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Should Halo Infinite drop Xbox One and go Scarlet exclusive?

Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Should Halo Infinite drop Xbox One and go Scarlet exclusive?

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Should it?

Yes, dump Xbone, next gen exclusive 22 34.38%
 
No, keep it cross gen with Xbone 42 65.63%
 
Total:64
Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Yes they do and rightly so. Because just increasing the pixel count is the easiest way they can use the power. But you fixed it at 1080p so that power will be used on assets and effects. And those will be cut for X1, that would make a much bigger impact than they making the X1X 4k30fps, which probably would just need cut on resolution to 1080p and some touch ups.

Well more games could better utilize the X1's specs just by raising graphics settings closer to highest PC settings instead of resolutions. That doesent require better assets per se.

I look at BFV as an example because its crisp via dynamic 4K but has jarring pop in. Many games dont even increase texture quality on X1X even though the assets already exist for PC.

Games offering a 60 fps mode is a good use of the GPU boost. In some games the X1X gets a resolution boost, increased graphics settings, better textures and better frame rate. That was a motivator to buy a X1X.

3rd parties have a tendency of going the path of least cost and also keep both versios similar/parity. So they take the easiest way that is pixel bump. Anyway Halo Infinity will release on base X1 and we will take another 3-5 years before knowing what Halo would look/play if exclusive to 9th gen.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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It would be interesting to see what a game would look like built from the ground up for the Xbox One X without having to run on the base model, but unfortunately we'll never know.



Mr Puggsly said:

Compromises to the storage medium and memory could impact game development for the high end model. GPU is less significant because that's mostly visual tweaks. Again, its a lot of compromise to make a lower budget Scarlett.

There are effects which are more memory bandwidth hungry than others, like Alpha effects. - Less bandwidth means less fillrate, so chances are you just scale back the resolution. It wouldn't be much different than the situation that we see with the base Xbox One and Xbox One X.

Yes there will be compromises with a lower-budget Scarlett. - That's kind of the entire point for a lower-cost device you know?

Mr Puggsly said:

I think you're suggesting Halo 3 has a frame pacing thats unlike other games with obvious frame pacing issues. I'm gonna move on...

Plenty of other games on Xbox 360 have frame pacing issues, you are correct. But that doesn't excuse Halo 3 from criticism where criticism is due.

Mr Puggsly said:

If Rockstar had better specs for GTAV's launch, then they would have just created a more ambitious game, atleast visually. They seemingly have more resources and talent than virtually any other studio.

They did create a more ambitious game, visually. The Xbox One, Playstation 4 and PC versions.

Mr Puggsly said:

Good, then don't complain if I call you out on being immature.

No you can't. You can stick to the rules of the forum and use common courtesy like everyone else.

curl-6 said:

It would be interesting to see what a game would look like built from the ground up for the Xbox One X without having to run on the base model, but unfortunately we'll never know.

Indeed. Same goes for the Playstation 4 Pro.

Still, there are some benefits to be had choosing these mid-gen consoles even at 1080P... The base Xbox One has the majority of it's library at 1080P or less... And more and more Playstation 4 games are sub-1080P as well these days... So there is value in the mid-gen devices even if you are running with only a 27" 1080P display.



DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well more games could better utilize the X1's specs just by raising graphics settings closer to highest PC settings instead of resolutions. That doesent require better assets per se.

I look at BFV as an example because its crisp via dynamic 4K but has jarring pop in. Many games dont even increase texture quality on X1X even though the assets already exist for PC.

Games offering a 60 fps mode is a good use of the GPU boost. In some games the X1X gets a resolution boost, increased graphics settings, better textures and better frame rate. That was a motivator to buy a X1X.

3rd parties have a tendency of going the path of least cost and also keep both versios similar/parity. So they take the easiest way that is pixel bump. Anyway Halo Infinity will release on base X1 and we will take another 3-5 years before knowing what Halo would look/play if exclusive to 9th gen.

Is including higher quality textures really significant work though? Might just be some parity BS.

I look forward to seeing a Halo built for Scarlett. But that will probably just be another Halo with even more advanced visuals.



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Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Compromises to the storage medium and memory could impact game development for the high end model. GPU is less significant because that's mostly visual tweaks. Again, its a lot of compromise to make a lower budget Scarlett.

There are effects which are more memory bandwidth hungry than others, like Alpha effects. - Less bandwidth means less fillrate, so chances are you just scale back the resolution. It wouldn't be much different than the situation that we see with the base Xbox One and Xbox One X.

Yes there will be compromises with a lower-budget Scarlett. - That's kind of the entire point for a lower-cost device you know?

Mr Puggsly said:

I think you're suggesting Halo 3 has a frame pacing thats unlike other games with obvious frame pacing issues. I'm gonna move on...

Plenty of other games on Xbox 360 have frame pacing issues, you are correct. But that doesn't excuse Halo 3 from criticism where criticism is due.

Mr Puggsly said:

If Rockstar had better specs for GTAV's launch, then they would have just created a more ambitious game, atleast visually. They seemingly have more resources and talent than virtually any other studio.

They did create a more ambitious game, visually. The Xbox One, Playstation 4 and PC versions.

Mr Puggsly said:

Good, then don't complain if I call you out on being immature.

No you can't. You can stick to the rules of the forum and use common courtesy like everyone else.

curl-6 said:

It would be interesting to see what a game would look like built from the ground up for the Xbox One X without having to run on the base model, but unfortunately we'll never know.

Indeed. Same goes for the Playstation 4 Pro.

Still, there are some benefits to be had choosing these mid-gen consoles even at 1080P... The base Xbox One has the majority of it's library at 1080P or less... And more and more Playstation 4 games are sub-1080P as well these days... So there is value in the mid-gen devices even if you are running with only a 27" 1080P display.

I'm saying the compromises made for a low end Scarlett could negatively effect game design. Especially if games can be optimized around SSD but have build for a standard HDD as well. I just get the impression a low budget option stopped making sense because model would have to strip too much.

I really dont feel Halo 3 has a frame pacing issue. Its generally detected on frame counters by constantly jumping above and below 30 fps. But I get your point, you dont feel its smooth. We will end on that.

GTAV on PS4 and X1 was not really built to take advantage of the new specs. I was playing the X1 version for the first time recently and was disappointed.

If you had courtesy you would have respected I withdrew a thought instead of stressing it in a condescending manner, "because I can." My criticism of you was fair and I dont care if it broke a rule.



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Had it planned to release this year then absolutely not since the new system wouldn't release until next year but by the sounds of it, the new entry in the franchise could coincide with the release of the new system by late next year so it doesn't make any sense to keep the X1 in the release schedule anymore since it'll be a very quickly depreciated platform after that ...



Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

3rd parties have a tendency of going the path of least cost and also keep both versios similar/parity. So they take the easiest way that is pixel bump. Anyway Halo Infinity will release on base X1 and we will take another 3-5 years before knowing what Halo would look/play if exclusive to 9th gen.

Is including higher quality textures really significant work though? Might just be some parity BS.

I look forward to seeing a Halo built for Scarlett. But that will probably just be another Halo with even more advanced visuals.

Could be parity, can't say and also I would agree texture itself wouldn't take much more work. But "4K" is the word of the moment so they will prefer to also have the marketing covered whenever possible. And without being a specialist I can at most image that perhaps the texture (that would need to be a change of all of them) needs some adjustment on other parts to keep it from hitting fps.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Mr Puggsly said:

I look forward to seeing a Halo built for Scarlett. But that will probably just be another Halo with even more advanced visuals.

Halo has always had a degree of artistic charm, backing that art with advanced visual effects would be a good thing... In saying that, some of the effects Infinite is pushing is pretty damn great as it is, done a ton of analysis on the trailers that have been presented so far.

It does have a few rough edges though, depth of field transitions irked me somewhat for example, but that's a small gripe for a game that hasn't even been released yet.

Mr Puggsly said:

I'm saying the compromises made for a low end Scarlett could negatively effect game design. Especially if games can be optimized around SSD but have build for a standard HDD as well. I just get the impression a low budget option stopped making sense because model would have to strip too much.

I do actually agree to a degree. I am just trying to quantify Microsoft's choices.
But it would be no more of a negative effect than supporting the Xbox One/Xbox One S/Xbox One X when Scarlett launches.

We don't know how the SSD is going to be implemented yet either... I would assume external mechanical storage will continue to be a necessity next-gen, so games will likely continue to be built with that in mind.
The SSD will bolster streaming, but other than that no real optimization needs to be done.

Mr Puggsly said:

I really dont feel Halo 3 has a frame pacing issue. Its generally detected on frame counters by constantly jumping above and below 30 fps. But I get your point, you dont feel its smooth. We will end on that.

The evidence has already been presented for Halo 3 having frame pacing issues. - Unless you are suggesting that digital foundry is lieing?

Frame pacing issues can occur even when you have a locked, solid, frame rate.

For example back when I was running with quad Radeon 7970's, AMD was notorious for it's crossfire frame-pacing issues.
I could have a locked 60fps, 1440P, but the game felt terrible to handle. - Why? Frame pacing.

Let me break it down. (Although if you are willing to ignore evidence, you will likely ignore this as well.)

You have 30 frame per second, locked. - That means a frame gets rendered every 33.3ms.

So in the span of a second you have 30 frames each with their specific render times:
Frame 1: 33.3ms
Frame 2: 33.3ms
Frame 3: 33.3ms
Frame 4: 33.3ms
Frame 5: 20.3ms
Frame 6: 43.3ms
Frame 7: 33.3ms
Frame 8: 33.3ms
Frame 9: 33.3ms
Frame 10: 33.3ms
Frame 11: 33.3ms
Frame 12: 33.3ms
Frame 13: 23.3ms
Frame 14: 13.3ms
Frame 15: 43.3ms
Frame 16: 43.3ms
Frame 17: 43.3ms
Frame 18: 33.3ms
Frame 19: 33.3ms
Frame 20: 33.3ms
Frame 21: 33.3ms
Frame 22: 33.3ms
Frame 23: 33.3ms
Frame 24: 33.3ms
Frame 25: 33.3ms
Frame 26: 33.3ms
Frame 27: 33.3ms
Frame 28: 33.3ms
Frame 29: 33.3ms
Frame 30: 33.3ms

That is still 30 frames per second, but some frames get drawn sooner, some others later in that allotted recorded second, aka. Frame pacing.
Anandtech has also broken it down fairly well here which might educate you a bit better on the topic than what I have done, although it pertains to crossfire specifically, the same issue can occur outside of that.



https://www.anandtech.com/show/7195/amd-frame-pacing-explorer-cat138

Mr Puggsly said:

GTAV on PS4 and X1 was not really built to take advantage of the new specs. I was playing the X1 version for the first time recently and was disappointed.

Well. It was an early 8th gen multiplatform title, so to be expected.
Many early 8th gen games look terrible now, especially on Xbox One with it's terrible hardware.



Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I'm saying the compromises made for a low end Scarlett could negatively effect game design. Especially if games can be optimized around SSD but have build for a standard HDD as well. I just get the impression a low budget option stopped making sense because model would have to strip too much.

I do actually agree to a degree. I am just trying to quantify Microsoft's choices.
But it would be no more of a negative effect than supporting the Xbox One/Xbox One S/Xbox One X when Scarlett launches.

We don't know how the SSD is going to be implemented yet either... I would assume external mechanical storage will continue to be a necessity next-gen, so games will likely continue to be built with that in mind.
The SSD will bolster streaming, but other than that no real optimization needs to be done.

Mr Puggsly said:

I really dont feel Halo 3 has a frame pacing issue. Its generally detected on frame counters by constantly jumping above and below 30 fps. But I get your point, you dont feel its smooth. We will end on that.

The evidence has already been presented for Halo 3 having frame pacing issues. - Unless you are suggesting that digital foundry is lieing?

Frame pacing issues can occur even when you have a locked, solid, frame rate.

For example back when I was running with quad Radeon 7970's, AMD was notorious for it's crossfire frame-pacing issues.
I could have a locked 60fps, 1440P, but the game felt terrible to handle. - Why? Frame pacing.

Let me break it down. (Although if you are willing to ignore evidence, you will likely ignore this as well.)

You have 30 frame per second, locked. - That means a frame gets rendered every 33.3ms.

So in the span of a second you have 30 frames each with their specific render times:
Frame 1: 33.3ms
Frame 2: 33.3ms
Frame 3: 33.3ms
Frame 4: 33.3ms
Frame 5: 20.3ms
Frame 6: 43.3ms
Frame 7: 33.3ms
Frame 8: 33.3ms
Frame 9: 33.3ms
Frame 10: 33.3ms
Frame 11: 33.3ms
Frame 12: 33.3ms
Frame 13: 23.3ms
Frame 14: 13.3ms
Frame 15: 43.3ms
Frame 16: 43.3ms
Frame 17: 43.3ms
Frame 18: 33.3ms
Frame 19: 33.3ms
Frame 20: 33.3ms
Frame 21: 33.3ms
Frame 22: 33.3ms
Frame 23: 33.3ms
Frame 24: 33.3ms
Frame 25: 33.3ms
Frame 26: 33.3ms
Frame 27: 33.3ms
Frame 28: 33.3ms
Frame 29: 33.3ms
Frame 30: 33.3ms

That is still 30 frames per second, but some frames get drawn sooner, some others later in that allotted recorded second, aka. Frame pacing.
Anandtech has also broken it down fairly well here which might educate you a bit better on the topic than what I have done, although it pertains to crossfire specifically, the same issue can occur outside of that.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/7195/amd-frame-pacing-explorer-cat138

Mr Puggsly said:

GTAV on PS4 and X1 was not really built to take advantage of the new specs. I was playing the X1 version for the first time recently and was disappointed.

Well. It was an early 8th gen multiplatform title, so to be expected.
Many early 8th gen games look terrible now, especially on Xbox One with it's terrible hardware.

Supporting X1/X1X is very different than a low end/stripped down Scarlett. If a low end Scarlett were to exist, that may become a baseline for developers. If there is only one Scarlett, the high end model, that becomes the lead hardware for Scarlett development.

While X1/X1X ports doesn't necessarily need to affect games that use Scarlett as the lead. Developers would simply have to strip those games down into functional products for 8th gen specs. But this is assuming MS will keep bringing AAA games to X1 after Scarlett launches.

Alright, you're saying Halo 3 has frame pacing issues that evidently isn't reflected in frame counters. Okay, that's fine. Perhaps the frame pacing issues that really bothers people is what you see in Halo Anniversary on 360.

I think we can blame the lack of polish in GTAV being from early hardware optimization.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Supporting X1/X1X is very different than a low end/stripped down Scarlett. If a low end Scarlett were to exist, that may become a baseline for developers. If there is only one Scarlett, the high end model, that becomes the lead hardware for Scarlett development.

While X1/X1X ports doesn't necessarily need to affect games that use Scarlett as the lead. Developers would simply have to strip those games down into functional products for 8th gen specs. But this is assuming MS will keep bringing AAA games to X1 after Scarlett launches.

The transition to the 9th gen is going to take years... Just like the transition from 7th to 8th gen... Many games just looked like enhanced 7th gen titles early on.
So for years, the base Xbox One will be the baseline for developers on Scarlett.

A lower-end Scarlett would still be a step up and won't be the baseline until that transition was entirely completed.

Now to state that developers will build games for Scarlett as a lead platform and strip them down for the Xbox One/Xbox One S/Xbox One X, but not a lower-end Scarlett is a pretty bold claim, one that I can't adhere to.

Will be interesting to see how Microsoft supports the 8th gen devices once Scarlett is on the Market, I am hoping for a quick cut-off.

Mr Puggsly said:

Alright, you're saying Halo 3 has frame pacing issues that evidently isn't reflected in frame counters. Okay, that's fine. Perhaps the frame pacing issues that really bothers people is what you see in Halo Anniversary on 360.

I think we can blame the lack of polish in GTAV being from early hardware optimization.

Correct, because the frame time variances happens far to quickly for frame counters to typically log.

Frame pacing issues also occurs in Halo: Anniversary on 360. - I think it just feels more pronounced on Halo 3 and Halo 3 ODST because of the way the buffering systems are set up. (Which were a necessity for some rendering aspects.)

Back during Halo 3's heyday, I didn't really care though, it was a fantastic title that I sunk hundreds of hours into and had a blast in it's multiplayer... And it was a visual showpiece for the platform with it's HDR lighting, tessellated water effects, long (for the time) draw distances and so on... But going back to it doesn't feel great, it's a better experience on Halo: The Master Chief Collection with it's 60fps lock.

That is a testament to the MCC collection as a package though and why any Halo fan should pick a copy up over the original releases... Unless you are a purest.