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The Stagnant Working Class

Forums - Politics Discussion - The Stagnant Working Class

Snoopy said:

Then stop voting for parties AKA the Democrat party that wants to increase the government's power. Private charities are great because there is a lot to choose from and since they are nonprofit, we know most of our money is going to a good cause instead of the man in the middle aka the government. Also, we can help people like our families or even strangers without private charities. 

We got that technology mostly due to private companies and not the government. The only exception when the government help us with technology and made our lives better is usually through military/defense spending. Which is why I don't mind it as much unless we go to useless wars or pay for useless things.

That's just flat out ridiculous.  The list of technology that derived from NASA alone is damn amazing, not to mention all the work that's been made possible by grants and public funding.



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Snoopy said:
the-pi-guy said:

>wait times

Wait times are complicated to measure.  For one thing in the US a lot of people don't go at all.  Those people don't get counted in the average wait time.  

Another thing is wait times for different things differ.  

>higher taxes

Meaningless if you don't include the difference in healthcare costs.  

>government interference

Some commodities cost less because they get made in the US.  So no it's not "all thanks to government interference".  It's a complicated matter.  

> wait time

No it isn't, it's been proven Canadians have to wait a long time for health care services.

> higher taxes

No, it isn't meaningless. Canada pay more in taxes and commodities. Over the long run, they would pay a lot more than Americans.

 There are places in America where the cost of basic commodities is crazy high such as California because they are run by Democrats who support big government. That's why so many Californians are going to Republican states like Texas and Alabama. 

Republicans actually like to spend more money then most Democrats they just like to spend most of their money on stuff that benefits very few people like the military industrial complex and endless wars.



Chrkeller said:
Mostly because the point of the video is silly. A process showing improvement isn't indicative of an optimal process. Correlation doesn't necessary equate to causality.

The point of the video is that "things are getting worse for the working class" is a myth.  In that, it's quite correct.

What you're arguing is the next point.  One thing at a time guys.



the-pi-guy said:

>wait times

Wait times are complicated to measure.  For one thing in the US a lot of people don't go at all.  Those people don't get counted in the average wait time.  

Another thing is wait times for different things differ.  

Thats the core of my issue with the argument. In Canada, everybody has to wait a bit for certain procedures. In America, we just make sure that the poor simply can't get certain procedures done so the rich don't have to wait. Sure, wait times are better in the US, but which is honestly a more just system?



the-pi-guy said:

FreedomToons tends to make videos mocking liberals, or rather what they think liberals are.  This one is another such video, you can tell because it starts by someone criticizing capitalism.  

If the video didn't start out that way, and it wasn't made by freedomtoons, your slightly different explanation would make more sense.

Yeah, I suppose it's easier to dismiss something based on the people saying it that actually deal with the subject matter and point being brought up.

By all means, continue.



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Snoopy said:
the-pi-guy said:

Everybody understands the video is poking fun at the "hypocrisy" of the "liberals" who complain about capitalism while benefitting from the progress, the technological achievements and the wealth that it has given them.  

Just because someone disagrees with the conclusions of the videos, doesn't mean they don't understand that it's trying to make that point.  

Other countries have more government involvement with healthcare for one, with far better results and at far lower cost. 

Government involvement isn't inherently good or inherently bad, it's up to the policies that the government sets up. 

Not true, only certain aspects are better. For example, Canadians have a longer wait time and way higher taxes. Not to mention the cost for basic commodities in Canada is a lot more expensive than America's products. This is all thanks to government interference. When the U.S. government got out of certain health care aspects such as lasik eye surgery the cost went way down.

No small wonder since most Americans can't afford to go visit a doctor nearly as often as one does in the rest of the world. Going sick to work rather to the doctor because either you can't afford the doctor or not having enough sick leave anymore/saving sick leave for later that year is something most non-Americans only have WTF as their reaction. And even then, the difference in waiting times is in most cases negligible.

The price for commodities has nothing at all to do with this. That's false causality.

Laser eye surgery went down a lot in price worldwide to to technological advancements, not due to any government involvement. Or why do you think my mother's bill in Luxembourg was projected as 12000€ 11 years ago (It wasn't covered yet at the time, so she refused to go through with it), but when she went last year (coverage began in 2015 iirc), it only cost 1800€, over 80% less expensive - and she got her money back from the health ministry.

(For reference, you generally pay in advance here in Luxembourg and get your money, or part of it, back. Operations and Rehabilitation are fully covered and generally paid directly by the health ministry, Antibiotics by 80%, normal Painkillers 60%, other medicines which are proven to work at least a bit 20-80%, Vitamins and the like without any therapeutic proofs are not covered at all. Private Insurance companies do exist and they can offer to bring additional coverage, but except for dental prosthetics (100% coverage instead of 60%), these are very seldom used)

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 14 July 2019

DonFerrari said:
The class that benefited most from capitalism is the working class.

Going from needing to work 16h a day just to eat to 8h and have plenty of luxure is a great bonus

Regulated capitalism indeed,whenever it is free it tends to abuse/drain people to get as much as possible.



NightlyPoe said:
Chrkeller said:
Mostly because the point of the video is silly. A process showing improvement isn't indicative of an optimal process. Correlation doesn't necessary equate to causality.

The point of the video is that "things are getting worse for the working class" is a myth.  In that, it's quite correct.

What you're arguing is the next point.  One thing at a time guys.

But it isn't a myth entirely, but rather is driven by specificity in terms of end market. 

Look man, the video is stupid.  It is shallow and not well thought out.  So I'll get to the point. 

"Things aren't getting worse because cell phones" has nothing to do with college continually becoming out of reach financially.  Same goes for medical expenses.  People having cell phones has nothing to do with the income gap increasing exponentially.  

There are real problems facing the working the class that directly impacts their ability to move up is social class and directly impacts their health.  Wanting to improve those areas isn't a bad idea, because "cell phones."

Additionally, and this is what makes the video beyond stupid, the same "logic" can be applied to China.  China's general population has more technology in the home today when compared to 100 years ago.  Proof communism works, am I right???

Technology is one aspect of "being better off" and cannot be used to extrapolate to a completely unrelated metric.  That is like me performing a biologic survey, I count the number of birds and conclude the reptiles are healthy....

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 14 July 2019

Video is simplistic and was designed to pander to a certain demographic



tsogud said:
Snoopy said:

Republicans, in general, want a smaller government and believe the role of the government is to protect our rights and nothing else. Roe vs Wade already passed and you can get an abortion in most states. The argument is they want to protect an "innocent baby's life". It's a bit of a gray area. I don't mind abortions personally unless it's way late in the cycle such as 36 weeks. Not to get off subject, I do think the government should be interfering with some of these states that think it is okay to kill a baby after it is born. That is just messed up and shouldn't be a Republican/Democrat thing at that point.

Military protection isn't socialism at all. It is something we need to protect our rights. The technology is just a great benefits thanks to military spending. Which is why i don't mind it.

What??? Where are you getting this info? Not one state thinks it's okay to kill a baby after it's born. And late abortions aren't even legal.

So you don't mind the government interfering if you determine the situation is "messed up" according to what you've said. Well I agree, I think it's "messed up" that so many Americans can't afford healthcare or education or housing. The government should step in and create a safety net because what is going on is "messed up."

The military is a socialism. They have free food, healthcare, and education all paid for by our taxes and orchestrated by our government. I agree it is something we need but let's not pretend it isn't a social institution. Here are a couple of articles on the matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RfKoex_4vI

It is happening and there are many horror stories about it.

Americans can't afford health care and education because of the government is involved. Look how cost of college went way up when the federal government got involved.

The military isn't socialism because we all know it is something we need to protect our rights. 

In reality, most of those arms production means are provided by private citizens/companies who compete with each other in free market competition. Lockheed will be an example. Being government-funded doesn't automatically make something socialist. National Defense is considered a basic, reasonable function of government. To put it simply, the government can't function without the military.  Therefore not socialism.