By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Barack Obama powerslams Woke culture

For me, both sides misrepresent the gender gap. One side overestimates the issue, the other underestimates.

@pokoko, excellent point(s). Agreed.  Though I would argue the inability to do a 1:1 comparison was driven by women not being viewed as capable of certain jobs.  I'm deep in the STEM fields.  In the last 14 years, the field has changed drastically for the better.  We are making improvements.  But we shouldn't pretend that 20-30 years ago women were encouraged to stay out of the STEM.    



Around the Network
Chrkeller said:

For me, both sides misrepresent the gender gap. One side overestimates the issue, the other underestimates.

@pokoko, excellent point(s). Agreed.  Though I would argue the inability to do a 1:1 comparison was driven by women not being viewed as capable of certain jobs.  I'm deep in the STEM fields.  In the last 14 years, the field has changed drastically for the better.  We are making improvements.  But we shouldn't pretend that 20-30 years ago women were encouraged to stay out of the STEM.    

The reason why women choose not to go into STEM fields is largely due to biological factors. Psychological studies have determined that the biggest difference between men and women (psychologically) is interest. Men are far more interested (generally speaking) in objects, whilst women are far more interested (generally speaking) in people. This is why you largely see women overrepresented in healthcare fields and others such as HR, while men gravitate towards STEM fields.

The social constructionists have insisted for ages that it is social engineering that has pushed women away from STEM fields, but the data indicate that this is not the case. The Scandinavian countries are the most gender neutral countries in the world and the difference in occupational choice between men and women in these countries is greatest of anywhere on the planet. It is the exact opposite of what the social constructionists predicted. The more egalitarian your country, the greater the differences between men and women manifest themselves.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/

Last edited by TonsofPuppies - on 31 October 2019

Chrkeller said:

For me, both sides misrepresent the gender gap. One side overestimates the issue, the other underestimates.

@pokoko, excellent point(s). Agreed.  Though I would argue the inability to do a 1:1 comparison was driven by women not being viewed as capable of certain jobs.  I'm deep in the STEM fields.  In the last 14 years, the field has changed drastically for the better.  We are making improvements.  But we shouldn't pretend that 20-30 years ago women were encouraged to stay out of the STEM.    

I can attest to that. Although i dont have that much time in the field as you do. I can at least say to my college experience. it was at least 75% men. certain mayors had zero women like mechanical engineering, while others like industrial engineering had like 50%. in mine that was electronics and communications, it was maybe that 75% men, maybe more. But one thing was clear in all those mayors, the perceived line of work. Industrial was seen more as a business type, while mechanical was more manual type.  And in cases like mine, where we could choose jobs in either electronics or communications focused, all the women at least the ones with me went the communications route and I have to say that it is more of an office type off work place while electronics was more a lab type of work place.That alone would explain the discrepancies in what women and men chose. 

I just wanted to add that, just to clarify that even in STEM, even in very same mayors, not all jobs are the same and as such they can also pay different. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Chrkeller said:

For me, both sides misrepresent the gender gap. One side overestimates the issue, the other underestimates.

@pokoko, excellent point(s). Agreed.  Though I would argue the inability to do a 1:1 comparison was driven by women not being viewed as capable of certain jobs.  I'm deep in the STEM fields.  In the last 14 years, the field has changed drastically for the better.  We are making improvements.  But we shouldn't pretend that 20-30 years ago women were encouraged to stay out of the STEM.    

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this because I don't ever envision the same number of women as men applying to heavy industrial positions that are dangerous and physically demanding.  I just don't.  

I used to work in the paper industry so I know a lot of loggers.  Personally, there is no way I'd work that job.  It's brutal.  You're basically telling me that it's a male dominated profession only because of bias but I just don't buy that.

Pay gap comparisons should be based on like professions.  That's the only way it's going to give us useful information.  Otherwise, it's just a misleading number used for propaganda purposes.  If an industry is unfairly excluding women from employment then that should be a separate issue with its own spotlight.  Mixing all that together just muddies the water.



pokoko said:
Chrkeller said:

For me, both sides misrepresent the gender gap. One side overestimates the issue, the other underestimates.

@pokoko, excellent point(s). Agreed.  Though I would argue the inability to do a 1:1 comparison was driven by women not being viewed as capable of certain jobs.  I'm deep in the STEM fields.  In the last 14 years, the field has changed drastically for the better.  We are making improvements.  But we shouldn't pretend that 20-30 years ago women were encouraged to stay out of the STEM.    

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this because I don't ever envision the same number of women as men applying to heavy industrial positions that are dangerous and physically demanding.  I just don't.  

I used to work in the paper industry so I know a lot of loggers.  Personally, there is no way I'd work that job.  It's brutal.  You're basically telling me that it's a male dominated profession only because of bias but I just don't buy that.

Pay gap comparisons should be based on like professions.  That's the only way it's going to give us useful information.  Otherwise, it's just a misleading number used for propaganda purposes.  If an industry is unfairly excluding women from employment then that should be a separate issue with its own spotlight.  Mixing all that together just muddies the water.

STEM is mostly desk jobs.  Most aren't industrial manual labor.  I work side by side with engineers daily.  I rarely leave my office.  The other point, 14 years ago maybe 10% of STEM coworkers were female.  Fast forward and I would say that is 30% today.  It has changed.  There is an interest driven by having the opportunity.  The biological argument that women aren't interested in STEM is complete and utter bull****, at least here in the States.  I can't speak about other countries, given I don't live there.  My daughter is beyond interested in STEM.  So are 30% of my coworkers.  STEM and manual labor are absolutely not the same thing.  Back in the 70s expectations for women were greatly different when compared to men.  This has changed, and we are seeing the results.  Gender bias was absolutely a real thing.  Heck my mother, when my twins were born, literally said they don't have to go to college because they can marry a man.  She is a product of her generation.  Again, I can't speak about other countries, but in the States...  yeah, it has changed.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 31 October 2019

Around the Network
Chrkeller said:
pokoko said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this because I don't ever envision the same number of women as men applying to heavy industrial positions that are dangerous and physically demanding.  I just don't.  

I used to work in the paper industry so I know a lot of loggers.  Personally, there is no way I'd work that job.  It's brutal.  You're basically telling me that it's a male dominated profession only because of bias but I just don't buy that.

Pay gap comparisons should be based on like professions.  That's the only way it's going to give us useful information.  Otherwise, it's just a misleading number used for propaganda purposes.  If an industry is unfairly excluding women from employment then that should be a separate issue with its own spotlight.  Mixing all that together just muddies the water.

STEM is mostly desk jobs.  Most aren't industrial manual labor.  I work side by side with engineers daily.  I rarely leave my office.  The other point, 14 years ago maybe 10% of STEM coworkers were female.  Fast forward and I would say that is 30% today.  It has changed.  There is an interest driven by having the opportunity.  The biological argument that women aren't interested in STEM is complete and utter bull****, at least here in the States.  I can't speak about other countries, given I don't live there.  My daughter is beyond interested in STEM.  So are 30% of my coworkers.  STEM and manual labor are absolutely not the same thing.  Back in the 70s expectations for women were greatly different when compared to men.  This has changed, and we are seeing the results.  Gender bias was absolutely a real thing.  Heck my mother, when my twins were born, literally said they don't have to go to college because they can marry a man.  She is a product of her generation.  Again, I can't speak about other countries, but in the States...  yeah, it has changed.  

You're acting as though more women entering the workplace in past 50 years is exclusive to STEM fields. There is more female representation across ALL professions than there was 50-60 years ago. The creation of birth control in the 1960s played a massive role in freeing women from some of their "biological shackles" and thus allowing far more women to enter the workplace.



TonsofPuppies said:
Chrkeller said:

STEM is mostly desk jobs.  Most aren't industrial manual labor.  I work side by side with engineers daily.  I rarely leave my office.  The other point, 14 years ago maybe 10% of STEM coworkers were female.  Fast forward and I would say that is 30% today.  It has changed.  There is an interest driven by having the opportunity.  The biological argument that women aren't interested in STEM is complete and utter bull****, at least here in the States.  I can't speak about other countries, given I don't live there.  My daughter is beyond interested in STEM.  So are 30% of my coworkers.  STEM and manual labor are absolutely not the same thing.  Back in the 70s expectations for women were greatly different when compared to men.  This has changed, and we are seeing the results.  Gender bias was absolutely a real thing.  Heck my mother, when my twins were born, literally said they don't have to go to college because they can marry a man.  She is a product of her generation.  Again, I can't speak about other countries, but in the States...  yeah, it has changed.  

You're acting as though more women entering the workplace in past 50 years is exclusive to STEM fields. There is more female representation across ALL professions than there was 50-60 years ago. The creation of birth control in the 1960s played a massive role in freeing women from some of their "biological shackles" and thus allowing far more women to enter the workplace.

I'm not acting like anything.  I am using STEM as an example because that is my bread and butter.  I can speak about it directly.  I simply cannot about other fields.  I would assume we are seeing similar results in others fields. 



Chrkeller said:
pokoko said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this because I don't ever envision the same number of women as men applying to heavy industrial positions that are dangerous and physically demanding.  I just don't.  

I used to work in the paper industry so I know a lot of loggers.  Personally, there is no way I'd work that job.  It's brutal.  You're basically telling me that it's a male dominated profession only because of bias but I just don't buy that.

Pay gap comparisons should be based on like professions.  That's the only way it's going to give us useful information.  Otherwise, it's just a misleading number used for propaganda purposes.  If an industry is unfairly excluding women from employment then that should be a separate issue with its own spotlight.  Mixing all that together just muddies the water.

STEM is mostly desk jobs.  Most aren't industrial manual labor.  I work side by side with engineers daily.  I rarely leave my office.  The other point, 14 years ago maybe 10% of STEM coworkers were female.  Fast forward and I would say that is 30% today.  It has changed.  There is an interest driven by having the opportunity.  The biological argument that women aren't interested in STEM is complete and utter bull****, at least here in the States.  I can't speak about other countries, given I don't live there.  My daughter is beyond interested in STEM.  So are 30% of my coworkers.  STEM and manual labor are absolutely not the same thing.  Back in the 70s expectations for women were greatly different when compared to men.  This has changed, and we are seeing the results.  Gender bias was absolutely a real thing.  Heck my mother, when my twins were born, literally said they don't have to go to college because they can marry a man.  She is a product of her generation.  Again, I can't speak about other countries, but in the States...  yeah, it has changed.  

Like I said before, not all jobs are the same even amont same professions. Even doctors. You cant compare an ER doctor to a gynecologis. While both are indor safe and all that, they demand very diferent work. An ER doctor is way more intensive, riskier, longer hours, and so on, while a gynecologis is way, way way more relaxed as the number of medical emergencies for a gynecologies is almost none, while for ER is the very definition of the job.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

TonsofPuppies said:
Chrkeller said:

STEM is mostly desk jobs.  Most aren't industrial manual labor.  I work side by side with engineers daily.  I rarely leave my office.  The other point, 14 years ago maybe 10% of STEM coworkers were female.  Fast forward and I would say that is 30% today.  It has changed.  There is an interest driven by having the opportunity.  The biological argument that women aren't interested in STEM is complete and utter bull****, at least here in the States.  I can't speak about other countries, given I don't live there.  My daughter is beyond interested in STEM.  So are 30% of my coworkers.  STEM and manual labor are absolutely not the same thing.  Back in the 70s expectations for women were greatly different when compared to men.  This has changed, and we are seeing the results.  Gender bias was absolutely a real thing.  Heck my mother, when my twins were born, literally said they don't have to go to college because they can marry a man.  She is a product of her generation.  Again, I can't speak about other countries, but in the States...  yeah, it has changed.  

You're acting as though more women entering the workplace in past 50 years is exclusive to STEM fields. There is more female representation across ALL professions than there was 50-60 years ago. The creation of birth control in the 1960s played a massive role in freeing women from some of their "biological shackles" and thus allowing far more women to enter the workplace.

100%. This is also the biggest factor in the pay gap. women are new to these fields, all they men that where in charge and dominated the field dint just disappear so at every industries its why its usually old guys in charge making the big bucks. so while up until like the mid 30's, we have good representations in most fields, but these big bosses are usually people in their 50's or 60's and in those times it was primarily men who did all jobs, not just high paying jobs.Eventually there will be old women in those positions. I dont think theres much more we can do to accelerate this. Just let time do its thing. in 10-20 years when the old men pass on the flag, they will have both men and women who have as much experience to choose from. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Chrkeller said:
pokoko said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this because I don't ever envision the same number of women as men applying to heavy industrial positions that are dangerous and physically demanding.  I just don't.  

I used to work in the paper industry so I know a lot of loggers.  Personally, there is no way I'd work that job.  It's brutal.  You're basically telling me that it's a male dominated profession only because of bias but I just don't buy that.

Pay gap comparisons should be based on like professions.  That's the only way it's going to give us useful information.  Otherwise, it's just a misleading number used for propaganda purposes.  If an industry is unfairly excluding women from employment then that should be a separate issue with its own spotlight.  Mixing all that together just muddies the water.

STEM is mostly desk jobs.  Most aren't industrial manual labor.  I work side by side with engineers daily.  I rarely leave my office.  The other point, 14 years ago maybe 10% of STEM coworkers were female.  Fast forward and I would say that is 30% today.  It has changed.  There is an interest driven by having the opportunity.  The biological argument that women aren't interested in STEM is complete and utter bull****, at least here in the States.  I can't speak about other countries, given I don't live there.  My daughter is beyond interested in STEM.  So are 30% of my coworkers.  STEM and manual labor are absolutely not the same thing.  Back in the 70s expectations for women were greatly different when compared to men.  This has changed, and we are seeing the results.  Gender bias was absolutely a real thing.  Heck my mother, when my twins were born, literally said they don't have to go to college because they can marry a man.  She is a product of her generation.  Again, I can't speak about other countries, but in the States...  yeah, it has changed.  

I'm ... not sure why you keep mentioning STEM when I'm talking about heavy industrial professions providing a natural discrepancy in career path comparisons.  If anything, you're reinforcing my point that all these professions shouldn't be lumped together.