Thanks MT.
Who do you believe will have a stronger defense in 2020? | |||
Patriots | 2 | 66.67% | |
Steelers | 1 | 33.33% | |
Total: | 3 |
Shaunodon said:
When I said "allegations that didn't exist until he joined the Patriots", I was specifically talking about the 'rape allegations' that were only discovered after he joined the Patriots. The furniture incident, spat with the Raiders GM and all that other noise were all documented and proven events that we all knew about before he joined the Pats, so I'm not sure why you'd think I was referring to them. |
Let's go through this piecemeal.
First, I would honestly hope you're referring to anything but the sexual assault allegations, because arguing that those were only conveniently discovered when he joined the Patriots would be even more absurd than anything else you've put forth so far. Civil cases like this have to be filed long in advance, usually weeks or even months. There is no possible way the accuser could have known he would be on the Patriots at this time. Media outlets picked up on the case as soon as it was filed, and it's received as much attention as any NFL star accused of sexual misconduct. Beyond this, it's just a simple matter of the media choosing to focus in on the latest AB story...which they had been doing for months on end anyway.
Second, we don't know the details of what happened behind the scenes with Pats (as is often the case). My suspicion is BB saw how damaging AB could be to a team's culture if he was allowed free roam on social media, and gave him a strict one strike policy. Regardless of whether you think those texts are "bad" or not (threatening physical abuse is admittedly a bit much looking back on it), it's still communicating directly with an accuser during a civil suit (bad), and directly sharing pictures of her and her kids for people she doesn't even know to investigate (really bad). If you can't trust someone to follow instructions like that, then they're not safe to keep around. Again, this is spitballing one hypothetical way that things could've gone, but there's plenty of scenarios in which there are, y'know, actual reasons for AB to be let go rather than the organization just suddenly caving to media pressure. If he's a previously troubled individual, he gets far less leeway before he's out the door.
Which brings me to the consistency argument. Yes, he was still acting like a dipshit. But that's entirely the point: BB brings these "problem" players into NE with the hopes of, for lack of a better word, reforming them. Randy Moss, Aqib Talib, Rodney Harrison, etc. The idea is that you get brought into NE with a clean slate. They'll forget about what you've done previously if you don't do it here, but if you do anything resembling what you did previously, you're gone. There's little to zero tolerance in NE for going off script, so to speak.
As for NE looking competent, I don't think there's anything involved in this that makes them look especially bad. They took a chance on a receiver who they thought they could straighten out. The chance ultimately cost them $178K (chump change in the NFL), and Demaryius Thomas' roster spot (who's been a mix of injured and playing badly this season anyway). They didn't lose major resources in this, nor were there major casualties to the offense. Maybe some of the younger receivers like Gunner or Jakobi didn't catch on as soon as they would've had they gotten the attention AB did that week, but the team's still 7-0 regardless, so...it's not exactly like they suffered in the meantime.
We also have no idea the extent of Gordon's injury. Being able to participate in practice isn't a great indicator unless it's full contact (which that one wasn't). It's possible it was more serious than originally thought, and that's what I'd imagine. This is Bill Belichick we're talking about here, the guy's won six Super Bowls working as a de facto GM. Have a little faith that he knows what he's doing.
MTZehvor said:
Let's go through this piecemeal. First, I would honestly hope you're referring to anything but the sexual assault allegations, because arguing that those were only conveniently discovered when he joined the Patriots would be even more absurd than anything else you've put forth so far. Civil cases like this have to be filed long in advance, usually weeks or even months. There is no possible way the accuser could have known he would be on the Patriots at this time. Media outlets picked up on the case as soon as it was filed, and it's received as much attention as any NFL star accused of sexual misconduct. Beyond this, it's just a simple matter of the media choosing to focus in on the latest AB story...which they had been doing for months on end anyway. Second, we don't know the details of what happened behind the scenes with Pats (as is often the case). My suspicion is BB saw how damaging AB could be to a team's culture if he was allowed free roam on social media, and gave him a strict one strike policy. Regardless of whether you think those texts are "bad" or not (threatening physical abuse is admittedly a bit much looking back on it), it's still communicating directly with an accuser during a civil suit (bad), and directly sharing pictures of her and her kids for people she doesn't even know to investigate (really bad). If you can't trust someone to follow instructions like that, then they're not safe to keep around. Again, this is spitballing one hypothetical way that things could've gone, but there's plenty of scenarios in which there are, y'know, actual reasons for AB to be let go rather than the organization just suddenly caving to media pressure. If he's a previously troubled individual, he gets far less leeway before he's out the door. Which brings me to the consistency argument. Yes, he was still acting like a dipshit. But that's entirely the point: BB brings these "problem" players into NE with the hopes of, for lack of a better word, reforming them. Randy Moss, Aqib Talib, Rodney Harrison, etc. The idea is that you get brought into NE with a clean slate. They'll forget about what you've done previously if you don't do it here, but if you do anything resembling what you did previously, you're gone. There's little to zero tolerance in NE for going off script, so to speak. As for NE looking competent, I don't think there's anything involved in this that makes them look especially bad. They took a chance on a receiver who they thought they could straighten out. The chance ultimately cost them $178K (chump change in the NFL), and Demaryius Thomas' roster spot (who's been a mix of injured and playing badly this season anyway). They didn't lose major resources in this, nor were there major casualties to the offense. Maybe some of the younger receivers like Gunner or Jakobi didn't catch on as soon as they would've had they gotten the attention AB did that week, but the team's still 7-0 regardless, so...it's not exactly like they suffered in the meantime. We also have no idea the extent of Gordon's injury. Being able to participate in practice isn't a great indicator unless it's full contact (which that one wasn't). It's possible it was more serious than originally thought, and that's what I'd imagine. This is Bill Belichick we're talking about here, the guy's won six Super Bowls working as a de facto GM. Have a little faith that he knows what he's doing. |
I agree with all this, but would add BB has won two titles as a DC, so he has 8 rings.
MTZehvor said:
Let's go through this piecemeal. First, I would honestly hope you're referring to anything but the sexual assault allegations, because arguing that those were only conveniently discovered when he joined the Patriots would be even more absurd than anything else you've put forth so far. Civil cases like this have to be filed long in advance, usually weeks or even months. There is no possible way the accuser could have known he would be on the Patriots at this time. Media outlets picked up on the case as soon as it was filed, and it's received as much attention as any NFL star accused of sexual misconduct. Beyond this, it's just a simple matter of the media choosing to focus in on the latest AB story...which they had been doing for months on end anyway. Second, we don't know the details of what happened behind the scenes with Pats (as is often the case). My suspicion is BB saw how damaging AB could be to a team's culture if he was allowed free roam on social media, and gave him a strict one strike policy. Regardless of whether you think those texts are "bad" or not (threatening physical abuse is admittedly a bit much looking back on it), it's still communicating directly with an accuser during a civil suit (bad), and directly sharing pictures of her and her kids for people she doesn't even know to investigate (really bad). If you can't trust someone to follow instructions like that, then they're not safe to keep around. Again, this is spitballing one hypothetical way that things could've gone, but there's plenty of scenarios in which there are, y'know, actual reasons for AB to be let go rather than the organization just suddenly caving to media pressure. If he's a previously troubled individual, he gets far less leeway before he's out the door. Which brings me to the consistency argument. Yes, he was still acting like a dipshit. But that's entirely the point: BB brings these "problem" players into NE with the hopes of, for lack of a better word, reforming them. Randy Moss, Aqib Talib, Rodney Harrison, etc. The idea is that you get brought into NE with a clean slate. They'll forget about what you've done previously if you don't do it here, but if you do anything resembling what you did previously, you're gone. There's little to zero tolerance in NE for going off script, so to speak. As for NE looking competent, I don't think there's anything involved in this that makes them look especially bad. They took a chance on a receiver who they thought they could straighten out. The chance ultimately cost them $178K (chump change in the NFL), and Demaryius Thomas' roster spot (who's been a mix of injured and playing badly this season anyway). They didn't lose major resources in this, nor were there major casualties to the offense. Maybe some of the younger receivers like Gunner or Jakobi didn't catch on as soon as they would've had they gotten the attention AB did that week, but the team's still 7-0 regardless, so...it's not exactly like they suffered in the meantime. We also have no idea the extent of Gordon's injury. Being able to participate in practice isn't a great indicator unless it's full contact (which that one wasn't). It's possible it was more serious than originally thought, and that's what I'd imagine. This is Bill Belichick we're talking about here, the guy's won six Super Bowls working as a de facto GM. Have a little faith that he knows what he's doing. |
I'm not even gonna bother replying to your whole 'piecemeal' argument here, because the whole thing can be blown up by the fact you actually believe Belichick orchestrated every step of the situation, when the evidence we have shows that wasn't the case.
https://popculture.com/sports/2019/09/27/bill-belichick-robert-kraft-antonio-brown-cut-disagree/
"Curran wrote that Kraft was all about cutting Brown while Belichick understood the decision, but he did not agree with it."
""After more conversations this week, I’ve come to understand that unanimous decision wasn’t easily reached," Curran wrote via Deadspin. "Belichick accepted the decision and understood it. But he was by no means leading the charge to move on — and if Kraft hadn’t insisted, Brown would probably still be here.""
Hence why I'd always referred to the problems being from the Patriots management and organisation, rather than just singling out Belichick. Even though the Patriots are masters of being tight-lipped and not leaking any stories, there's clearly some disharmony and disagreement on some levels (players, coaches, ownership), about some of the choices being made. And I doubt that was helped when not long after the owner made an executive decision to cut AB, he then went live pre-game on TNF practically begging Gronk to come out of retirement, when everyone could see by the end of last season how badly he was breaking down on both a physcial and emotional level.
You can choose to keep speculating or 'spitballing' about what you believe might've happened behind the scenes, and how perfectly they must've handled it based on your trust of the organision. But I'm just following the breadcrumbs of all the information we do have right now, and to me, it leads to some clear dysfunction on some level.
Shaunodon said:
I'm not even gonna bother replying to your whole 'piecemeal' argument here, because the whole thing can be blown up by the fact you actually believe Belichick orchestrated every step of the situation, when the evidence we have shows that wasn't the case. |
Yeah, Tom Curran, the guy who said Jimmy Garoppolo was probably going replace Tom Brady by 2017? The guy who insinuated that Brady was using his Netflix documentary to get back at Kraft, peddling the very story you complained about earlier? Get real.
Look, I respect Curran more than the average Boston sports reporter (especially so for retracting that tweet later on), but none of these so called sources have an insight into decisions being made on that high a level. It's all just insipid speculation about dysfunction and how the team is falling apart on the inside. Stories get blown up to ridiculous proportions. It happened in 2014, it happened in 2017, and it's happening now.
MTZehvor said:
Yeah, Tom Curran, the guy who said Jimmy Garoppolo was probably going replace Tom Brady by 2017? The guy who insinuated that Brady was using his Netflix documentary to get back at Kraft, peddling the very story you complained about earlier? Get real. Look, I respect Curran more than the average Boston sports reporter (especially so for retracting that tweet later on), but none of these so called sources have an insight into decisions being made on that high a level. It's all just insipid speculation about dysfunction and how the team is falling apart on the inside. Stories get blown up to ridiculous proportions. It happened in 2014, it happened in 2017, and it's happening now. |
This wasn't a story that was blown up to any degree. None of the mainstream sports media have even mentioned it to my knowledge, and it was difficult to even find the articles about it. It was just a nugget of info that got buried in the fallout of everything.
And what exactly makes his insipid speculation about dysfunction any less reliable than your spitballing about what must be happening behind closed doors? At the very least, he is closer to the team than you are. So if he's trying to report things like this, there must be something going on, with some kind of tension.
Not that I'd ever bet my life on the total accuracy of his reporting, but where there's smoke there's fire. From reports before AB joined the team (Kraft texting Brady about whether he was in on AB, in hindsight probably because he himself didn't really want him), and then while AB was with the team, when he was apparently outraged to hear about the allegations. So it's not like Mr. Kraft being the main reason for AB being cut just came out of nowhere.
And it's not difficult to figure out why he wouldn't want that attention right now, especially of that nature.
Shaunodon said:
This wasn't a story that was blown up to any degree. None of the mainstream sports media have even mentioned it to my knowledge, and it was difficult to even find the articles about it. It was just a nugget of info that got buried in the fallout of everything. |
Nothing makes my speculation any more reliable, of course, which is why I'm not going around pronouncing it as the truth of what happened. I'm not taking my speculation, using it as a basis to say that something is wrong, and then decrying that there has to be some breakdown or dysfunction in the system. Literally the whole point of the speculation is to show there's no reason to inherently assume something's wrong: It provides a realistic, albeit purely hypothetical, scenario in which this is all handled without the need for some silly drama at the top.
Not really sure how Kraft texting AB means anything: That just seems like asking the guy who's going to be throwing him the ball to make sure he's ok. If Kraft didn't even want him to be there in the first place, he just...wouldn't have signed him.
And, no, there really doesn't have to be anything going on to get reports from "sources." It was just 2 years ago that Curran boldly proclaimed from "sources" that there was next to zero possibility that the Patriots would make major moves in the offseason. You know, the offseason they picked up Stephon Gilmore, Brandin Cooks, Lawrence Guy, etc. And Curran is probably one of the more reputable reporters for Boston sports: There's plenty far more egregious examples I'm sure both of us can bring up of absolute bullshit peddled by Boston and US media. The adage of "where there's smoke, there's fire," doesn't work in a world where the people reporting the fire are the ones often creating the smoke.
MTZehvor said:
Nothing makes my speculation any more reliable, of course, which is why I'm not going around pronouncing it as the truth of what happened. I'm not taking my speculation, using it as a basis to say that something is wrong, and then decrying that there has to be some breakdown or dysfunction in the system. Literally the whole point of the speculation is to show there's no reason to inherently assume something's wrong: It provides a realistic, albeit purely hypothetical, scenario in which this is all handled without the need for some silly drama at the top. Not really sure how Kraft texting AB means anything: That just seems like asking the guy who's going to be throwing him the ball to make sure he's ok. If Kraft didn't even want him to be there in the first place, he just...wouldn't have signed him. And, no, there really doesn't have to be anything going on to get reports from "sources." It was just 2 years ago that Curran boldly proclaimed from "sources" that there was next to zero possibility that the Patriots would make major moves in the offseason. You know, the offseason they picked up Stephon Gilmore, Brandin Cooks, Lawrence Guy, etc. And Curran is probably one of the more reputable reporters for Boston sports: There's plenty far more egregious examples I'm sure both of us can bring up of absolute bullshit peddled by Boston and US media. The adage of "where there's smoke, there's fire," doesn't work in a world where the people reporting the fire are the ones often creating the smoke. |
I'm not trying to pronounce any great truth either. There's a good chance the 'allegation' against Antonio Brown could bear fruit tomorrow, with some concrete evidence that he's truly guilty and I could look like a total moron for trying to defend him (at least on that front). All I'm doing is looking at the timeline of everything and what little information we've gotten, and making my best guess at what I believe is happening.
Just like the timing of his allegations seem almost too convenient, that it's hard to believe it wasn't obviously drummed up to some extent by the media. And just like Kraft probably didn't want AB to begin with, but it was clearly Belichick who'd been chasing him for a while that wanted to sign him, and so it's not hard to believe that Kraft would ultimately make the decision to cut him while Belichick wasn't in agreement.
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. I can at least repect your opinion that the media have next-to-no credibility. And I'm gonna have to keep praying while watching Brady take 8+ hits a game, he can somehow avoid a season-ending injury before Wynn gets back. Though more uncomfortable than normal thinking about the Browns, who are ill-disciplined; and Myles Garrett who doesn't have an off-switch and is as likely to hurt a QB as anyone in the league (with Burfict out now), though it's not his intention (unlike Burfict).
Standings are updated on the Google Sheet through Week 7, with Rol's extra win included (although I honestly probably should've taken it away considering he picked the Jets to beat the Pats last week). I think I found the issue with Thursday night picks not showing up on time: I believe the problem is that the sheet only shows edits after it's been specifically generated, and since I was a little late generating the sheet the past couple weeks it didn't show up. To that end, everyone who picked KC last week gets credit for a TNF game...because I can't guarantee if they were late or not. Qwerks of trying out a new system I suppose.
RolStoppable said:
Huh? Why would I pick the Jets? You must be messing with me. Otherwise I'll post my picks in this thread for the rest of the season because the Google method is too unreliable. EDIT: I opened the week 7 template and it shows Patriots. Furthermore, I counted a 10-4 record for week 7 for me. That brings my total for the season to 66 correct picks, but your standings show only 64. What's up with that? |
There were two "RolStoppable" entries for Week 7: I assumed it was your way of trying to edit your picks since the manual method of doing so wasn't working out last time. I took the later one assuming it was your intentioned changed picks. The second "Rolstoppable" had two more incorrect picks, which explains the 66 vs. 64 discrepancy.
If the second wasn't you, then that...is strange, to say the least. I suppose I can just require email addresses to get around that, but it's bizarre to see someone trying to impersonate someone else on a prediction league.
EDIT: Upon further scrutiny, it looks like the second RolStoppable didn't have the s capitalized, which I suppose should've been something of a giveaway.
Did anyone here...enter a separate pick list for Rol to prank me or something?
EDIT v2.0: Decided to go back through the version history to see if maybe I had accidentally somehow changed someone else's name to Rol's, and I hadn't. Assuming it wasn't you, then some other person definitely submitted their picks under your tag.