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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - The cuts for the Sw/Sh dex were worse than even the most pessimistic predictions

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Cerebralbore101 said:
Runa216 said:

That's not what I'm doing! I'm one of those crazy people who has been saying for years that the national dex wasn't gonna last forever, and by the time it happens I could see them cutting out 75% of the total dex. I then went on to say that the dex could be added as DLC or an update later thanks to modern game dev cycles, but at the same time I know that'd just piss people off. 

Keeping all 900+ Pokemon in one game is ideal, sure, but it's not realistic. People who are complaining are getting angry that we don't live in a fantasy world. 

Don't get me wrong, if they did find a way to do it, I'd be fine with that. I'm not upset about this, though. I don't think anyone should be, and that those who are happen to be whiny, entitled brats. The Pokemon games have always been remarkably generous with us since 1999 (I think) when Gold/Silver came out, thus setting a precedent that had been followed. with Gold/Silver, we got an entirely massive postgame quest recreating much of Gen 1 plus the ability to import and play with over 250 Pokemon. this continued with gens 3 and 4, with 5 basically starting from scratch with 150 brand new 'mons (Which are to this day some of my favourite designs, Chandelure being one of them). They didn't HAVE to allow you to port forward other pokemon from the prior gen, but they did, and it was awesome. and Black/White 2 were equally awesome. 

Gens VI and VII were both lovely blends, and they didn't HAVE to let you bring forward every pokemon from prior gens, but they did. They never had to, but they did. Now, people think that it will always be like that despite the number of 'mons being over 800 now. It was impressive when we had 150 and even more impressive when that ballooned to more than 250. It's continued to be impressive until we got to where we are now, but anyone who expected the devs to continue giving us all the mons forever are being foolish and unreasonable. programming 'mons takes time and resources, and with them starting from scratch with new models and worlds, it's a pipe dream to think we'd get 900+ pokemon in this game. Assets take time and cost money, neither of which are infinite. 

I'm going in circles now, but holy hell some people think that they deserve the world. 

Tell ya what, you pay Nintendo/Gamefreak $100+ for the game (it's worth it, each of the prior games were stuffed to the brim with content enough to keep you busy for $100 worth of time), then maybe it'd be worth it or reasonable. 

Still sucks that Garchomp isn't in the new list (he was one of my goto 'mons) but it is what it is. So yeah, some people are ruining it, but some of us are being reasonable. 

I am one of the people that is dissapointed by the removal of the full dex. But at the same time, you have a point. So many games these days ask you to pay a DLC price for just a 25th or 30th character. Poke'mon comes with hundreds of characters. How many did Octopath have? Eight! How many characters are in Fire Emblem games, or Xenoblade, or Persona? 

I agree that no full dex sucks, (and is lazy) but at the same time, I think we as a community have forgotten how crazy it is to have an RPG with hundreds and hundreds of playable/usable characters. 

Oh, I'm also disappointed! I mean, I am losing my dear Garchomp! There are many Pokemon I love that didn't make the cut, but yeah...it just seems silly to keep expecting the world. 

Personally, I kinda like that it's a new, regional dex and no national dex. It allows me to upfront start from scratch. I legit earned every Pokemon (Sans like 4) from the first 802, and each new gen it's really nothing. Starting over on Switch is going to be amazing! Having a brand new game, semi-open world, new gameplay, more emphasis on competitive and co-op, etc? I love this. I really, really do. the ONLY thing that bugs me is that I can't import my team Day 1. It sucks that the team I've been breeding for IVs and training for EVs and upgrading their PP on all moves....I can't use them until Pokemon Home is Implemented, which means that, for all intents and purposes, I can't even paly the game till next year. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

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mZuzek said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

I am one of the people that is dissapointed by the removal of the full dex. But at the same time, you have a point. So many games these days ask you to pay a DLC price for just a 25th or 30th character. Poke'mon comes with hundreds of characters. How many did Octopath have? Eight! How many characters are in Fire Emblem games, or Xenoblade, or Persona? 

I agree that no full dex sucks, (and is lazy) but at the same time, I think we as a community have forgotten how crazy it is to have an RPG with hundreds and hundreds of playable/usable characters. 

And yet... it's perfectly feasible. The work is already done. The models are there. The animations are there. The sound effects are there. The stats and movesets are there. And, it was all there in previous games, games which were sold for $40. You're paying more for less, there's no way around it.

IT's also perfectly viable that, if you go to a restaurant, they just give you some extra fries or a bigger steak. IT's also completely viable to go to WalMart and buy a copy of Lord of the Rings...no reason you can't also walk out with The Hobbit without paying for it. 

Just becuase something's there, it doesn't mean you're entitled to it. Development costs time and money, and while they could fit it all or expand it or whatever, they chose not to in order to redirect their efforts elsewhere. There are a half dozen or so reasons I can think of off the top of my head why they chose to do it this way: 

1 - Maybe development was taking longer than they thought and had a deadline to meet and had to cut SOMETHING?

2 - Maybe they wanted to streamline the game and cut much of the redundant flack? 

3 - Maybe they couldn't fit it all on the card? 

4 - Maybe they knew they couldn't keep this up forever and consciously chose to make this the cutoff point?

5 - Maybe they felt they were giving away too much and just didn't want to put in the extra effort?

6 - Maybe they wanted to focus more on the new Mons and release the National Dex as DLC? (would suck, but would make sense from a business perspective.)

7 - Maybe they just didn't want to and are sick of it? 

8 - Maybe they ... 

You get the point. any combination of those reasons would make perfect sense to me. Again, kinda sucks that they chose to do this, but we don't know for sure what the reason is, we can only speculate. you can SAY 'the models are already made', but game content gets cut all the time. you can SAY 'they could add it and chose not to', but we don't know that and can't know for sure. You can assume all you want, but there could be reasons behind this that we don't know that explain it perfectly. why does it have to be malice or laziness? why do you chose to assume the worst? 

Personally, I do think it sucks that the national dex has been omitted and they won't be returning to it. The reality is that we got 20 years of the same dex being slowly built up over 7 generations of Pokemon spread across 4 game generations encompassing 802 different playable characters and just so, so, SO much content overall. The idea that a series can simply add to the franchise without taking away for so long is nice, but it was never going to be permanent. it was never going to last like that forever. The fact that you think it was and are acting like you are entitled to that generosity shows your complete and utter lack of understanding of game design, economics, and sustainability. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

mZuzek said:
Runa216 said:

Personally, I kinda like that it's a new, regional dex and no national dex. It allows me to upfront start from scratch.

This argument I simply don't understand.

Whatever happened to the regional dexes of Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova, Kalos and Alola.

What's there to not understand? Instead of simply adding to an existing, slowly-building dex, I can start all over in a new region. It means that, for the first time in a decade, I truly feel like I'm exploring a whole new world again! I can't just skip 90% of the pokemon because I already have them. This time I DON'T already have all the returning pokemon because the game doesn't have them all. To me, getting Charmander might actually be important, and I'll have to do all that stuff again with the breeding and evolving in a new place! 

I'm excited and this feels like Gen 1 again, in an odd way. If you chose not to look at it from that perspective, I understand that, but I love this. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

The newest information seems to indicate that the GTS has been cut from Sw/Sh too, and is likely going to be locked behind Pokemon Home when it eventually comes (effectively locked behind two subs, Home and NSO)... That's going to make getting version exclusives ridiculously hard at first (you'll be completely at somebody else's whims through Wonder Trade or have to have a friend with them to trade to you). That's some absolute shit. I'm used to GF doing the one step forward two steps back thing, but this is like two shuffles forward, five leaps back.



RingoGaSuki said:
The newest information seems to indicate that the GTS has been cut from Sw/Sh too, and is likely going to be locked behind Pokemon Home when it eventually comes (effectively locked behind two subs, Home and NSO)... That's going to make getting version exclusives ridiculously hard at first (you'll be completely at somebody else's whims through Wonder Trade or have to have a friend with them to trade to you). That's some absolute shit. I'm used to GF doing the one step forward two steps back thing, but this is like two shuffles forward, five leaps back.

I have a theory that Game Freak is being pushed into a corner after Pokemon Go made more money in a couple of years than all regular pokemon games combined. The Pokemon Co. sees mobile as the future and they are investing heavilly in mobile stuff, thus leaving GF in a weak position. So they are going to monetize this game way more than before.

The signs are there already: Mainline pokemon is an annual franchise since Sun/Moon (SM in 2016, USUM in 2017, Let's Go P/E in 2018, Sw/Sh in 2019), so they barely have time to do anything big anymore and they recycle more and more stuff from previous games, with USUM being a practical carbon copy of the game released a year before. Masuda accusing of today's mobile gamers of having little attention spams and thus not bothering to add most extra features. Sending your old pokemon to newer versions is now a paid privilege, first with Poke Bank and now with Pokemon Home...

This is going to go a lot worse before it gets better: if the game succeeds, the cuts will continue, and may even increase. If the game fails, the people at Pokemon Co. will increase their investment in mobile at the cost of traditional games. Either way, dark times are ahead. I'm not sure what Nintendo can do to preserve the quality of one of their biggest hardware sellers, if they can (or want) at all...

I just hope they don't dare to put the cut pokemons under a paid wall. That would be EA levels of greed.



You know it deserves the GOTY.

Come join The 2018 Obscure Game Monthly Review Thread.

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Darwinianevolution said:
RingoGaSuki said:
The newest information seems to indicate that the GTS has been cut from Sw/Sh too, and is likely going to be locked behind Pokemon Home when it eventually comes (effectively locked behind two subs, Home and NSO)... That's going to make getting version exclusives ridiculously hard at first (you'll be completely at somebody else's whims through Wonder Trade or have to have a friend with them to trade to you). That's some absolute shit. I'm used to GF doing the one step forward two steps back thing, but this is like two shuffles forward, five leaps back.

I have a theory that Game Freak is being pushed into a corner after Pokemon Go made more money in a couple of years than all regular pokemon games combined. The Pokemon Co. sees mobile as the future and they are investing heavilly in mobile stuff, thus leaving GF in a weak position. So they are going to monetize this game way more than before.

The signs are there already: Mainline pokemon is an annual franchise since Sun/Moon (SM in 2016, USUM in 2017, Let's Go P/E in 2018, Sw/Sh in 2019), so they barely have time to do anything big anymore and they recycle more and more stuff from previous games, with USUM being a practical carbon copy of the game released a year before. Masuda accusing of today's mobile gamers of having little attention spams and thus not bothering to add most extra features. Sending your old pokemon to newer versions is now a paid privilege, first with Poke Bank and now with Pokemon Home...

This is going to go a lot worse before it gets better: if the game succeeds, the cuts will continue, and may even increase. If the game fails, the people at Pokemon Co. will increase their investment in mobile at the cost of traditional games. Either way, dark times are ahead. I'm not sure what Nintendo can do to preserve the quality of one of their biggest hardware sellers, if they can (or want) at all...

I just hope they don't dare to put the cut pokemons under a paid wall. That would be EA levels of greed.

That's exactly what I think is happening too. They're afraid of being pushed out of their biggest money driver, as evidenced from their efforts to find something other than Pokemon to give them success, and the increasing casualisation of the main games in an effort to bring in similar levels of money to the mobile market.

They've never provided any substantial updates once a game has released before, so I really don't think the older Pokemon will come back, but if they do, I don't doubt for a second that it'd be monetised.



mZuzek said:
RingoGaSuki said:
The newest information seems to indicate that the GTS has been cut from Sw/Sh too, and is likely going to be locked behind Pokemon Home when it eventually comes (effectively locked behind two subs, Home and NSO)... That's going to make getting version exclusives ridiculously hard at first (you'll be completely at somebody else's whims through Wonder Trade or have to have a friend with them to trade to you). That's some absolute shit. I'm used to GF doing the one step forward two steps back thing, but this is like two shuffles forward, five leaps back.

Wait. Trading is locked behind NSO?

There's no confirmation on whether peer-to-peer (people you're Switch friends with) trading or wonder trading are available without NSO (signs point to it being required), but the GTS isn't in any in-game menu and so has likely just been cut from the games (and from there merged into the upcoming Home app)

EDIT: Scratch that, directly from the official SwSh website's trading page: "Membership in the Nintendo Switch Online (paid) service is required to participate in Link Trades and Link Battles using the internet. There’s no need to set up a membership for local communication use."

So yes, trading is locked behind NSO.

Last edited by RingoGaSuki - on 08 November 2019

RingoGaSuki said:
mZuzek said:

Wait. Trading is locked behind NSO?

There's no confirmation on whether peer-to-peer (people you're Switch friends with) trading or wonder trading are available without NSO (signs point to it being required), but the GTS isn't in any in-game menu and so has likely just been cut from the games (and from there merged into the upcoming Home app)

EDIT: Scratch that, directly from the official SwSh website's trading page: "Membership in the Nintendo Switch Online (paid) service is required to participate in Link Trades and Link Battles using the internet. There’s no need to set up a membership for local communication use."

So yes, trading is locked behind NSO.

I sort of expected this, It makes sense tho from a business perspective. Online trading - and the GTS overall - is part of the "multiplayer" features of the game so to speak and it does seems they just want to squeeze whatever amount of money they can out of this game.  
Still... as a player, well, fuck. 



The Pokemon Sw/Sh launch event in Japan was cancelled for "operational reasons"
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-11-08-pokemon-sword-and-shield-launch-event-in-japan-cancelled-for-operational-reasons



Darwinianevolution said:
RingoGaSuki said:
The newest information seems to indicate that the GTS has been cut from Sw/Sh too, and is likely going to be locked behind Pokemon Home when it eventually comes (effectively locked behind two subs, Home and NSO)... That's going to make getting version exclusives ridiculously hard at first (you'll be completely at somebody else's whims through Wonder Trade or have to have a friend with them to trade to you). That's some absolute shit. I'm used to GF doing the one step forward two steps back thing, but this is like two shuffles forward, five leaps back.

I have a theory that Game Freak is being pushed into a corner after Pokemon Go made more money in a couple of years than all regular pokemon games combined. The Pokemon Co. sees mobile as the future and they are investing heavilly in mobile stuff, thus leaving GF in a weak position. So they are going to monetize this game way more than before.

The signs are there already: Mainline pokemon is an annual franchise since Sun/Moon (SM in 2016, USUM in 2017, Let's Go P/E in 2018, Sw/Sh in 2019), so they barely have time to do anything big anymore and they recycle more and more stuff from previous games, with USUM being a practical carbon copy of the game released a year before. Masuda accusing of today's mobile gamers of having little attention spams and thus not bothering to add most extra features. Sending your old pokemon to newer versions is now a paid privilege, first with Poke Bank and now with Pokemon Home...

This is going to go a lot worse before it gets better: if the game succeeds, the cuts will continue, and may even increase. If the game fails, the people at Pokemon Co. will increase their investment in mobile at the cost of traditional games. Either way, dark times are ahead. I'm not sure what Nintendo can do to preserve the quality of one of their biggest hardware sellers, if they can (or want) at all...

I just hope they don't dare to put the cut pokemons under a paid wall. That would be EA levels of greed.

Why? Why would that be a bad thing? Why are you entitled to content from past games? You wouldn't go into a game like Mariokart and say "Harumph, I hope they don't charge me to play my old tracks in this game" would you? No, becuase that'd be stupid. If they're remaking content for the new game, it has value and thus it would make sense to charge for it. 

I'm gonna appropriate the term "Ok Boomer" to "Ok Gamer" to the same intended effect. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android