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House minority leader trying to blame video games for mass shootings. Update: Walmart pulls violent video game ads for 2 weeks

Forums - Politics Discussion - House minority leader trying to blame video games for mass shootings. Update: Walmart pulls violent video game ads for 2 weeks

Nighthawk117 said:

I blame the current state of affairs on the Columbine shooting. It happened back in April of 1999.
The assault weapons ban was passed in 1994 (it expired in 2004), and did not prevent this mass shooting.

The shooters were motivated from watching the movie "The Matrix," which had released only 1 month earlier.
Therefore, I blame Hollywood for glorifying guns - making them look cool to own - much like Hollywood did
with cigarettes for decades. Hollywood is the problem, not video games.

Is this satire?

I mean, its so ridiculous, it is really quite hard to tell.



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konnichiwa said:
Michael Pachter
@michaelpachter
Video games are huge in almost every one of these countries

OBVIOUSLY we don't have videogames in the rest of the world! We got rid of them after THIS disaster!

Certainly not the promotion of crazy right-wing racism and the militarization of those crazy right-wingers that causes the shooting deaths.

Last edited by Jumpin - on 09 August 2019

I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Pemalite said:
Azzanation said:

This is where people are blinded by forceful decisions because people only want to push the blame on something. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Drugs don't kill people, people taking drugs kills people.
Ergo drugs should be legalized and readily available in brick and mortar stores right?

Azzanation said:

You can try to take Guns away from people.. guess what, you will be only taking guns away from good people, the bad guys will still have guns. That will be the outcome because Guns are not the issue, its deeper than guns.

You can try to take Drugs away from people.. guess what, you will be only taking Drugs away from good people, the bad guys will still have Drugs. That will be the outcome because Drugs are not the issue, its deeper than Drugs.

Exact same argument.

I do have to ask though legitimately after poking holes through your highly flawed logic, why are you ignoring how successful other countries have been in enacting gun control? It's saved countless lives. Are lives not highly valued where you come from?

Azzanation said:

Humans need to stop blaming things on other things and instead find the real issues behind them. Guns and Video games are not why these shootings happen. Evil people will be evil people regardless if they have guns or not.

The same arguments you have presented could also be leveraged for the legalization and sale of Meth in brick and mortar stores, if you cannot see how such rhetoric is ultimately flawed... And if you are willing to ignore the substantial evidence that many developed nations have in regards to the success of gun control... I am not sure you could be convinced of anything at this point... And thus perhaps this entire discussion is moot?

That is a flawed logic on your end. Taking drugs and buying a gun are two completely different things. How can you even say they are the same thing? Buying a gun is harmless, buying a car is harmless. Both can be used in a very dangerous manner and they have both killed people. Your comparison is like saying, buying a gun is no different to eating Rat poison. Umm.. yeah is it, Meth is bad, it harms your health, there is no bright side to taking meth. Having a gun is like owning a Sword or big Knife, it can be used for hobbies, people like to collect etc. Drugs? That's a face palm.

You are answering your own debate. Try taking drugs away from people, we have, how has that worked in the land of no drugs? Do people still take drugs? do people still die from drug use? Do drugs still get sold regardless of the law enforcement? You should know the answer to that.

Great, place more laws on gun control, I want them too and I understand people can still have guns with laws in place.. however my debate with you is that it wont make a difference because criminals and killers will still get the guns and still go on massacres. Do you actually think by adding more laws with guns that these things will suddenly stop? especially in a country with a massive black market scene? Why do we have a big death toll on the road? People have to go out and get a license, we enforce the road rules a lot, especially in Australia.. why are there still deaths? Nice having rules in place, feels more like government control than actual life saving. Same with guns. 

You know who else didn't want the public to have guns? Hitler. How did that go for Germany, oh that's right, the public was dictated and couldn't do a thing about it. They couldn't even defend themselves.



VAMatt said:
I'll go ahead and bow out of this conversation after this. What we seem to have here is a bunch of non-Americans pretending to speak on American culture, and life in the USA with authority. There are a couple of Americans in here trying to constructively contribute to the conversation, with first-hand knowledge and experience. But, many of y'all persist in thinking that you know better than the people that actually live through this stuff. I hope you guys recognize that you are simply living in a state of ignorance. You all might think back on the old adage about statistics and who uses them.

Also, this topic should be moved to the politics forum. It hasn't really been about gaming for a couple of days now.

Your entire argument is a logical fallacy... You are trying to undermine your opponents views by taking approaches not related to the topic at hand. (I.E. Claiming that users haven't visited/lived in the USA). - Not only do you not know that for sure (I have actually been to the USA.) but adds absolutely zero credibility to your arguments. If anything, does the complete opposite.

Those outside of the USA can form and base their perspectives on the empirical evidence that has been presented and thus make direct comparisons to other pieces of evidence that has been presented. - Evidence being the key word here. - Ignorance is what you are propagating by attempting to discard empirical evidence for your anecdotal evidence... And not the other way around, so stop pretending it is.

This is why some people believe the Earth to be flat, because they would rather opt for their Anecdotal evidence over empirical evidence.



Pemalite said:
VAMatt said:
I'll go ahead and bow out of this conversation after this. What we seem to have here is a bunch of non-Americans pretending to speak on American culture, and life in the USA with authority. There are a couple of Americans in here trying to constructively contribute to the conversation, with first-hand knowledge and experience. But, many of y'all persist in thinking that you know better than the people that actually live through this stuff. I hope you guys recognize that you are simply living in a state of ignorance. You all might think back on the old adage about statistics and who uses them.

Also, this topic should be moved to the politics forum. It hasn't really been about gaming for a couple of days now.

Your entire argument is a logical fallacy... You are trying to undermine your opponents views by taking approaches not related to the topic at hand. (I.E. Claiming that users haven't visited/lived in the USA). - Not only do you not know that for sure (I have actually been to the USA.) but adds absolutely zero credibility to your arguments. If anything, does the complete opposite.

Those outside of the USA can form and base their perspectives on the empirical evidence that has been presented and thus make direct comparisons to other pieces of evidence that has been presented. - Evidence being the key word here. - Ignorance is what you are propagating by attempting to discard empirical evidence for your anecdotal evidence... And not the other way around, so stop pretending it is.

This is why some people believe the Earth to be flat, because they would rather opt for their Anecdotal evidence over empirical evidence.

At no point have I refuted any statistics in this thread.  I've simply claimed that many people here seem to lack the context necessary to understand what those numbers mean. In other words, your use of cherry picked stats to form a picture of life in the US is exactly the problem here.  



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Azzanation said:
Pemalite said:

Drugs don't kill people, people taking drugs kills people.
Ergo drugs should be legalized and readily available in brick and mortar stores right?

You can try to take Drugs away from people.. guess what, you will be only taking Drugs away from good people, the bad guys will still have Drugs. That will be the outcome because Drugs are not the issue, its deeper than Drugs.

Exact same argument.

I do have to ask though legitimately after poking holes through your highly flawed logic, why are you ignoring how successful other countries have been in enacting gun control? It's saved countless lives. Are lives not highly valued where you come from?

The same arguments you have presented could also be leveraged for the legalization and sale of Meth in brick and mortar stores, if you cannot see how such rhetoric is ultimately flawed... And if you are willing to ignore the substantial evidence that many developed nations have in regards to the success of gun control... I am not sure you could be convinced of anything at this point... And thus perhaps this entire discussion is moot?

That is a flawed logic on your end. Taking drugs and buying a gun are two completely different things. How can you even say they are the same thing? Buying a gun is harmless, buying a car is harmless. Both can be used in a very dangerous manner and they have both killed people. Your comparison is like saying, buying a gun is no different to eating Rat poison. Umm.. yeah is it, Meth is bad, it harms your health, there is no bright side to taking meth. Having a gun is like owning a Sword or big Knife, it can be used for hobbies, people like to collect etc. Drugs? That's a face palm.

You are answering your own debate. Try taking drugs away from people, we have, how has that worked in the land of no drugs? Do people still take drugs? do people still die from drug use? Do drugs still get sold regardless of the law enforcement? You should know the answer to that.

Great, place more laws on gun control, I want them too and I understand people can still have guns with laws in place.. however my debate with you is that it wont make a difference because criminals and killers will still get the guns and still go on massacres. Do you actually think by adding more laws with guns that these things will suddenly stop? especially in a country with a massive black market scene? Why do we have a big death toll on the road? People have to go out and get a license, we enforce the road rules a lot, especially in Australia.. why are there still deaths? Nice having rules in place, feels more like government control than actual life saving. Same with guns. 

You know who else didn't want the public to have guns? Hitler. How did that go for Germany, oh that's right, the public was dictated and couldn't do a thing about it. They couldn't even defend themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Ding Ding.

Took longer than expected.

You keep mentioning the fact that there is a massive black market scene in the states regarding the sales of guns, what you mean by that is that it's possible to get a weapon illegally in the States very easily, one of the major contributing factors for it being possible for a person to get a weapon where they shouldn't be able to get it... is because there is lots of weapons readily available to a great many people within the law, if I want to get a hold of a gun here where I am I'll need to do some digging around to firstly find a person with one that I can then try to buy it from, if every other person around me could legally buy a gun then it would become a whole lot easier for me to get one by offering someone of my daft mates who needs cash some to go buy me a gun to use.

Take it back to the war on drugs, how much harder would it be to prevent people illegally taking drugs if you were to open up stores which sold drugs to people legally? So you could prevent people from getting access to drugs if they were going to take them to get high or to abuse the substances to the point where they self harm or harm others.... but you perfectly allowed anyone who seemed to have a solid head on them and know how to correctly keep their drugs locked up in a safe where they didn't hurt anyone, so everyone who was planning to keep the drugs and not shoot.... up with them, could buy loads of drugs and keep them in drug safes. Realistically now.... how much more easily would it be for someone who wanted some drugs to do harm with... how much easier has it become in that scenario for them to get drugs from someone? That is why you have such a large marketplace of buying guns illegally, because there are tons of them in circulation there sold perfectly legally to someone, then either stolen or sold to someone who already has a criminal record and wants a gun for a crime.



Fancy hearing me on an amateur podcast with friends gushing over one of my favourite games? https://youtu.be/1I7JfMMxhf8

VAMatt said:
Pemalite said:

Your entire argument is a logical fallacy... You are trying to undermine your opponents views by taking approaches not related to the topic at hand. (I.E. Claiming that users haven't visited/lived in the USA). - Not only do you not know that for sure (I have actually been to the USA.) but adds absolutely zero credibility to your arguments. If anything, does the complete opposite.

Those outside of the USA can form and base their perspectives on the empirical evidence that has been presented and thus make direct comparisons to other pieces of evidence that has been presented. - Evidence being the key word here. - Ignorance is what you are propagating by attempting to discard empirical evidence for your anecdotal evidence... And not the other way around, so stop pretending it is.

This is why some people believe the Earth to be flat, because they would rather opt for their Anecdotal evidence over empirical evidence.

At no point have I refuted any statistics in this thread.  I've simply claimed that many people here seem to lack the context necessary to understand what those numbers mean. In other words, your use of cherry picked stats to form a picture of life in the US is exactly the problem here.  

The context is why there is constructive discussion being had.

We are not cherry-picking statistics to form an idea of what life is like daily in the United States, we are using statistics to point out there is a damn big problem and peoples lives are being lost.

Azzanation said:

That is a flawed logic on your end. Taking drugs and buying a gun are two completely different things. How can you even say they are the same thing? 

Taking drugs and buying a gun are the same thing. You are buying a product.
How that product is generally used is what makes it nefarious.

Azzanation said:

Buying a gun is harmless, buying a car is harmless. Both can be used in a very dangerous manner and they have both killed people. Your comparison is like saying, buying a gun is no different to eating Rat poison. Umm.. yeah is it, Meth is bad, it harms your health, there is no bright side to taking meth. Having a gun is like owning a Sword or big Knife, it can be used for hobbies, people like to collect etc. Drugs? That's a face palm.

Buying drugs is harmless. Guns can be bad and can also harm your health.

And sometimes drugs can save lives. Just like a gun.

Sometimes drugs can be used for hobbies just like a gun. (Amyl/Poppers for example)

Azzanation said:

You are answering your own debate. Try taking drugs away from people, we have, how has that worked in the land of no drugs? Do people still take drugs? do people still die from drug use? Do drugs still get sold regardless of the law enforcement? You should know the answer to that.

So... Are you suggesting we should legalize all drugs and sell them in brick and mortar stores like guns?

Azzanation said:

Great, place more laws on gun control, I want them too and I understand people can still have guns with laws in place.. however my debate with you is that it wont make a difference because criminals and killers will still get the guns and still go on massacres. Do you actually think by adding more laws with guns that these things will suddenly stop? especially in a country with a massive black market scene? Why do we have a big death toll on the road? People have to go out and get a license, we enforce the road rules a lot, especially in Australia.. why are there still deaths? Nice having rules in place, feels more like government control than actual life saving. Same with guns. 

The evidence says it does make a difference. Australia.
Australia has solved gun massacres for the time being.

That needs to be recognized and emulated, it's saved lives.

Azzanation said:

Why do we have a big death toll on the road? People have to go out and get a license, we enforce the road rules a lot, especially in Australia.. why are there still deaths? Nice having rules in place, feels more like government control than actual life saving. Same with guns. 

The Road Toll will exist either way... And is being solved via other avenues, legislation/more laws often have a positive impact in reducing road tolls, not to mention various schemes like "Operation Distraction" that is currently underway in South Australia by Police, Ambulance, Metro Fire, Country Fire, State Emergency Services.

I do work in emergency services and I am a road crash technician, when it comes to car accidents and the road death toll in Australia, I am on the front line... In-fact my training in this manner is the exact same training received world-wide.

So yes, we do go out and get a license, yes road rules exist... But you can bet that they don't exist in a damn vacuum, they have a very real positive effect.... Statistically it is when people blatantly ignore the rules that a large portion of accidents do actually occur.
The last Road Crash I attended for example... A Taxi driver overtook a truck illegally and lost his life because of it, he should have known better.

So what could have been done to ensure it never happens on that stretch of road again? Maybe overtaking lanes or general infrastructure, better signage, better education and certainly better laws.

Azzanation said:

You know who else didn't want the public to have guns? Hitler. How did that go for Germany, oh that's right, the public was dictated and couldn't do a thing about it. They couldn't even defend themselves.

This is why you are wrong.
Gun legislation isn't the complete banning of guns.

Or are you suggesting that a highly advanced, stable, representational democracy is going to suddenly become a dictatorship because it implemented gun legislation?

Keep in mind that Australia was where the USA was on the gun topic decades ago, there was a ton of debate, the same arguments you have presented was the same arguments presented back then... And none of it has come to pass.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 10 August 2019

Ganoncrotch said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Ding Ding.

Took longer than expected.

Theres actually a whole Wikipedia article about that specific argument explaining how historians tend to think it is pretty terrible, so he went beyond just dinging the "Hitler" bell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gun_control_argument



Azzanation said:
curl-6 said:

So what, only the US has mentally ill people? Mental illness is prevalent in every country on Earth, why do countries like Japan or Australia or Canada not have this problem?

I understand your point however, its not the fact USA has guns which is why they have these killings. Ask any US citizen and they will say their* educational system is bad, they dont invest enough resources into schooling etc. 

Also we cannot compare countries with 40m people to a country with 400m. Its a lot* easier to control crime with a lower number of citizens and in this case, Australia or Canada make up 1 entire US city. Thats how big the USA is to those countries. Also Canada and Australia have a better educational system or at least invest more into it than the States. 

Crime is crime, if they wont kill you with a gun, they will kill you with something else. Its why in my opinion taking away something from people to stop crime is just a quick patch up to an issue that wont last long. If a killer wants a gun, they will get one regardless of the laws.

Yes, yes it is. It is distinctly the ease in which any non-felon and non-diagnosed insane person in this country can walk into any random Wal-mart and purchase a weapon. Hell, apparently even if you were expelled from school for having a hit list and a rape list you can still grab weapons and body armor no problem.

The US education system is not the best at the K-12 level due to its one-size-fits-all approach, but at the collegiate level it's leagues above the rest which is why people flock here from across the globe to take advantage of it.

It's vastly more difficult for someone to commit the types of mass slaughter that have become prevalent with something other than semi-automatic rifles. Running away is a viable option against a knife, not so much against a bullet.



Pemalite said: 

SIP

Alright so do you honestly believe if they take the guns away from the people (it will be the only way to come anywhere close to stopping shootings, we cannot just place laws as laws can be broken) that it will actually stop shootings? You believe that a criminal master mind or some mental head wont be able to get a gun or cause a massive crime scene in the US? 

What if after banning guns, another shooting happens, what will they take away next? Video Games? 

Australia is a heavily monitored country where the lack of freedom is laughable compared to the US. You cannot do anything in Australia without being looked at or fined. Cannot even lower your car height to much without it being illegal. But hey, if lowering a car too low is a danger to lives than I guess it makes sense.. oh wait it has nothing to do with saving lives. Its government control. Heck we have the most speed cameras in the world compared to anywhere else because placing cameras down hills and on roads where the speed changes drastically helps prevent lives.. or is it a money making industry? hmm

Drugs and Guns are very different. If you are saying they are the same thing than we might as well put everything into the same barrel. Everything can kill you so we need to monitor and restrict everyone from doing everything. We live in a Country that is so controlled its beyond a joke. We gave in to Gun laws a long time ago, but than shortly after, we gave them everything else, video games getting banned, knifes getting banned, bats, Cars cannot be lowered or have neon lights, highly restricted on modifying cars etc. Australia gave in and now basically we lost more than just guns. People waste there money paying fines they cannot afford because of our government. 

USA still has all that freedom because the public doesn't want to start the dictatorship and start taking freedom away from the citizens. Having a gun is a form of freedom, just like everything else (Not drugs, Drugs are designed to be evil)

But the stupidest thing Australia has going for it, is its Justice system, We allow murderers to walk free after 4 years, we allow mental heads to drive cars and allow idiots to walk the street. Take something away, they will find another avenue or still get what they wanted anyway. 

My final opinion on this matter is I am all for adding more gun laws and removing guns form the streets however.. I don't believe it will solve the shootings. US is too deep with its own problems that the only way to stop these shootings is to actually find these mental idiots and remove them from the streets. 

If you disagree that's okay, but that's just my opinion.