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I really hope this game at least has some decent level design and enemy variety, two areas where other "Souls-like games" have disappointed me.



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Hiku said:
Machina said:

Not sure I like the option of viable primary ranged weapons and such strong magical ranged attacks. I suspect going the ranged route may prove fatal when it comes to later bosses. It makes regular mobs a breeze to work through, but it means you get lazy and don't practice and get proficient at melee combat, so if you eventually have to take on a boss using melee you're going to be screwed

What kind of primary ranged weapon did you use?
I was not able to find any ranged attacks other than magic based attacks, so I still had to primarily use melee attacks. I used the Mage class for the first boss, which has the highest MP (so far), and even then I had nowhere near enough magic points to take it down with magic alone. Same for normal enemies unless you stay close to your save spot.

Save points are pretty frequent so far. I could usually get to the next one before running out of magic, using the bayonette's melee for the most basic enemies but ranged or magic attacks for everything else. The only time I had to backtrack to refresh was the area just prior to that first boss, where there are two giant enemies and several grunt ones. Just kiting and spamming the heavy magic attack works fine on them if you start with full mana. (Excuse any incorrect terminology, I don't know the actual names of everything).

The first boss I basically kited and spammed my heavy magic upgrade and when I'd ran out of MP he was pretty low; all I had to do then was the classic Souls tactic of dodge, get behind, hit hit, dodge, reposition, hit hit, etc. a couple of times.

It feels cheap though, and you don't properly practice melee, so like I said I'm going to replay with a melee combat focus.

Last edited by Machina - on 16 September 2019

Machina said:
Hiku said:

What kind of primary ranged weapon did you use?
I was not able to find any ranged attacks other than magic based attacks, so I still had to primarily use melee attacks. I used the Mage class for the first boss, which has the highest MP (so far), and even then I had nowhere near enough magic points to take it down with magic alone. Same for normal enemies unless you stay close to your save spot.

Save points are pretty frequent so far. I could usually get to the next one before running out of magic, using the bayonette's melee for the most basic enemies but ranged or magic attacks for everything else. The only time I had to backtrack to refresh was the area just prior to that first boss, where there are two giant enemies and several grunt ones. Just kiting and spamming the heavy magic attack works fine on them if you start with full mana. (Excuse any incorrect terminology, I don't know the actual names of everything).

When I used the Bayonette in the early stages of the demo, I didn't find the ranged attack of the bayonette effective compared to magic, considering the amount of MP it uses taking down a larger enemy, plus the amount of time it takes. So I tried it again now at Level 38 to see how it is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhJngUtfQTQ

It took 5 shots (+1 on the shield to see if it caused any stagger) and over 20 seconds to take down this enemy which is the weakest of all the 'stronger' ones. So that's 5/16 MP.
And if there's more than one enemy around, the time it takes could be more of a problem.

With a magic attack, I immediately killed the same enemy in one hit, for 6/30MP.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXiXdxZuM0E

Same thing with the hammer, but using no MP.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJGr0ikXUg0

So if I'm going to do ranged attacks, I prefer magic spells that consume more MP, but do more damage.

In the second dungeon though, there's a room where you get attacked by multiple waves of 3 or 4 enemies at once. Some of them are huge and can leap towards you very quickly from far away. So you don't always have a lot of time to act. Being able to hit multiple enemies at once can be helpful there.
Not sure how prevalent rooms like this will be, but it prompted a message to appear on screen, so I'm sure we'll see every now and then at least.

Machina said:
The first boss I basically kited and spammed my heavy magic upgrade and when I'd ran out of MP he was pretty low; all I had to do then was the classic Souls tactic of dodge, get behind, hit hit, dodge, reposition, hit hit, etc. a couple of times.

Hmmm, that's peculiar. When I fought the first boss, I was using the mage class. And expending all my MP on magic attacks, they only did about 20-25% damage to the boss.
I'm pretty sure I wasn't under leveled, as I had deliberately leveled up several times before that.

Which attacks did you use?

Last edited by Hiku - on 16 September 2019

OK interesting, so your experiment suggests that melee against enemies you've no reason to worry about, magic against tougher enemies (which does seem too strong since it's strong early on and is also scaling well based on your testing), and then melee when you run out of mana is the most effective way to approach things. But that there's not much utility for the ranged weapons afterall.

On the boss I used the ability you used in your second video (and on most of the larger new enemies I came across); like you say, takes up more mana but deals a lot of damage. Kited, dodged, chipped with melee while it was on cooldown (with the Bayonette, so not the most effective, but I didn't have the presence of mind to switch weapons). Magic again once off cooldown and enough distance away to feel safe for the channeling time. Then when completely out of mana went straight to the Soulsborne trick of keeping to its backside while taking a few swipes. Roll to dodge, stick to its behind, hit hit, roll to dodge, stick to its behind, etc.

Almost all Bloodborne bosses can be beaten that way or using similar cheesy techniques, so it's not a criticism per se and I'm not one of those annoying Soulslike fans who won't be satisfied unless a game is practically impossible, but I think I died at least once against every Bloodborne boss whereas I never really felt pressured against this one. 



Machina said:

OK interesting, so your experiment suggests that melee against enemies you've no reason to worry about, magic against tougher enemies (which does seem too strong since it's strong early on and is also scaling well based on your testing), and then melee when you run out of mana is the most effective way to approach things. But that there's not much utility for the ranged weapons afterall.

As far as I could tell, the ranged attack from the gun worked like this. I may have missed something. But maybe there will be some skills or gear in the full game that'd make me want to use it more.
One possibility might be a class that doesn't allow you to use magic spells, so your only option for long range attacks may be from a gun like this. And if there's an enemy up on a ledge that you can't easily reach, that might be the best approach.

Magic still seem effective for most enemies, but there have been some situations in the second dungeon you get access to after the "end credits" of the demo where it made me hesitant to use them, both because of the MP cost and due to the nature of the attack. In this scenario in particular: https://youtu.be/XpzDJsAP-Zw?t=4179

Magic attacks are supplementary in this fight, as they should be. But if you rely on them you'll run out of MP before you're even able to clear the room.

This room is the best place to farm haze in as well, so personally I would have felt forced to practice more melee at this point, if I hadn't already.
And I had, because I decided to max out all classes skills since the beginning, so I had to use mostly melee, as magic attacks tend to work less proficiently when using non mage classes.

Machina said:
On the boss I used the ability you used in your second video (and on most of the larger new enemies I came across); like you say, takes up more mana but deals a lot of damage. Kited, dodged, chipped with melee while it was on cooldown (with the Bayonette, so not the most effective, but I didn't have the presence of mind to switch weapons). Magic again once off cooldown and enough distance away to feel safe for the channeling time. Then when completely out of mana went straight to the Soulsborne trick of keeping to its backside while taking a few swipes. Roll to dodge, stick to its behind, hit hit, roll to dodge, stick to its behind, etc.

Almost all Bloodborne bosses can be beaten that way or using similar cheesy techniques, so it's not a criticism per se and I'm not one of those annoying Soulslike fans who won't be satisfied unless a game is practically impossible, but I think I died at least once against every Bloodborne boss whereas I never really felt pressured against this one. 

Ah, ok I think that explains why. Because that's the spell I was using too, but I think the difference is you went in for melee attacks while it was on cooldown, which allowed for more damage not only from yourself, but from the CPU partner as well.
I just stayed away and did nothing but cast that spell until my MP was too low. Then I used the less costly and weaker spell, until I had 0 MP.
Only then did I go in for melee attacks. 

By the way @StokedUp I beat the Queen's Knight.

I got excited about the Queen Iron at first, thinking it was Queen Steel, which is what's necessary to upgrade gear beyond +3.
But I guess that just isn't available in the Demo.

Last edited by Hiku - on 17 September 2019

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Machina said:

OK interesting, so your experiment suggests that melee against enemies you've no reason to worry about, magic against tougher enemies (which does seem too strong since it's strong early on and is also scaling well based on your testing), and then melee when you run out of mana is the most effective way to approach things. But that there's not much utility for the ranged weapons afterall.

On the boss I used the ability you used in your second video (and on most of the larger new enemies I came across); like you say, takes up more mana but deals a lot of damage. Kited, dodged, chipped with melee while it was on cooldown (with the Bayonette, so not the most effective, but I didn't have the presence of mind to switch weapons). Magic again once off cooldown and enough distance away to feel safe for the channeling time. Then when completely out of mana went straight to the Soulsborne trick of keeping to its backside while taking a few swipes. Roll to dodge, stick to its behind, hit hit, roll to dodge, stick to its behind, etc.

Almost all Bloodborne bosses can be beaten that way or using similar cheesy techniques, so it's not a criticism per se and I'm not one of those annoying Soulslike fans who won't be satisfied unless a game is practically impossible, but I think I died at least once against every Bloodborne boss whereas I never really felt pressured against this one. 

What is your plan to dealing with haze and how to spend it?

It is used for buying abilities, and equipment, and veils, and upgrading things, and leveling etc.

I believe my current plan is to find some spot and "grind" haze. Use that haze to unlock abilities and at the same time use those abilities to unlock them so anyone can use them.

My fear is that if I over-grind "haze" then I will be over leveled making the game too easy.



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Bandorr said:

What is your plan to dealing with haze and how to spend it?

It is used for buying abilities, and equipment, and veils, and upgrading things, and leveling etc.

I believe my current plan is to find some spot and "grind" haze. Use that haze to unlock abilities and at the same time use those abilities to unlock them so anyone can use them.

My fear is that if I over-grind "haze" then I will be over leveled making the game too easy.

I changed my outlook on this regarding what is most time efficient for the Demo.
Though this will result in the game feeling easier as well, but upgrading your weapon and armor first can make the difference between enemies taking 1 or 2 hits to be killed.

I started to consider this after I saw the haze cost of some of the more expensive skills. I think they cost over 60 000 haze.

Last edited by Hiku - on 17 September 2019

Hiku said:
Bandorr said:

What is your plan to dealing with haze and how to spend it?

It is used for buying abilities, and equipment, and veils, and upgrading things, and leveling etc.

I believe my current plan is to find some spot and "grind" haze. Use that haze to unlock abilities and at the same time use those abilities to unlock them so anyone can use them.

My fear is that if I over-grind "haze" then I will be over leveled making the game too easy.

I changed my outlook on this regarding what is most time efficient for the Demo.
Though this will result in the game feeling easier as well, but upgrading your weapon and armor first can make the difference between enemies taking 1 or 2 hits to be killed.

I started to consider this after I saw the haze cost of some of the more expensive skills. I think they cost over 60 000 haze.

So you'd suggest grinding the haze and upgrading armor/weapons before veils/transforming/unlocking skills?

I may be over thinking it, but it seems like there are an insane amount of uses for haze. I noticed this because I was like level 9 near the end because I spent it on everything else.



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Bandorr said:
Hiku said:

I changed my outlook on this regarding what is most time efficient for the Demo.
Though this will result in the game feeling easier as well, but upgrading your weapon and armor first can make the difference between enemies taking 1 or 2 hits to be killed.

I started to consider this after I saw the haze cost of some of the more expensive skills. I think they cost over 60 000 haze.

So you'd suggest grinding the haze and upgrading armor/weapons before veils/transforming/unlocking skills?

I may be over thinking it, but it seems like there are an insane amount of uses for haze. I noticed this because I was like level 9 near the end because I spent it on everything else.

Yeah, for the Demo at least.
At first I planned on using Haze to acquire new skills primarily, and then a lvl up every once in a while. And I did that until I got to the second dungeon with the room that spawns 10+ enemies, which is great for farming haze. And at that point there was nothing else to explore really. So it's just a matter of repeating that room over and over until you unlock all skills. Upgrading weapons and armor first made me able to clear the room much faster, because I went from killing the smaller ones in 2 hits, to 1 hit.

But for the full game, I probably won't be farming haze too much to unlock skills, but rather let it happen organically as I progress through the game. (Except some of the more useful ones, like the passive that increases enemy drop rates.) So I may not feel the need to focus on enhancing weapons either in the full game, but I guess that depends on how challenging the enemies are.



@Hiku how long did the queens knight take you? Its took me so many attempts. I think I might of been underlevelled when I was first trying to beat it so I levelled up a bit. It took me along time to recognise the attacks it was going to do aswell as avoiding them.
I defeated it first with Mia as my partner but later found out that, for me anyway that yakumo seemed a better choice.



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