I figured that was pretty much obvious from yanniv's actions and the actions of transsexual people in general?

I thought the very bedrock of their stance is that discrimination between what is a woman and what is a man should only occur on the grounds of self identification?

I don't think it's wrong to post an OP that is neutral and then let it be known where one stands on an issue later on in the thread.

So a women's health practitioner would be discriminating against men if they refused male genital clients?

Sadly very true and exceptionally messed up. This is a male looking for attention, openly admits to wanting to have sex with underage girls because they are 'tighter', and is doing far more harm to the LGBTQ community than any other activist I know of right now.

THe only reason it's doing damage to the LBGTQ community is because when you're in a minority, your actions are assumed to represent the whole group.  Don't get me wrong, this person is fucked up, but if it was a white non-trans person in a similar situation, you wouldn't assess all white males based on that.  You'd just say it's a fucked up person.  But because it's a trans they're doing damage to their whole community as if they're representative of that.

This person pretty clearly is a piece of crap, so I'm not defending them.  But, gender is more complex than that.  For example, they've found that there are physical differences between a trans brain and the brain of a cis-gendered person.  

So... if this is the point you so clearly want to discuss, why didn't you just post it in the OP, instead of pretending you had no opinion?

THe only reason it's doing damage to the LBGTQ community is because when you're in a minority, your actions are assumed to represent the whole group.  Don't get me wrong, this person is fucked up, but if it was a white non-trans person in a similar situation, you wouldn't assess all white males based on that.  You'd just say it's a fucked up person.  But because it's a trans they're doing damage to their whole community as if they're representative of that.

Spot on.

No, it's not that the post is neutral.  It's that the OP is specifically claiming that THEY are neutral in the comments.  That they"don't know what they think about" the topic.  But you can see from OP's subsequent posts that they clearly have an opinion.

It's because a lot of people would simply avoid responding if they knew that they were in for an argument.  Pretending to be neutral gets people to respond that otherwise would not have, and then before they know it, they're in an argument, and because of the way we're wired, they feel compelled to defend it and keep posting.

OP wants to argue about it.  And if he wants to spend his time doing that, more power to him.  But he's trying to bait people into arguing who may not normally be inclined, which is why you saw such a strong reaction.

it wasn't the point I figured was central here since I believe people took this as a given

I listed what i felt were the more relevant points in the op:

what should trans people who have not undergone the transition with regards to their genitals do if they are discriminated against in this way?

Should we allow people to discriminate when it comes to who they choose to serve? 

why are you trying constantly to put words in my mouth throughout this thread? I find it very offensive especially because you've been consistently wrong

"your actions are assumed to represent the whole group."

>by who?

Did you just agree that you treat LGBTQ people differently than white non-trans people? Doesn't seem very nice...

these are my comments from the op

"what should trans people who have not undergone the transition with regards to their genitals do if they are discriminated against in this way?"

" Should we allow people to discriminate when it comes to who they choose to serve?"

since you've now derailed my thread with about 8 comments or so to state that you know for sure what my opinion is can you state what my answers to these two questions would be?

That's the way it comes off to me, and to a lot of people.  

By lots of people. Myself for one.  I definitely tend to treat particular interactions with minorities as representative of the group.  It's something I try not to do, but it definitely happens.  I think it's just how we're programmed.  Making generalizations about a large category of things is great for surviving (i.e. a bee stung me I should stay away from bees).  They're not so great when it comes to treating people fairly.  It's something we have to be vigilant against.

No thank you.  

"That's the way it comes off to me, and to a lot of people.  "

there's nothing to talk about when it comes to this because as I've said its a given, so how could that be the central point i'm arguing?

no one denies that trans people want self identity to be how we determine who is man and who is woman

"No thank you.  "

was me stating that I don't have a firm stance on this in the op a clue that you might be wrong?

Again, no thank you.  I'm flattered you so want me to converse with you, but I don't find it a good use of my time.  And I'd also advise anyone else to avoid it, which was the point of my posting before.  If you try to start a debate, I will simply reply by posting pictures of Nicktoon characters.