By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Movies & TV - Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker final trailer

Immersiveunreality on 31 October 2019
Shadow1980 said:
KLAMarine said:

Don't wanna call her a Mary Sue? Fine. I'll settle for calling her an awful character.

If you just don't like her, that's fine. My problem is with the hyperbole coming from some people. They confuse "Character I don't like" or "character I think is poorly written" with "Mary Sue" if the character is powerful or displays any sort of competence. Being powerful doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Neither does being skilled, especially if the skills are not unusual and can be easily justified in-story. The term Mary Sue is meant to apply to characters, almost always self-inserts/"author avatars," who are idealized to an absurd degree and are nominally flawless. It originated from a parody of self-insert Star Trek fanfiction from the early 70s. But in today's internet culture the term just gets abused.

Immersiveunreality said:

Thanks for the effort put into that response.

First bolded:

But did you not say the people that badly criticized the movie in bad faith are a minority,the last jedi did not have that many more userreviews than the force awakens so do you really think 200000 + people (reviews from rotten tomatoes) just switched to being in bad faith after giving good ratings to the first movie ? I know that those are not always the same people but why did so many people that liked the first movie not make an effort OR rated this movie lesser than the previous one? It might have been partly affected by reviewbombing indeed but that mostly happens when a product is bad in first place.

Second bolded:

Yet the Black panther movie got overall good ratings so people did atleast find that movie good enough to give it a good rating in general aside from the reviewbombers.(that are not so effective when a movie is good in first place)

Third:

Yes the movie rating are better where there are less user ratings so that is that and the median score being 7/10 on other(less popular by the mainstream pool of star wars fans) rating mediums,yes that is understandable imo because i would give it that rating myself while finding it a flawed movie.

Fourth:

But how can that vocal minority outweigh those plenty of users have that given the movie prior to it good critique?A vocal minority of extremists protesting in scoring reviews online should not be that effective compared to the better scores if it actually was a good Star Wars movie and the example for that you could see on the Black Panther movie scorings.

Fifth:

Yes some people behave like that but it is of no use to assume that same behaviour/thoughts goes for the people that try to be fair in their critique and there are lots of them if you attempt to actually read what they try to put down in their reviews.You should not take the extreme seriously but do not let it blind you from the others that have less extreme opinions and please do not bind them together.

Sixth:

Case by case scenario,always needing to "dig in it" to know what it is about.

On a side note:

"get woke go broke" and "anti sjw" + the sensitivity against anything that contains Brie Larson has a reason but you do not always have to focus on the extremity of it to think that is what motivates most people believing in it,i dislike anti sjw people and i like them also so it just depends on the person in question.

The thing is, Rotten Tomatoes has admitted that TLJ was subject to review bombing after the fiasco that was the review-bombing of Captain Marvel and RT's subsequent attempts to counter review bombing. Review bombing has always existed as a form of protest, most frequently with video games. Maybe large enough groups of people don't like a particular series (Call of Duty always gets this treatment on Metacritic; usually decent reviews from critics but destroyed by vocal detractors in the audience) or they don't approve of something the publisher did, like adding loot boxes to a game or not porting a game to their platform of choice. In today's internet culture wars, it's also become a venue for bad-faith actors to attempt to sabotage works they don't like for political reasons.

While there are no doubt people who just don't like The Last Jedi or Captain Marvel or the new Watchmen series on a purely artistic basis or because it doesn't meet their preferences as fans, there are far too many people out there giving lowest-possible scores and leaving commentary complaining about "SJW propaganda, "feminist agendas," "forced diversity," and the like. In fact, I would think people would be far more motivated to leave negative reviews for political reasons than for non-political reasons. Audiences liking movies that most critics thought were average to bad isn't anything unusual (and as I've said before there's nothing wrong with treating a bad movie as just dumb fun; there's a reason "so bad it's good" is a concept that exists). But it's much rarer for movies that were loved by critics and popular with general audiences to get severely panned at places that allow user reviews, and in recent years it seems like it's increasingly due to political reasons and not the artistic merits of the work in question.

In certain circumstances, it pays to be skeptical of audience review scores, especially when there's clear evidence of review bombing a popular and critically lauded work, and doubly so if there are significant amounts of people angry for political reasons. The aggregate audience score is extremely unlikely to be an objective assessment of the actual artistic merits of the work in question, while the professional critics' score is more likely to give a better picture of how good the film is. As with liking bad films, not liking a good film is normal. Not everything clicks with everyone. I know people who legitimately are put off by entire genres, like horror or sci-fi. While there is no accounting for taste, there is accounting for people acting in bad faith.

Bolded:The thing is that trash article from The Verge (As expected,similar trash articles appeared on polygon like usual as journalists fail at being professional and act as halfbaked activists)is about nothing and tells us Rotten Tomatoes did not admit that. The only thing happening within that article is that blogger playing with words.Those people live in bubble's and everyone with critique to them or their ideology is a "hater" or "alt righter"  in their minds.

Oh look,a quote about what a rep from Rotten Tomatoes is saying about it:

“For  star wars the last jedi we have seen an uptick in people posting written user reviews, as fans are very passionate about this movie and the franchise,” a Rotten Tomatoes rep said, but the number of written reviews being posted by fans is comparable to 2015’s “Star Wars: The Force Awakens.”

“The authenticity of our critic and user scores is very important to Rotten Tomatoes and as a course of regular business, we have a team of security, network, social and database experts who closely monitor our platforms,” the rep added.

(Can you find an article on The Verge about that one?)

That is also what i said in my previous post(number of ratings compared to previous movie),really take your time and try to read some user reviews for yourself and you will see a lot of reasonable reviews not by haters but people talking with a critical approach.

Second bolded: You focus too much on people thinking it was bad because of the feminism,sjw,diversity because most of all people disliked it for just being a badly put together movie,visually impressive and it has a decent casting but eh it does kinda end there?The right kind of feminism it would have liked is actually giving the female actors better screentime like Gwendoline Christie she can be so amazing and did not get the chance,what a waste of potential.

IMO It just in itself is a flawed movie outside of all the political bs.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 03 November 2019

Around the Network
Lonely_Dolphin on 03 November 2019
Immersiveunreality said:

You focus too much on people thinking it was bad because of the feminism,sjw,diversity

Of course he does, anything to distract from acknowledging the movie's flaws. Notice how he completely dropped talking about the movie itself, instead sidestepping into irrelevant tangents like review scores and the definition of mary sue. He and other apologist desperately want to believe it's a good movie, so they'll believe it's hated with invalid criticisms and ignore everything that proves otherwise.



EnricoPallazzo on 03 November 2019

I hope that in this movie the non white male characters are given good plots/scripts because if those are bad, criticising it labels people as nazis, neckbeards and etc.



thismeintiel on 03 November 2019
Lonely_Dolphin said:
Immersiveunreality said:

You focus too much on people thinking it was bad because of the feminism,sjw,diversity

Of course he does, anything to distract from acknowledging the movie's flaws. Notice how he completely dropped talking about the movie itself, instead sidestepping into irrelevant tangents like review scores and the definition of mary sue. He and other apologist desperately want to believe it's a good movie, so they'll believe it's hated with invalid criticisms and ignore everything that proves otherwise.

The irony is that people keep trying to say that others only had problems with it because of politics, when it appears to me that people only want to defend it on the grounds of politics.  That's what seems to be the overwhelming go to when they have no defense of the film.  "Neckbeards only have a problem with it because of strong women and/or minority."  Of course, they ignore the hour plus vids that go into detail about everything wrong with the flick, while only giving social politics a short mention.  I do have to say, it is freaking hilarious to hear anyone talk of neckbeards condescendingly, as they live on both sides of the political spectrum.

Oh, and I looked up the definition of a Mary Sue.  All that was there was a picture of Rey.



 

Chrkeller on 03 November 2019

I enjoyed Force and Last, looking forward to the third. Though who hated the path Disney took SW, good for them. Doesn't matter to me what others think.



Around the Network
starcraft on 03 November 2019
thismeintiel said:
Lonely_Dolphin said:

Of course he does, anything to distract from acknowledging the movie's flaws. Notice how he completely dropped talking about the movie itself, instead sidestepping into irrelevant tangents like review scores and the definition of mary sue. He and other apologist desperately want to believe it's a good movie, so they'll believe it's hated with invalid criticisms and ignore everything that proves otherwise.

The irony is that people keep trying to say that others only had problems with it because of politics, when it appears to me that people only want to defend it on the grounds of politics.  That's what seems to be the overwhelming go to when they have no defense of the film.  "Neckbeards only have a problem with it because of strong women and/or minority."  Of course, they ignore the hour plus vids that go into detail about everything wrong with the flick, while only giving social politics a short mention.  I do have to say, it is freaking hilarious to hear anyone talk of neckbeards condescendingly, as they live on both sides of the political spectrum.

Oh, and I looked up the definition of a Mary Sue.  All that was there was a picture of Rey.

If you're watching hours-long videos about everything wrong with the movie, I am not surprised you don't like it. 

Interesting you raise Mary Sue here though. The concept has long been co-opted by misogynistic elements to tarnish characters that are 'competent-while-female'. I don't know you, and I appreciate you're adamant that is not your intent. But you shouldn't be surprised when you firmly define Rey as a Mary Sue despite there being at worst significant debate on the point and at best significant evidence she is not a Mary Sue, that people question whether you've a politicised bent to your criticism of TLJ.



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

thismeintiel on 03 November 2019
starcraft said:
thismeintiel said:

The irony is that people keep trying to say that others only had problems with it because of politics, when it appears to me that people only want to defend it on the grounds of politics.  That's what seems to be the overwhelming go to when they have no defense of the film.  "Neckbeards only have a problem with it because of strong women and/or minority."  Of course, they ignore the hour plus vids that go into detail about everything wrong with the flick, while only giving social politics a short mention.  I do have to say, it is freaking hilarious to hear anyone talk of neckbeards condescendingly, as they live on both sides of the political spectrum.

Oh, and I looked up the definition of a Mary Sue.  All that was there was a picture of Rey.

If you're watching hours-long videos about everything wrong with the movie, I am not surprised you don't like it. 

Interesting you raise Mary Sue here though. The concept has long been co-opted by misogynistic elements to tarnish characters that are 'competent-while-female'. I don't know you, and I appreciate you're adamant that is not your intent. But you shouldn't be surprised when you firmly define Rey as a Mary Sue despite there being at worst significant debate on the point and at best significant evidence she is not a Mary Sue, that people question whether you've a politicised bent to your criticism of TLJ.

We watch those vids because we already disliked the film and wanted to watch vids from people who agreed with us and, for some, who could verbalize it better than they could.

She's not competent, she's godly.  And that is boring.  Especially when we have already followed two other Jedi go through hardships and training to become what they are.  When you have a character who just walks up and is like, "stand down those before me, I'll show how this is done" without earning it, they are a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. 

And, yes, regardless of what you wish to believe, people would have the exact same problems if the character was a male.  In fact, those same criticisms started to pop up with Ep 1 and Anakin being space Jesus.  Surprisingly, Lucas didn't just call those critics male hating bigots and push the Gary Stu elements even more, he toned it down.  He needed to go through years of training with Obi Wan.  He got his ass handed to him by Count Dooku the first time.  Only in the 3rd film, after years of training is he near his strongest.  And even then, Obi Wan defeats him.  We see a similar path with Luke.  By the end of Ep 7, Rey is already almost at her strongest, without any training.  It's lore destroying and, like I said above, just plain boring.

So, yea, it's like I said, we can give you countless reasons the film is bad, but you will not take any note of them.  Instead, you continually step back into the "you only hate it because of wahmen."  If you actually have legit defense, try to give them, not fall back on a strawman.



 

Lonely_Dolphin on 03 November 2019
starcraft said:

The concept has long been co-opted by misogynistic elements to tarnish characters that are 'competent-while-female'.

That's the first time I've ever heard such nonsense that pretends the term can't also be applied to males. Anakin, certainly in episode 1 atleast, was a Gary Stu. He was also great at everything and encountered no set backs. Wasn't until episode 2 that he starts losing and needing saving.

I think most people, even the politically obsessed know this, but either way that's not why they question. No matter what you say, even if you don't use the term mary-sue, they will question if your criticism is political because the point is to distract and avoid acknowledging the movies flaws. The political stances one has doesn't make their criticisms anymore or less valid, so there's no other purpose bringing it up. That Holdo and Leia's plan was stupid wont be made any less true even if a racist sexist homophobe were the one saying it.



chakkra on 03 November 2019
Lonely_Dolphin said:
starcraft said:

The concept has long been co-opted by misogynistic elements to tarnish characters that are 'competent-while-female'.

That's the first time I've ever heard such nonsense that pretends the term can't also be applied to males. Anakin, certainly in episode 1 atleast, was a Gary Stu. He was also great at everything and encountered no set backs. Wasn't until episode 2 that he starts losing and needing saving.

I think most people, even the politically obsessed know this, but either way that's not why they question. No matter what you say, even if you don't use the term mary-sue, they will question if your criticism is political because the point is to distract and avoid acknowledging the movies flaws. The political stances one has doesn't make their criticisms anymore or less valid, so there's no other purpose bringing it up. That Holdo and Leia's plan was stupid wont be made any less true even if a racist sexist homophobe were the one saying it.

Amen to that!



d21lewis on 04 November 2019
thismeintiel said:
starcraft said:

If you're watching hours-long videos about everything wrong with the movie, I am not surprised you don't like it. 

Interesting you raise Mary Sue here though. The concept has long been co-opted by misogynistic elements to tarnish characters that are 'competent-while-female'. I don't know you, and I appreciate you're adamant that is not your intent. But you shouldn't be surprised when you firmly define Rey as a Mary Sue despite there being at worst significant debate on the point and at best significant evidence she is not a Mary Sue, that people question whether you've a politicised bent to your criticism of TLJ.

We watch those vids because we already disliked the film and wanted to watch vids from people who agreed with us and, for some, who could verbalize it better than they could.

She's not competent, she's godly.  And that is boring.  Especially when we have already followed two other Jedi go through hardships and training to become what they are.  When you have a character who just walks up and is like, "stand down those before me, I'll show how this is done" without earning it, they are a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. 

And, yes, regardless of what you wish to believe, people would have the exact same problems if the character was a male.  In fact, those same criticisms started to pop up with Ep 1 and Anakin being space Jesus.  Surprisingly, Lucas didn't just call those critics male hating bigots and push the Gary Stu elements even more, he toned it down.  He needed to go through years of training with Obi Wan.  He got his ass handed to him by Count Dooku the first time.  Only in the 3rd film, after years of training is he near his strongest.  And even then, Obi Wan defeats him.  We see a similar path with Luke.  By the end of Ep 7, Rey is already almost at her strongest, without any training.  It's lore destroying and, like I said above, just plain boring.

So, yea, it's like I said, we can give you countless reasons the film is bad, but you will not take any note of them.  Instead, you continually step back into the "you only hate it because of wahmen."  If you actually have legit defense, try to give them, not fall back on a strawman.

Basically this. I stopped arguing with people over this film long ago. I was there on opening day, truly excited because of the reviews saying "The best Star Wars of them all". I was looking forward to being surprised, seeing where the franchise would go and what would happen to the characters. I remained hopeful throughout the film until I finally told myself "This just isn't good." I walked out of the theater feeling kinda empty. Like "What the hell did I just watch? Where is this story going? Is there even a story at all?"

The more I thought about it, the more I disliked the film. None of that feeling of "I can't wait to see what happens next!" remained. TLJ killed that for me. Watching videos and having discussions helped me articulate exactly what it was that didn't feel right about this film. They supported my opinion instead of manipulating them--though I've yet to see one that I totally agree with in every aspect...

But as far as trying to tell someone else why the film sucks? I'm done with that. They want to like/love it. That's on them. They don't want to hear reasons. Our opinion is as worthless to them as theirs is to me. We like what we like.

And, of course, I'll be right there when the new one launches hoping I get the feeling of satisfaction that comes from a good story with good villains, character development, conflict, heroes, and depth. Plus some shooty shooty bang bang and laser swords.

Last edited by d21lewis - on 04 November 2019