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Are we all becoming pagan again?

Forums - Politics Discussion - Are we all becoming pagan again?

curl-6 said:
o_O.Q said:

"Weighing the opinion of a qualified expert with more significance than someone unqualified"

the pertinent question here is whether the science and values at play are correct, this hasn't been the case many times in the past and in the future looking back on this current era more examples will probably arise

my point is just that we assume the paradigm within which the experts are operating is correct and to me that's silly because we obviously still have problems so we need to keep an open mind

"And there's nothing supernatural involved."

more than 95% of the observable matter in the universe cannot be accurately classified by our top scientists, if you classify supernatural to be anything outside of what we know and understand, i'd argue that the chances of it existing are pretty much confirmed

At any point we can only go with the best information we have at the time, and the best method for attaining that is one which is empirical for the simple reason of practicality; if something can be proven to be true, that obviously trumps just assuming it's true,

And no, I wouldn't classify it that way, I'd classify it as the assumption of the existence of something for which there's no scientific basis.

"At any point we can only go with the best information we have at the time"

yes that's my point, but as we grow and learn our paradigm changes because we incorporate more knowledge into our understanding

"if something can be proven to be true"

nothing can really be proven to be true though, we make the assumption based on repetition

"And no, I wouldn't classify it that way, I'd classify it as the assumption of the existence of something for which there's no scientific basis"

if our science can't classify or measure something, how could you argue that there is a scientific basis for it?



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o_O.Q said:
curl-6 said:

At any point we can only go with the best information we have at the time, and the best method for attaining that is one which is empirical for the simple reason of practicality; if something can be proven to be true, that obviously trumps just assuming it's true,

And no, I wouldn't classify it that way, I'd classify it as the assumption of the existence of something for which there's no scientific basis.

"At any point we can only go with the best information we have at the time"

yes that's my point, but as we grow and learn our paradigm changes because we incorporate more knowledge into our understanding

"if something can be proven to be true"

nothing can really be proven to be true though, we make the assumption based on repetition

"And no, I wouldn't classify it that way, I'd classify it as the assumption of the existence of something for which there's no scientific basis"

if our science can't classify or measure something, how could you argue that there is a scientific basis for it?

If something cannot be quantified or demonstrated, if no empirical evidence exists to substantiate it, then I personally see no reason to believe it exists until such time, if ever, that it can be empirically demonstrated. 

That's just me. I'm a natural skeptic I guess.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 15 August 2019

Pemalite said:
mysteryman said:

Likewise how do you determine right and wrong? 

Certainly not from a religious book full of pretty terrible stances that promotes mass murder (1 Chronicles 21), Genocide (Deuteronomy 3), Death to those who believe in other Religions/Gods (2 Kings 10:18-27), Slavery and selling our daughter into Slavery (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), Bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). - Granted that is all Old Testament, which many Christians will not follow unless it suits them (I.E. Leviticus against Homosexuality.)

But I could list some horrible stuff in the New Testament as well...

Not to mention that the New Testament is still binding to the Old Testament.

* “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)

* “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)


So how do I determine right from wrong? How does anyone? Empathy, pain, fear... Devices that are driven by life experience, governed by chemical processes that I alluded to prior... Matt Dillahunty could probably explain it better than I can though.

That's not using the scientific method though. At some fundamental level there is a core belief at work (doesn't need to be religious).

curl-6 said:
mysteryman said:

What do you do when you reach the limitations of the scientific method? When something is simply not testable?

Likewise how do you determine right and wrong? 

Well, speaking as an athiest, I use my conscience to determine what I think is right or wrong. You don't need religion to have empathy and compassion.

Agreed. I was speaking more to using only the scientific method, which doesn't inherently speak to morality.



mysteryman said:
Pemalite said:

So how do I determine right from wrong? How does anyone? Empathy, pain, fear... Devices that are driven by life experience, governed by chemical processes that I alluded to prior... Matt Dillahunty could probably explain it better than I can though.

That's not using the scientific method though. At some fundamental level there is a core belief at work (doesn't need to be religious).

It is most certainly backed by the scientific method.

o_O.Q said:

nothing can really be proven to be true though, we make the assumption based on repetition

We can prove something to be true to such a large extent by having enough empirical evidence as to remove all doubt. - But what has no evidence? The God claim.

o_O.Q said:

"False assumption considering you haven't provided a single shred of evidentiary support in this thread thus far."

i'm not the one making vast assertions on how things work


"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory"

how does this substantiate your argument?

How doesn't it?

o_O.Q said:

"False."

elaboration on how?

Really? He doesn't have to do a damn thing.

o_O.Q said:

"Genetic and environmental factors can cause irrational reactions to something"

"can" is very different to "always cause"

Everyone has a tolerance spectrum, so there is obviously some measurable deviation.

o_O.Q said:

"Another name is the "Fight or Flight response"."

fight or flight responses are evolved reactions that occur before a person's conscious mind is able to process what the threat is properly

this is obviously different to someone actually consciously perceiving something like cotton balls and having a response

Which is governed by electro-chemical impulses governed by our brains... You know that thing you asked me to prove? Yeah. That. Which I did.

The brain is a highly complex organ, the fight or flight response is most certainly governed by parts of the brain... And can certainly include conscious thought, not always, but can.

o_O.Q said:

"Sexuality is a spectrum."

its not and it obviously can't be since sex occurs through the interaction of bodies, the primary sexual characteristics of those bodies follow two forms - penis and vagina... sure there's also anal sex but obviously sexuality is bounded by how our bodies develop

You are conflating sex with sexuality. In short... You are confused about the topic... I highly suggest you read up on sexuality and sex and how they differ.

o_O.Q said:

"But other species have "identified" as other animals... You raise a squirrel with kittens and it will start to purr."

animals cannot "identify" as anything, they are not self aware

sure they may change their behavior depending on their environment but its not a purposeful self-conscious imitation of some other group

If an animal starts to mimic the species of another, then they identify as such.

Those who are Trans don't just come out and say "I Identify as a man" to everyone they meet. - They look, behave and act like a man from the outset.

o_O.Q said:

"And that enjoyable feeling from that chemical reaction promotes repetition of an activity."

ok then why don't people cheat on their lovers anytime the opportunity presents itself? if its just about the dopamine rush?

You make it sound as if people cheating is something that doesn't happen in the general populace? WELL. Do I  have a few stories to tell...

People can override the dopamine rush with conscious decisions, it's called "Self control". - Just like how some people can "decide" to eat healthy (As sugar can create a dopamine rush too!) or give up cigarettes.

o_O.Q said:

"Consciousness is a very subjective term and is difficult to quantify either way"

primarily because we don't really understand it

We understand more than you think.



JWeinCom said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I don't think people need religion per se to have empathy and compassion, but people certainly need a culture that promotes these things.

Otherwise you end up with Chicago or Baltimore!

A religious culture does not necessarily promote empathy and compassion.  Likewise a secular culture does not necessarily not promote empathy and compassion.  

It doesent matter where the compassion comes from. It just needs to be part of the culture.

Personally I dont think lack of religion will lead to a moral decline. But a government that goes lax on crime and continued decline of the family unit helps.



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