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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Scarlett Will Prioritize Frame Rate Over Graphics

Tagged games:

 

Do you prefer 60/4k with reduced visuals or 30/4k with increased visuals?

YES! 30 40.00%
 
No. 5 6.67%
 
Depends on the game. 32 42.67%
 
I dont care. 8 10.67%
 
Total:75
Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Eh, the leap from 480p to 720p was pretty significant to the presentation of games, its about triple the pixels. I can still tolerate 720p actually, even on a 4K screen. Playing games at 480p in comparison is not great.

Developers could simply build games around 60 fps if that was really a priority. Specs aren't the problem per se.

480P in a 16:9 format is 854x480 = 409,920 pixels. (Many Switch games in portable mode run at around this resolution!)
720P in a 16:9 format is 1280x720 = 921,600 pixels.

So more like a doubling of pixels.

480P can look great, depending on scaling and the input method in-use. I.E. The PS2/OG Xbox/Gamecube/Wii/Xbox 360 "version" of 480P tends to not look great on a HDTV due to composite/Component being used.

Of course you also have another aspect to consider... Perceived Pixels Per Inch... Smaller+further away the screen, the less resolution you need... TV sizes exploded when Full High-Definition became the norm, thus lower resolutions started to look dated very quickly on newer and larger panels.

I have a CRT in my games room and older games that are 480P look far better on the 27" CRT than my 75" LCD panel.

I thought 720x480 was 16:9 because that's a fairly common widescreen resolution in gaming and video.

Either way, I don't think we really had much 480p content actually doing 854x480 due to lack of support. Consoles capable of 480p were really doing 640x480, but games did go natively lower to reduce GPU load.

Even when games were doing widescreen they didn't really change to a 16:9 resolution. I believe they just made the picture narrow so it would look normal when stretched wide. A few PC games actually allowed this. You could run the game at 4:3 ratio like 800x600, but there would be option to make it widescreen. I think Halo 2 did this, it ran smoother than just using 1280x720 and still looked pretty good.

I was comparing 640x480 to 1280x720p as these were the common resolutions in console gaming. Either way, even the sub HD games like CoD on 7th gen look much sharper than 480p.

Yeah, old games look much better on CRT TVs. It softens the pixels, old games also look pretty good on projector even though its HD.

When I had my Wii connected I actually used component cables. I prefer games look pixelated versus muddy on standard RCA cables.

Either way, just increasing the resolution 240p and 480p 3D games to 720p makes a world of difference in clarity. He was complaining about the transition of SD to HD. I think it was a very needed transition.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 04 December 2019

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Mr Puggsly said:
Pemalite said:

480P in a 16:9 format is 854x480 = 409,920 pixels. (Many Switch games in portable mode run at around this resolution!)
720P in a 16:9 format is 1280x720 = 921,600 pixels.

So more like a doubling of pixels.

480P can look great, depending on scaling and the input method in-use. I.E. The PS2/OG Xbox/Gamecube/Wii/Xbox 360 "version" of 480P tends to not look great on a HDTV due to composite/Component being used.

Of course you also have another aspect to consider... Perceived Pixels Per Inch... Smaller+further away the screen, the less resolution you need... TV sizes exploded when Full High-Definition became the norm, thus lower resolutions started to look dated very quickly on newer and larger panels.

I have a CRT in my games room and older games that are 480P look far better on the 27" CRT than my 75" LCD panel.

I thought 720x480 was 16:9 because that's a fairly common widescreen resolution in gaming and video.

Either way, I don't think we really had much 480p content actually doing 854x480 due to lack of support. Consoles capable of 480p were really doing 640x480, but games did go natively lower to reduce GPU load.

Even when games were doing widescreen they didn't really change to a 16:9 resolution. I believe they just made the picture narrow so it would look normal when stretched wide. A few PC games actually allowed this. You could run the game at 4:3 ratio like 800x600, but there would be option to make it widescreen. I think Halo 2 did this, it ran smoother than just using 1280x720 and still looked pretty good.

I was comparing 640x480 to 1280x720p as these were the common resolutions in console gaming. Either way, even the sub HD games like CoD on 7th gen look much sharper than 480p.

Yeah, old games look much better on CRT TVs. It softens the pixels, old games also look pretty good on projector even though its HD.

When I had my Wii connected I actually used component cables. I prefer games look pixelated versus muddy on standard RCA cables.

Either way, just increasing the resolution 240p and 480p 3D games to 720p makes a world of difference in clarity. He was complaining about the transition of SD to HD. I think it was a very needed transition.

That's because CRTs are capable of displaying native resolution from source rather than fixed nature of LCD/Plasma/OLED.

Its a crying shame that that technology was dropped. SED technology held such promise before it was abandoned for LCD and Plasma. It also had considerably higher contrast ratio and lower input lag to boot.



Mr Puggsly said:

I thought 720x480 was 16:9 because that's a fairly common widescreen resolution in gaming and video.nce in clarity. He was complaining about the transition of SD to HD. I think it was a very needed transition.

Nope. It is 854x480. 16:9 is the ratio or 409,920.

720x480 is a 4:3 ratio... Or 345,600 pixels.
The PAL variant is 720x576 which is 5:4 ratio or 414,720 pixels.

Feel free to throw some numbers into this calculator.
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/ratios.php

Yes it was a very needed transition, but it wasn't as dramatic in terms of pixel count as 1080P to 4k or 720P to 1440P.

Mr Puggsly said:

Either way, I don't think we really had much 480p content actually doing 854x480 due to lack of support. Consoles capable of 480p were really doing 640x480, but games did go natively lower to reduce GPU load.

Depends on the console.
In general any console that is doing 480P widescreen is likely doing 854x480 scaling. I.E. Gamecube, Wii, Original Xbox, Xbox 360.
The rendering resolution may differ from that.

Older consoles like the Nintendo 64, Playstation 1, Sega Saturn will tend to fall towards 320x240 with some titles being 640x480.

Mr Puggsly said:

Even when games were doing widescreen they didn't really change to a 16:9 resolution. I believe they just made the picture narrow so it would look normal when stretched wide. A few PC games actually allowed this. You could run the game at 4:3 ratio like 800x600, but there would be option to make it widescreen. I think Halo 2 did this, it ran smoother than just using 1280x720 and still looked pretty good.

Again. Depends on console and the output methods used. That didn't really happen on the OG Xbox with component.

Mr Puggsly said:

I was comparing 640x480 to 1280x720p as these were the common resolutions in console gaming. Either way, even the sub HD games like CoD on 7th gen look much sharper than 480p.

They are sharper because of the output method being digital rather than analogue.

Mr Puggsly said:

Yeah, old games look much better on CRT TVs. It softens the pixels, old games also look pretty good on projector even though its HD.

Lots of aspects to consider like progressive vs interlace scanning as well.

Mr Puggsly said:

When I had my Wii connected I actually used component cables. I prefer games look pixelated versus muddy on standard RCA cables.

Component is generally better than composite due to the extra channels employed for the video.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 06 December 2019

--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

hinch said:

That's because CRTs are capable of displaying native resolution from source rather than fixed nature of LCD/Plasma/OLED.

Its a crying shame that that technology was dropped. SED technology held such promise before it was abandoned for LCD and Plasma. It also had considerably higher contrast ratio and lower input lag to boot.

I just read through the link... Wow, that actually sucks. I looks like it acts like OLED in many respects and has quite a few advantages over plasma and LCD. It's a wonder what SED could have been had Toshiba actually followed through with it.



Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I thought 720x480 was 16:9 because that's a fairly common widescreen resolution in gaming and video.nce in clarity. He was complaining about the transition of SD to HD. I think it was a very needed transition.

Nope. It is 854x480. 16:9 is the ratio or 409x920.

720x480 is a 4:3 ratio... Or 345,600 pixels.
The PAL variant is 720x576 which is 5:4 ratio or 414,720 pixels.

Feel free to throw some numbers into this calculator.
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/ratios.php

Yes it was a very needed transition, but it wasn't as dramatic in terms of pixel count as 1080P to 4k or 720P to 1440P.

Mr Puggsly said:

Either way, I don't think we really had much 480p content actually doing 854x480 due to lack of support. Consoles capable of 480p were really doing 640x480, but games did go natively lower to reduce GPU load.

Depends on the console.
In general any console that is doing 480P widescreen is likely doing 854x480 scaling. I.E. Gamecube, Wii, Original Xbox, Xbox 360.
The rendering resolution may differ from that.

Older consoles like the Nintendo 64, Playstation 1, Sega Saturn will tend to fall towards 320x240 with some titles being 640x480.

Mr Puggsly said:

Even when games were doing widescreen they didn't really change to a 16:9 resolution. I believe they just made the picture narrow so it would look normal when stretched wide. A few PC games actually allowed this. You could run the game at 4:3 ratio like 800x600, but there would be option to make it widescreen. I think Halo 2 did this, it ran smoother than just using 1280x720 and still looked pretty good.

Again. Depends on console and the output methods used. That didn't really happen on the OG Xbox with component.

Mr Puggsly said:

I was comparing 640x480 to 1280x720p as these were the common resolutions in console gaming. Either way, even the sub HD games like CoD on 7th gen look much sharper than 480p.

They are sharper because of the output method being digital rather than analogue.

Mr Puggsly said:

Yeah, old games look much better on CRT TVs. It softens the pixels, old games also look pretty good on projector even though its HD.

Lots of aspects to consider like progressive vs interlace scanning as well.

Mr Puggsly said:

When I had my Wii connected I actually used component cables. I prefer games look pixelated versus muddy on standard RCA cables.

Component is generally better than composite due to the extra channels employed for the video.

The move to 480p to 720p was a very significant transition in regard to what our eyes can easily perceive. As was moving from 240p to 480p. The transition to 1080p and 4K wasn't as obvious, even if the number of pixels grew significantly.

From the little research I did, I'm pretty sure 6th gen consoles and Wii were primarily doing 640x480 natively in games, lower wasn't unusual to help performance. Although its worth noting the original Xbox had a surprising large list of games that did 720p.

Component is analog yet its at par wit HDMI. Also just by adjusting the resolution in PC games, its obvious that 480p and 720p are a world of difference.



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Mr Puggsly said:

The move to 480p to 720p was a very significant transition in regard to what our eyes can easily perceive. As was moving from 240p to 480p. The transition to 1080p and 4K wasn't as obvious, even if the number of pixels grew significantly.

I agree. The move from 480P to 720P was a significant transition.
Some consoles (Like the Switch and WiiU) are able to show us the differences of say... 480P and 720P in real time though.

It's not as significant though as the transition from 6th gen to 7th gen +480P to 720P, because that also generally had an accompanying shift in output technology. (Analogue to Digital.)

The shift to 4k can be just as big, all depends on your panel size and how far you sit from it, but it's very noticeable when I shift from the Xbox One X with a game racing towards a 4k output to a Nintendo Switch/Xbox One/Playstation 4 game which tops out at 1080P.

Mr Puggsly said:

From the little research I did, I'm pretty sure 6th gen consoles and Wii were primarily doing 640x480 natively in games, lower wasn't unusual to help performance. Although its worth noting the original Xbox had a surprising large list of games that did 720p.

640x480 and 720x480 titles typically relied on Anamorphic widescreen on the Gamecube and Wii. That's the output.
Doesn't mean they aren't rendering games internally at 854x480... In-fact many games on Gamecube and Wii did 512x448 or less.
I.E. Dragon Ball Budokai 2 was 512x224 on the Gamecube or 224P.

However the Wii's internal frambuffer allows for 854x480.

Worthy of mention is that the WiiU's gamepad is also 480P or 854x480 and many switch games fall to that same resolution.

But for a true 480P 16:9 widescreen image the resolution is most certainly 854×480.

Mr Puggsly said:

Component is analog yet its at par wit HDMI. Also just by adjusting the resolution in PC games, its obvious that 480p and 720p are a world of difference.

Component is nowhere near HDMI. - Component tops out at 1080 interlaced for starters...
I have a component+composite+HDMI cable for the Xbox 360 and the difference is night and day. HDMI > Component > Composite in that order.

The difference between 480P and 720P differences and how pronounced those differences are... Of course stems from display type (I.E. Native resolution), display size and distance from the display.
The difference between 480P and 720P on a PC via CRT monitor is stuff all.
The difference between 480P and 720P on an LCD panel which is 720P/1080P native is massive.

Digital Foundry did a CRT breakdown just recently, go check that video out.




--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

ironmanDX said:
hinch said:

That's because CRTs are capable of displaying native resolution from source rather than fixed nature of LCD/Plasma/OLED.

Its a crying shame that that technology was dropped. SED technology held such promise before it was abandoned for LCD and Plasma. It also had considerably higher contrast ratio and lower input lag to boot.

I just read through the link... Wow, that actually sucks. I looks like it acts like OLED in many respects and has quite a few advantages over plasma and LCD. It's a wonder what SED could have been had Toshiba actually followed through with it.

Yeah it looked like the ideal technology for monitors, for sure. Fast refresh, low input lag and native contrast 30,000:1+, with no screen burn in. I was looking forward to see more, but alas it turned to vaporware.

The only thing I hope for now is MicroLED displays, which won't come cheap.



Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

The move to 480p to 720p was a very significant transition in regard to what our eyes can easily perceive. As was moving from 240p to 480p. The transition to 1080p and 4K wasn't as obvious, even if the number of pixels grew significantly.

I agree. The move from 480P to 720P was a significant transition.
Some consoles (Like the Switch and WiiU) are able to show us the differences of say... 480P and 720P in real time though.

It's not as significant though as the transition from 6th gen to 7th gen +480P to 720P, because that also generally had an accompanying shift in output technology. (Analogue to Digital.)

The shift to 4k can be just as big, all depends on your panel size and how far you sit from it, but it's very noticeable when I shift from the Xbox One X with a game racing towards a 4k output to a Nintendo Switch/Xbox One/Playstation 4 game which tops out at 1080P.

Mr Puggsly said:

From the little research I did, I'm pretty sure 6th gen consoles and Wii were primarily doing 640x480 natively in games, lower wasn't unusual to help performance. Although its worth noting the original Xbox had a surprising large list of games that did 720p.

640x480 and 720x480 titles typically relied on Anamorphic widescreen on the Gamecube and Wii. That's the output.
Doesn't mean they aren't rendering games internally at 854x480... In-fact many games on Gamecube and Wii did 512x448 or less.
I.E. Dragon Ball Budokai 2 was 512x224 on the Gamecube or 224P.

However the Wii's internal frambuffer allows for 854x480.

Worthy of mention is that the WiiU's gamepad is also 480P or 854x480 and many switch games fall to that same resolution.

But for a true 480P 16:9 widescreen image the resolution is most certainly 854×480.

Mr Puggsly said:

Component is analog yet its at par wit HDMI. Also just by adjusting the resolution in PC games, its obvious that 480p and 720p are a world of difference.

Component is nowhere near HDMI. - Component tops out at 1080 interlaced for starters...
I have a component+composite+HDMI cable for the Xbox 360 and the difference is night and day. HDMI > Component > Composite in that order.

The difference between 480P and 720P differences and how pronounced those differences are... Of course stems from display type (I.E. Native resolution), display size and distance from the display.
The difference between 480P and 720P on a PC via CRT monitor is stuff all.
The difference between 480P and 720P on an LCD panel which is 720P/1080P native is massive.

Digital Foundry did a CRT breakdown just recently, go check that video out.

Even if a 480p console had a digital output, the games are still gonna look bad on a HD screen due to low resolution. I was playing with Halo Reach's resolution settings on PC, I can assure 480p looks terrible. But fine you want a OG Xbox flavor.

I've played games varying from 720p to 4K on large screens (60-70"). I still say the disparity there isn't as big as 480p to 720p. Not all games running 720p is equal of course, AA has become so advanced that 720p experiences can look surprisingly good. While others can be more muddy or pixelated.

480p looks okay on a small screen like the Wii U tablet and sometimes Switch games are doing that resolution. Vita was often doing 480p or lower in demanding games. Even 240p has been acceptable on the tiny 3DS screen.

If a game like DB on Gamecube is doing 512x224, doesn't make sense to call it 224p because the ratio is so unusual. Same goes for modern games doing 1920x2160, like RDR2 on PS4 Pro.

From what I've seen component is capable of 1080p, not just 1080i. I think this depends on the television, older TVs might be limited to 1080i. From my experience and what I've read, component can be at par with HDMI.



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Isn't performance optimization up to the developers and not the console itself?



mikicezanne said:
Isn't performance optimization up to the developers and not the console itself?

Largely, yes. Hence why we need to pay very close attention to how Xbox One X games run on Scarlett. Any hint of dynamic scaling down to 1440P and frame drops and it's a sign Scarlett is underpowered out the gate.

Nothing currently available should in any way be taxing to Scarlett. Even unoptimized, Scarlett should be able brute force titles like X1X RDR2 without breaking a sweat.