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Should Nintendo double down on working with "AA" studios

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Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

No, Halo 1 and 2 don't actually look bad. I would argue they've aged better than most 6th gen games. I don't want to elaborate too much on why people actually prefer classic graphics over the remaster graphics, but classic graphics are fine even in glorious 4K.

They really don't. They look terrible in 2019 as we are on the cusp of entering a fully Ray Traced world.

Plus Microsoft seems to also agree, hence why they overhauled Halo 1 and 2's visuals.

Mr Puggsly said:

MCC's muliplayer has been fixed for like a year now. Regardless, the MP was tolerable even before the major fixes and its still active.

Only took them how many years to get to that point though? Tolerable isn't good enough, not from a first party AAA release.
They are still of course patching and improving the experience, even today. In 2019.

At least we can't criticize them for the level of committed support though, more companies should take heed. *Cough*EA*Cough*

Mr Puggsly said:

I actually like the visuals in Gears 1. It has a more gritty presentation than future releases starting with 3. The remaster was basically updated graphics and it reviewed well. On a side note, you ever played Fable Anniversary? The original game actually looked better.

Gears 1 is every shade of brown. Gritty is one thing, but at that time a ton of games were pushing an overly-brown aesthetic... It's textures are low-res, bloom is overblown and unrealistic, it's successors in the franchise significantly improved things in every direction, which has helped make it one of the most defining games of the Xbox platform... There is a reason why I praise Gears 5 so highly, it has a lush colour pallet.

And yes, I have played and own Fable Anniversary. - The PC variant of course looks the best out of all the releases.

Mr Puggsly said:

I haven't checked Halo Wars online population recently, but it was still active when I played over a year ago. It also sold very well on Steam, it has 89% positive reviews there.

Compared to PC RTS titles, it's still average.
Halo Wars has no population on PC.

Even the Xbox version hasn't got any players, probably why Microsoft shuttered support for the leaderboards and such and the population counters are erroneous.

Mr Puggsly said:

Many N64 games aged worse, but they are older, experimental games relatively speaking.

I'm looking at PS1 era FF games for their core gameplay. Not the presentation. Problems aside, I still think they aged well.

For me the tank controls of RE was always a deal breaker. The first game I really played in the series was actually RE5 on 360 and then RE4 on a Gamecube.

Resident Evil 5 was definitely my pick of the franchise, but the first game arguably laid the initial foundations that brought us Resident Evil 5, hence why it needs to take some credit.

Mr Puggsly said:

In regard to our 8 bit and 16 bit discussion. I'll start by saying most games on most platforms were shit until around the 7th gen where quality of the average game quality became higher. Although, the Wii had a ton of shit.

Many 16-bit and 8-bit games are amazing even today... To the point where modern games are trying to "emulate" the look and feel such as Minecraft or 8-bit adventures. - But I think 2D games tend to age differently than rasterized titles.

Mr Puggsly said:

If I were to create a list of the best shooters ever, CoD1, 2, 3 or 4 wouldn't be in it. I think they're all okay games, but nothing special. I don't see them as worth revisiting because the gameplay is simplistic and story isn't engaging (maybe BLOPS1 and 2 for story). I almost see them as sports games, maybe just go play the newest one if you are there for MP. Although, Infinite Warfare had a great campaign.

You are missing the point.
I am not trying to paint any of the Call of Duty games as an amazing game.

I am trying to paint a picture that modern games that take modern design principles, often enabled by superior/improved hardware will often have an edge over their older contemporary's... Call of Duty is a fine example as we can see the yearly evolution of changes being introduced into the franchise, good or bad.

Mr Puggsly said:

I see Perfect Dark and Goldeneye as interesting games for level design really, it was also interesting for shooters to feel like you're controlling a person versus a floating camera. They aren't linear experiences like many modern games, you can make mistakes that fails a mission, so that makes them unique still. But if you're struggling with the controls and the performance is dog shit like on N64, it pulls you out of the experience. Hence, the core games aged well but sometimes need newer hardware to fix the controls and performance.

The Xbox 360 release of Perfect Dark didn't fix some of the games design philosophies though, various nuances of the game engine simply held back design choices.

Mr Puggsly said:

Edit: I didn't even respond to the Oceania MP thing. All I can say is... USA, USA, USA!

Oceania tends to get lumped onto American servers.

You think I am saying Halo 1 and 2 are visually at par with modern big budget games? I'm actually saying Halo 1 and 2 are not the eyesore you're suggesting. These are games that remain active, people are playing the MP with classic graphics.

What's you point about MCC exactly? They took years to fix it and now people will continue to play it for years. Whether its on X1, Scarlett or PC.

I hear ya, but I still feel Gears 1 was had an interesting presentation. Gears 5 looks great but it kinda looks like many other AAA games. Gears 1 stylistically looked like a horror game.

Fable Anniversary's visuals lacked the stylized cartoonish charm of the original and still wasn't impressive for 360 hardware. They did a bad job, I would have been happier with a straight port with a higher resolution or 60 fps. Halo 1 Anniversary had a similar problem and I could nitpick, but they still did a better job.

Halo Wars sold well and people like it, but other games review better and it has a low population so its ultimately bad? Whatever. I think the original point is lost, its a game that aged fine.

I already said we should appreciate old games for moving the industry forward even if they are difficult to enjoy now.

Most 8 and 16 bit games are trash. Its a smaller list of iconic titles that inspire many games.

The 360 port Perfect Dark made what is essentially the same old game more enjoyable. Primarily with a few easy fixes like modern controls, resolution and performance. I'm not arguing it became a perfect experience, just saying the core gameplay actually aged fairly well. I argue Perfect Dark aged better than many games simply because the gameplay was always solid.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 19 September 2019

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I guess. Wouldn't make any sense for them to get any AAA devs considering the hardware they put out.

User was banned for this post among others -cycycychris

Last edited by cycycychris - on 21 September 2019

JWeinCom said:
CaptainExplosion said:

This is deeply alarming, especially with Microsoft buying up studios. You know how that usually ends.

At least Nintendo, so far, hasn't done such an atrocity to any of their in-house studios.

Nuts and Bolts was an amazing game.  Much better than Tooie, and rivals the original.

How can any person be this wrong?



psychicscubadiver said:
JWeinCom said:

Nuts and Bolts was an amazing game.  Much better than Tooie, and rivals the original.

How can any person be this wrong?

Sorry.  Clearly you're the ultimate arbiter of game quality, and I should have checked with you before playing the games and forming an opinion.  My bad.



So it's trendy now to like Nuts & Bolts? Someday I'd like to try it, but I don't own an Xbox console anymore, so I don't think I have any options. I've always wondered if the Gamepass allowed you to play games on a Windows PC without having to own an Xbox.



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JWeinCom said:
psychicscubadiver said:

How can any person be this wrong?

Sorry.  Clearly you're the ultimate arbiter of game quality, and I should have checked with you before playing the games and forming an opinion.  My bad.

Thank you, apology accepted. My dm's are open any time you need to check if an opinion is acceptable before posting.



psychicscubadiver said:
JWeinCom said:

Sorry.  Clearly you're the ultimate arbiter of game quality, and I should have checked with you before playing the games and forming an opinion.  My bad.

Thank you, apology accepted. My dm's are open any time you need to check if an opinion is acceptable before posting.

So noted.  



Mr Puggsly said:

You think I am saying Halo 1 and 2 are visually at par with modern big budget games? I'm actually saying Halo 1 and 2 are not the eyesore you're suggesting. These are games that remain active, people are playing the MP with classic graphics.

The online is pretty much dead because the servers have been shut down for almost a decade for Halo 1 and 2. Of course you have things like Xlink that allows you to play via other means, but the games are no more or less popular than other titles really.
https://www.teamxlink.co.uk/

Visually they look like a dogs breakfast. Blurry low-res textures, over-bright bloom effects, simplistic geometry, simple lighting, floaty controls... But back in the day the game was leading the pack in the visual department... But that came at the cost of sub 30fps on original xbox hardware.


The remakes overhauled the titles visually and brought the games forward in regards to multiplayer and the MCC throws them into a semi-decent package, but that wasn't how the games were for years after release, lets not fool ourselves here.

Mr Puggsly said:

What's you point about MCC exactly? They took years to fix it and now people will continue to play it for years. Whether its on X1, Scarlett or PC.

I don't doubt that people play MCC today and will continue to play the games going forward, never argued the contrary.
I am stating it's a far cry from the giant populations that older games had, the length of time to find a match is a testament to that... Doesn't help that Microsoft has hidden away the population counter.

Hoping for a Scarlett enhanced version. Ray Traced Halo 3? I could get behind that.

Mr Puggsly said:

I hear ya, but I still feel Gears 1 was had an interesting presentation. Gears 5 looks great but it kinda looks like many other AAA games. Gears 1 stylistically looked like a horror game.

Gears of War 1 was a good game that laid the foundations of the franchise, that's the point I am trying to convey. - But when you look backwards at the game and compare it to modern titles like Gears of War 5, it's hard not to look at the game with Rose tinted glasses, Gears 5 is a significant improvement over Gears of War 1 in almost every single regard... And so it should be, that's how progression of a franchise should happen.
That doesn't mean Gears of War 1 is a bad game, it's just not an amazing game when compared to it's modern contemporaries.

Mr Puggsly said:

Fable Anniversary's visuals lacked the stylized cartoonish charm of the original and still wasn't impressive for 360 hardware. They did a bad job, I would have been happier with a straight port with a higher resolution or 60 fps. Halo 1 Anniversary had a similar problem and I could nitpick, but they still did a better job.

The main improvement that Anniversary brought with it was improved lighting and shadowing thanks to their use of the Unreal Engine, which is an engine that is really well suited to the Xbox 360's hardware... Sadly the improved shadowing techniques was also more demanding on hardware so there was a hit to shadowing resolution.

On PC though many of Fables anniversary's visual shortcomings was resolved on the much more capable PC as it's able to drive up the visuals higher... But Fable 1 on the OG Xbox was a very pretty game, it used it's polygon budget extremely smartly that lent itself to the art style... And probably had one of the best lighting, particle and shadowing effects of that entire console generation... Arguably even better than Halo 1 on the OG Xbox in many aspects. (Although Halo 1 on the PC using Shader Model 2 shaders is a step up again IMHO.)

Mr Puggsly said:

Halo Wars sold well and people like it, but other games review better and it has a low population so its ultimately bad? Whatever. I think the original point is lost, its a game that aged fine.

Halo Wars sold well. For an RTS. An RTS on a console.

I am not saying it's bad, it's just not a game that has lasted the test of time... And when compared against newer RTS titles, ultimately falls short as it should.
Remember, games are supposed to improve.

Mr Puggsly said:

I already said we should appreciate old games for moving the industry forward even if they are difficult to enjoy now.

And as such should be judged within an appropriate context, hence my entire argument to start with.

Mr Puggsly said:

Most 8 and 16 bit games are trash. Its a smaller list of iconic titles that inspire many games.

I can name a really really long list of 8-bit and 16-bit games that are amazing even in 2019... From a gameplay perspective or an artistic perspective, but not from a technical perspective.

Mr Puggsly said:

The 360 port Perfect Dark made what is essentially the same old game more enjoyable. Primarily with a few easy fixes like modern controls, resolution and performance. I'm not arguing it became a perfect experience, just saying the core gameplay actually aged fairly well. I argue Perfect Dark aged better than many games simply because the gameplay was always solid.

I disagree, I couldn't really get into the Xbox 360 or Xbox One ports of the game as the gameplay hadn't aged well. - The lack of jump for instance... Not exactly a modern feature, but a feature of the time the games released in.
And that is before I touch on the visual or audio representation of the titles... In saying that, they are good games when placed against games of the era they released in, not against games of 2019.



Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

You think I am saying Halo 1 and 2 are visually at par with modern big budget games? I'm actually saying Halo 1 and 2 are not the eyesore you're suggesting. These are games that remain active, people are playing the MP with classic graphics.

The online is pretty much dead because the servers have been shut down for almost a decade for Halo 1 and 2. Of course you have things like Xlink that allows you to play via other means, but the games are no more or less popular than other titles really.
https://www.teamxlink.co.uk/

Visually they look like a dogs breakfast. Blurry low-res textures, over-bright bloom effects, simplistic geometry, simple lighting, floaty controls... But back in the day the game was leading the pack in the visual department... But that came at the cost of sub 30fps on original xbox hardware.

The remakes overhauled the titles visually and brought the games forward in regards to multiplayer and the MCC throws them into a semi-decent package, but that wasn't how the games were for years after release, lets not fool ourselves here.

Mr Puggsly said:

What's you point about MCC exactly? They took years to fix it and now people will continue to play it for years. Whether its on X1, Scarlett or PC.

I don't doubt that people play MCC today and will continue to play the games going forward, never argued the contrary.
I am stating it's a far cry from the giant populations that older games had, the length of time to find a match is a testament to that... Doesn't help that Microsoft has hidden away the population counter.

Hoping for a Scarlett enhanced version. Ray Traced Halo 3? I could get behind that.

Mr Puggsly said:

I hear ya, but I still feel Gears 1 was had an interesting presentation. Gears 5 looks great but it kinda looks like many other AAA games. Gears 1 stylistically looked like a horror game.

Gears of War 1 was a good game that laid the foundations of the franchise, that's the point I am trying to convey. - But when you look backwards at the game and compare it to modern titles like Gears of War 5, it's hard not to look at the game with Rose tinted glasses, Gears 5 is a significant improvement over Gears of War 1 in almost every single regard... And so it should be, that's how progression of a franchise should happen.
That doesn't mean Gears of War 1 is a bad game, it's just not an amazing game when compared to it's modern contemporaries.

Mr Puggsly said:

Fable Anniversary's visuals lacked the stylized cartoonish charm of the original and still wasn't impressive for 360 hardware. They did a bad job, I would have been happier with a straight port with a higher resolution or 60 fps. Halo 1 Anniversary had a similar problem and I could nitpick, but they still did a better job.

The main improvement that Anniversary brought with it was improved lighting and shadowing thanks to their use of the Unreal Engine, which is an engine that is really well suited to the Xbox 360's hardware... Sadly the improved shadowing techniques was also more demanding on hardware so there was a hit to shadowing resolution.

On PC though many of Fables anniversary's visual shortcomings was resolved on the much more capable PC as it's able to drive up the visuals higher... But Fable 1 on the OG Xbox was a very pretty game, it used it's polygon budget extremely smartly that lent itself to the art style... And probably had one of the best lighting, particle and shadowing effects of that entire console generation... Arguably even better than Halo 1 on the OG Xbox in many aspects. (Although Halo 1 on the PC using Shader Model 2 shaders is a step up again IMHO.)

Mr Puggsly said:

Halo Wars sold well and people like it, but other games review better and it has a low population so its ultimately bad? Whatever. I think the original point is lost, its a game that aged fine.

Halo Wars sold well. For an RTS. An RTS on a console.

I am not saying it's bad, it's just not a game that has lasted the test of time... And when compared against newer RTS titles, ultimately falls short as it should.
Remember, games are supposed to improve.

Mr Puggsly said:

I already said we should appreciate old games for moving the industry forward even if they are difficult to enjoy now.

And as such should be judged within an appropriate context, hence my entire argument to start with.

Mr Puggsly said:

Most 8 and 16 bit games are trash. Its a smaller list of iconic titles that inspire many games.

I can name a really really long list of 8-bit and 16-bit games that are amazing even in 2019... From a gameplay perspective or an artistic perspective, but not from a technical perspective.

Mr Puggsly said:

The 360 port Perfect Dark made what is essentially the same old game more enjoyable. Primarily with a few easy fixes like modern controls, resolution and performance. I'm not arguing it became a perfect experience, just saying the core gameplay actually aged fairly well. I argue Perfect Dark aged better than many games simply because the gameplay was always solid.

I disagree, I couldn't really get into the Xbox 360 or Xbox One ports of the game as the gameplay hadn't aged well. - The lack of jump for instance... Not exactly a modern feature, but a feature of the time the games released in.
And that is before I touch on the visual or audio representation of the titles... In saying that, they are good games when placed against games of the era they released in, not against games of 2019.

Again, I feel like the primary point is being missed. Halo 1 and 2 are still enjoyable and still not the eyesore you're suggesting. Its funny mentiom DF, because in the DF Retro video he says he prefers Halo's classic graphics.

Many games dont have population counts these days. There is also significantly more online game options these days, so its likely the audience is more divided than ever. For example, MCC is active and so are the original 360 releases.

Halo 3 and ODST remasters would be nice. Ray tracing is nice but not essential, its hugh blow to performance or resolution.

I'm saying Gears 1 has visual charm, like a horror theme. Instead of going for an improved version of that visual style, Gears 5 instead looks like other bright colorful games.

Fable Anniversary was a great looking OG Xbox game, but a poorly optimized, half baked remaster for 360. Although on a X1X it becomes a 4K game with improved performance and draw distances.

Halo Wars didn't fall short and it was never designed to compete with other RTS games. Part of the appeal is its actually a unique, easy to play Halo themed RTS. It has absolutely passed the test of time, people enjoy it. I don't agree a game needs a big online population to age well. For some reason you're comparing it with other more popular games, not relevant.

Perfect Dark aged well somply because its still an enjoyable game. I'm not arguing its as good as modern games. N64 Banjo gamds feel more clunky and tedious in comparison.

I bet your list would be a small fraction of the 8 and 16 bit era.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Pemalite said:

The online is pretty much dead because the servers have been shut down for almost a decade for Halo 1 and 2. Of course you have things like Xlink that allows you to play via other means, but the games are no more or less popular than other titles really.
https://www.teamxlink.co.uk/

Visually they look like a dogs breakfast. Blurry low-res textures, over-bright bloom effects, simplistic geometry, simple lighting, floaty controls... But back in the day the game was leading the pack in the visual department... But that came at the cost of sub 30fps on original xbox hardware.

The remakes overhauled the titles visually and brought the games forward in regards to multiplayer and the MCC throws them into a semi-decent package, but that wasn't how the games were for years after release, lets not fool ourselves here.

I don't doubt that people play MCC today and will continue to play the games going forward, never argued the contrary.
I am stating it's a far cry from the giant populations that older games had, the length of time to find a match is a testament to that... Doesn't help that Microsoft has hidden away the population counter.

Hoping for a Scarlett enhanced version. Ray Traced Halo 3? I could get behind that.

Gears of War 1 was a good game that laid the foundations of the franchise, that's the point I am trying to convey. - But when you look backwards at the game and compare it to modern titles like Gears of War 5, it's hard not to look at the game with Rose tinted glasses, Gears 5 is a significant improvement over Gears of War 1 in almost every single regard... And so it should be, that's how progression of a franchise should happen.
That doesn't mean Gears of War 1 is a bad game, it's just not an amazing game when compared to it's modern contemporaries.

The main improvement that Anniversary brought with it was improved lighting and shadowing thanks to their use of the Unreal Engine, which is an engine that is really well suited to the Xbox 360's hardware... Sadly the improved shadowing techniques was also more demanding on hardware so there was a hit to shadowing resolution.

On PC though many of Fables anniversary's visual shortcomings was resolved on the much more capable PC as it's able to drive up the visuals higher... But Fable 1 on the OG Xbox was a very pretty game, it used it's polygon budget extremely smartly that lent itself to the art style... And probably had one of the best lighting, particle and shadowing effects of that entire console generation... Arguably even better than Halo 1 on the OG Xbox in many aspects. (Although Halo 1 on the PC using Shader Model 2 shaders is a step up again IMHO.)

Halo Wars sold well. For an RTS. An RTS on a console.

I am not saying it's bad, it's just not a game that has lasted the test of time... And when compared against newer RTS titles, ultimately falls short as it should.
Remember, games are supposed to improve.

And as such should be judged within an appropriate context, hence my entire argument to start with.

I can name a really really long list of 8-bit and 16-bit games that are amazing even in 2019... From a gameplay perspective or an artistic perspective, but not from a technical perspective.

I disagree, I couldn't really get into the Xbox 360 or Xbox One ports of the game as the gameplay hadn't aged well. - The lack of jump for instance... Not exactly a modern feature, but a feature of the time the games released in.
And that is before I touch on the visual or audio representation of the titles... In saying that, they are good games when placed against games of the era they released in, not against games of 2019.

Again, I feel like the primary point is being missed. Halo 1 and 2 are still enjoyable and still not the eyesore you're suggesting. Its funny mentiom DF, because in the DF Retro video he says he prefers Halo's classic graphics.

Many games dont have population counts these days. There is also significantly more online game options these days, so its likely the audience is more divided than ever. For example, MCC is active and so are the original 360 releases.

Halo 3 and ODST remasters would be nice. Ray tracing is nice but not essential, its hugh blow to performance or resolution.

I'm saying Gears 1 has visual charm, like a horror theme. Instead of going for an improved version of that visual style, Gears 5 instead looks like other bright colorful games.

Fable Anniversary was a great looking OG Xbox game, but a poorly optimized, half baked remaster for 360. Although on a X1X it becomes a 4K game with improved performance and draw distances.

Halo Wars didn't fall short and it was never designed to compete with other RTS games. Part of the appeal is its actually a unique, easy to play Halo themed RTS. It has absolutely passed the test of time, people enjoy it. I don't agree a game needs a big online population to age well. For some reason you're comparing it with other more popular games, not relevant.

Perfect Dark aged well somply because its still an enjoyable game. I'm not arguing its as good as modern games. N64 Banjo gamds feel more clunky and tedious in comparison.

I bet your list would be a small fraction of the 8 and 16 bit era.

Exactly, Halo's success was largely dependent on the lack of competition. Once the likes of Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc. rose to the occasion Halo became just another one of the dozens out there.