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Goodby Teraflop (PS5 and Xbox Scarlet probably will not contest on Teraflop number anymore) expect 8 to 9 teraflop for PS5 and Scarlet

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Goodby Teraflop (PS5 and Xbox Scarlet probably will not contest on Teraflop number anymore) expect 8 to 9 teraflop for PS5 and Scarlet

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What do you think with these teraflop number

Yes 1 2.94%
 
No 0 0.00%
 
i don't care teraflop , i... 19 55.88%
 
I am expecting more 6 17.65%
 
These within my expecation 4 11.76%
 
I am impressed we get mor... 2 5.88%
 
I still believe even with... 2 5.88%
 
Total:34
curl-6 said:
HollyGamer said:

Native 4k 60fps is more than possible on PS5 and Xbox Scarlet, even with 6 teraflop GCN Xbox One X already achieve native native 4k on heavy title like Red Dead Redemption 2. 8k is another thing, it's 4 times of 4k and probably it's only supported for just indies and simple games (like mobile phones graphic games) or probably just for video files . 120 fps games also possible on PS5 and Xbox Scarlet,  just make the games run at 1080p and it will be easily run the games at 120fps. 

I never said 4K/60fps won't be possible, but most AAA games will not run at that spec. It's not as simple as just making it 1080p, you'd also have to slice CPU processing time to 1/4 of a 30fps game, so only simplistic games will be able to be 120fps.

Read Dead Redemption 2 an open world games that look like The last of Us or even far better,  is a triple A games run at 4k 30 fps on Xbox One X. I bet triple A games will not just run at 4k but will able run games at 60fps on PS5/Scarlet easily.  It depend on how the graphic fidelity and the visual quality of the games.

RTX 2070  mostly run games at 1440p 60fps at ultra setting. PS5 and Scarlet will have equal or better than RTX 2070 and have low level API and far better optimization . It will safe to say 4k 60 with current graphic fidelity on PC in ultra setting is possible for PS5 or Scarlet.

Also if you games with high refresh rate monitor (up to 144 hz) using RTX 2070 , RTX will able to run games like Overwatch in 1080p at 144hz . PS5 and Scarlet also will be using ryzen 2 CPU, so no more bottle neck by Jaguar CPU.

PS5 and Scarlet will be on par or slightly more powerful than RTX 2070. keep in mind RTX 2070 will be a mainstream cheap GPU on 2020 , so 4k 60 or 1080p 120 fps will be the norm for console gamer or budget PC gamer.  



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HollyGamer said:
curl-6 said:

I never said 4K/60fps won't be possible, but most AAA games will not run at that spec. It's not as simple as just making it 1080p, you'd also have to slice CPU processing time to 1/4 of a 30fps game, so only simplistic games will be able to be 120fps.

Read Dead Redemption 2 an open world games that look like The last of Us or even far better,  is a triple A games run at 4k 30 fps on Xbox One X. I bet triple A games will not just run at 4k but will able run games at 60fps on PS5/Scarlet easily.  It depend on how the graphic fidelity and the visual quality of the games.

RTX 2070  mostly run games at 1440p 60fps at ultra setting. PS5 and Scarlet will have equal or better than RTX 2070 and have low level API and far better optimization . It will safe to say 4k 60 with current graphic fidelity on PC in ultra setting is possible for PS5 or Scarlet.

Also if you games with high refresh rate monitor (up to 144 hz) using RTX 2070 , RTX will able to run games like Overwatch in 1080p at 144hz . PS5 and Scarlet also will be using ryzen 2 CPU, so no more bottle neck by Jaguar CPU.

PS5 and Scarlet will be on par or slightly more powerful than RTX 2070. keep in mind RTX 2070 will be a mainstream cheap GPU on 2020 , so 4k 60 or 1080p 120 fps will be the norm for console gamer or budget PC gamer.  

Framerate on consoles is down to developer choice, and developers for the last 20 years have always predominantly chosen to opt for 30fps over 60fps, no matter how much extra power they are given. The same will happen for PS5/Scarlet. Ever since the lead-up to the 6th gen, people have always talked wishfully about how "next gen will be 60fps standard", we go through this every time there's a generational shift, and the outcome is always the same. Anyone expecting 60fps to be the standard in AAA games for PS4/Scarlet is only setting themselves up for disappointment.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 04 July 2019

curl-6 said:
HollyGamer said:

Read Dead Redemption 2 an open world games that look like The last of Us or even far better,  is a triple A games run at 4k 30 fps on Xbox One X. I bet triple A games will not just run at 4k but will able run games at 60fps on PS5/Scarlet easily.  It depend on how the graphic fidelity and the visual quality of the games.

RTX 2070  mostly run games at 1440p 60fps at ultra setting. PS5 and Scarlet will have equal or better than RTX 2070 and have low level API and far better optimization . It will safe to say 4k 60 with current graphic fidelity on PC in ultra setting is possible for PS5 or Scarlet.

Also if you games with high refresh rate monitor (up to 144 hz) using RTX 2070 , RTX will able to run games like Overwatch in 1080p at 144hz . PS5 and Scarlet also will be using ryzen 2 CPU, so no more bottle neck by Jaguar CPU.

PS5 and Scarlet will be on par or slightly more powerful than RTX 2070. keep in mind RTX 2070 will be a mainstream cheap GPU on 2020 , so 4k 60 or 1080p 120 fps will be the norm for console gamer or budget PC gamer.  

Framerate on consoles is down to developer choice, and developers for the last 20 years have always predominantly chosen to opt for 30fps over 60fps, no matter how much extra power they are given. The same will happen for PS5/Scarlet. Ever since the lead-up to the 6th gen, people have always talked wishfully about how "next gen will be 60fps standard", we go through this every time there's a generational shift, and the outcome is always the same. Anyone expecting 60fps to be the standard in AAA games for PS4/Scarlet is only setting themselves up for disappointment.

I am agree , it's up to developer. But recently PS4 pro and Xbox Scarlet able to put option to choose setting between resolution, graphic quality or frame rates (60fps) . I bet we will see same ability on PS5 or scarlet , of course it will be limited compare to PC but at least gamer have some option. Also Sony and Microsoft already hint that both console can run games at 120 fps using HDMI 2.1 which is a requirement for 4K TV to run at 120 fps ( i am not saying games at 4k will run at 120 fps). 

Console has becoming more like PC these recent years.  Xbox One X for example able to use Freesync capability when using HDMI 2.1 on some monitor or TV with Freesync capability. These feature were exclusives only for PC gamers back then ,now console gamer can enjoy it on normal TV (using HDMI 2.1). 



HollyGamer said:
curl-6 said:

Framerate on consoles is down to developer choice, and developers for the last 20 years have always predominantly chosen to opt for 30fps over 60fps, no matter how much extra power they are given. The same will happen for PS5/Scarlet. Ever since the lead-up to the 6th gen, people have always talked wishfully about how "next gen will be 60fps standard", we go through this every time there's a generational shift, and the outcome is always the same. Anyone expecting 60fps to be the standard in AAA games for PS4/Scarlet is only setting themselves up for disappointment.

I am agree , it's up to developer. But recently PS4 pro and Xbox Scarlet able to put option to choose setting between resolution, graphic quality or frame rates (60fps) . I bet we will see same ability on PS5 or scarlet , of course it will be limited compare to PC but at least gamer have some option. Also Sony and Microsoft already hint that both console can run games at 120 fps using HDMI 2.1 which is a requirement for 4K TV to run at 120 fps ( i am not saying games at 4k will run at 120 fps). 

Console has becoming more like PC these recent years.  Xbox One X for example able to use Freesync capability when using HDMI 2.1 on some monitor or TV with Freesync capability. These feature were exclusives only for PC gamers back then ,now console gamer can enjoy it on normal TV (using HDMI 2.1). 

Don't get me wrong, it'd be awesome if it became standard for devs to give players detail vs perfomance modes, as some games already have. I'm just not expecting it.



Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

https://www.techtimes.com/articles/186804/20161128/could-the-playstation-5-have-an-impressive-8-teraflop-gpu-for-true-4k-gaming.htm

Cerny mentioned around the launch of Pro in 2016 that he felt at least 8TF would be needed for guaranteed full native 4k. Can't help but wonder if he was privy to info about where Navi was likely to land in terms of TF calculation. It would also partially explain why Pro only hit 4.2TF. If your next gen console is 'only' going to hit 8TF-10TF, then why try and launch a monster of a console and make the next gen leap look much less impressive?

This would make it tougher for MS to market Project Scarlett since they will either have to really push the GPU performance and pay a hefty price for that, or possibly sacrifice CPU cores to keep the die size and cost down, or use two separate dies, still increasing costs. PS5 could be 8.4TF and it will seem like a much larger and more worthwhile leap in comparison to a 9TF-10TF Scarlett. Even if PS decided to shoot for 10TF and that happened to be where Scarlett landed as well, then it would still look better for PS than MS, due to the difference in performance gains on paper. PS will be able to use this to their advantage, where it would hurt MS, making their advancement seem weaker.

8 Teraflops isn't needed for guaranteed full native 4k.

It all depends on the level of fidelity you wish to chase, there is more to life than flops... Which is finally the message Microsoft and Sony are starting to put out there that is also finally starting to catch on with the gaming community. Yay. Finally.

Flops has always been irrelevant, it's a theoretical number, not a real world one.

Not sure you got the main point, that in terms of the future marketing of the PS5, pointing out that XB1X at 6TF wasn't going to be "true 4k" like MS was saying, and that the next PS console would be at least double the GPU performance of the Pro (on paper), and would basically be guaranteed full native 4k capable. Maybe that's what he was hinting, maybe not. That wouldn't mean all games would be 4k/60 or whatever, but that they all would be capable of running 4k/30 if a dev wanted to without having to downgrade the eye candy. Also would depend on what PS would require from devs who make games for PS5. Cerny may have had an idea about where Navi was planned to land in terms of it's capabilities, and would know approximately where PS5 was planned to land in terms of performance, so he would be able to say something like he did, knowing he wouldn't be all that far off, and worst case hopefully, it's actually 8TF and no lower his sake. I was looking at the statement in less of a tech perspective and more of an overall marketing perspective. If Cerny is going to be the lead architect but also one of the faces and voices of the company, he has to play the PR game too.

Trumpstyle said:

I just wanna point out that pastebin "leak" is fake which Hollygamer posted. It's just a copy & paste from what the reddit user ruthenicCookie said. He was the first to say Sony would have a small PS5 reveal mid 2019, he also was the first to say Sony wouldn't be at E3 this year. And he said a bunch of stuff about VR2 and PS5 being a monster and targeting $500 price point.

I think the teraflops number will be lower than what people are expecting. A 36CU clocked at 1,6ghz or lower is what we should expect, this is a 7,3 Teraflop gpu and will have a power consumption of 160W including GDDR6 memory. Xbox one X gpu had a power consumption of 150W so we shouldn't expect much more than this.

The gonzalo leak might be true as we now have 4 reports saying PS5 being more powerful than Xbox Scarlett and I expect both console to have 36CU's, gonzalo is likely a 36CU gpu clocked at 1,8ghz (8,3TF) its performance should land just slightly below radeon 5700xt, but I'm sceptical of this as this gpu will pull about 200W that is gpu alone. But Sony might go with crazy clock speed who knows.

Link to RuthenicCookie comments (he recently said in another post PS5 will cost between $500-600):

https://old.reddit.com/r/PS4/comments/9x2r4f/sony_is_not_going_to_appear_in_e3_next_year/?limit=500

PS3 started with a 380w PSU and the PS3SS had a 190w PSU.

PS4 started with a 250w PSU and the PS4S now has a 165w PSU.

PRO started with a 310w PSU and now must have a max 250w PSU.

PS5 being x86 again, even with Ryzen and RDNA efficiency gains, it wouldn't be crazy to see it hit around 300w if it's going to be at least another 2.3X leap like Pro was over PS4.



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Trumpstyle said:

I just wanna point out that pastebin "leak" is fake which Hollygamer posted. It's just a copy & paste from what the reddit user ruthenicCookie said. He was the first to say Sony would have a small PS5 reveal mid 2019, he also was the first to say Sony wouldn't be at E3 this year. And he said a bunch of stuff about VR2 and PS5 being a monster and targeting $500 price point.

I think the teraflops number will be lower than what people are expecting. A 36CU clocked at 1,6ghz or lower is what we should expect, this is a 7,3 Teraflop gpu and will have a power consumption of 160W including GDDR6 memory. Xbox one X gpu had a power consumption of 150W so we shouldn't expect much more than this.

The gonzalo leak might be true as we now have 4 reports saying PS5 being more powerful than Xbox Scarlett and I expect both console to have 36CU's, gonzalo is likely a 36CU gpu clocked at 1,8ghz (8,3TF) its performance should land just slightly below radeon 5700xt, but I'm sceptical of this as this gpu will pull about 200W that is gpu alone. But Sony might go with crazy clock speed who knows.

Link to RuthenicCookie comments (he recently said in another post PS5 will cost between $500-600):

https://old.reddit.com/r/PS4/comments/9x2r4f/sony_is_not_going_to_appear_in_e3_next_year/?limit=500

Actually what  ruthenic Cookie said was almost right. 

1. Small reveal before E3 = Cerny interview with Wired on revealing PS5 and some detail officially

2.PSVR2 = PSVR2 was really in development , and PSVR engineer said it will not come at 2020 , also Sony has a patent for wireless VR head set, VRF and new controller 

3.PS5 being a monster = Yes it's a monster , PS5 test chip Gonzalo on its very early stage able to reach 2070 RTX capability and performance  on benchmark , if PS5 Gonzalo APU is strong as RTX 2070 using high level API directX,   it mean it will be double it's performance when it was optimize on low level API.

4. PS5 are using Navi, and the result might be 7 to 8. But if we converge this number to GCN , PS5 performance of 7 teraflop already on par with 13 teraflop of Vega 64.

5.PS5 GPU speed will easily achieve 1800 MHz, because it was leaked by an expert and analyze by Digital foundry that gonzalo able to achieve 1800 mhz . Also you need to remember PS5 and Scarlet will release next year, means the chip will be mature, more efficient, better yield , and will require less power, more thermal heat capability than 5700 or 5700Xt that will be releasing this year. And also it's an APU design so it will be much more simpler and smaller. 



HollyGamer said:

Flops is not important,  but can be a measurement for a certain degree, who wouldn't want a 10 teraflop Navi GPU inside console?  Even Xbox One X is 6 teraflop and 2 teraflop more than PS4 Pro and have an advantage over PS4 Pro in real world performance. 

Nope. It can't be used as a measurement because it's a theoretical number and not a real-world performance number.

The amount of Flops also doesn't tell us the capabilities of the rest of the chip only the single precision floating point, so things like geometry performance, fillrate, integer, half precision, quarter precision, double precision, bandwidth and so on... Which are also vital aspects of a GPU don't even get mentioned.

HollyGamer said:

7nm+ is feasible on 2020 , remember PS4 Pro ? They release  PS4 Pro at the same time frame with the release of RX 480 where the fabrication of 14nm just hit the market . Sony if they wanted they can just release this year PS5 with RX 5700 or RX 5700 Xt inside their console easily with 7nm. That's why there is still a big possibility if they delay the console to 2020 they are planning to use  7nm+ . 

You might be a little bit confused.
The Playstation 4 Pro doesn't use a 14nm fabrication process... Rather it is 16nm at TSMC. - Global Foundries 14nm was what the RX 480 used, based on Samsung technology, thus they aren't remotely comparable.
The Playstation 4 Pro dropped in November 2016... We had 16nm TSMC chips rolling out an entire year before that... And designs being taped out a year or two even before that. - We don't have any 7nm+ chips yet and designs have only just started to tape out.

Sony also can't "choose" to do anything when they want to, they are at the mercy of the fabs and AMD and how big their wallets are, Sony doesn't make monolithic chips anymore, it doesn't own leading-edge foundries, it needs to rely on everyone else to do that and thus they need to adhere to their production time frames just like everyone else.

HollyGamer said:

Based on the leak, Gonzalo already faster than 1080 , it means it's equal or slightly less to normal 2070 without RT. Next year Nvidia probably will release 3000 series GPU , so RTX 3060 probably going to end up as strong as RTX 2070. So PS5 will be comparable to RTX 3060 next year the budget line up and budget price like usual. 

If it's faster than the 1080, then it means it's likely slower than the 1080Ti or roughly in the same ballpark, which will be 4+ years old by the time next gen hardware launches.

That would be like hoping that the Radeon 7850-level GPU in the Playstation 4 was faster than the Radeon 4870, which it is... It's not actually that big of an achievement.

RTX 3060/Geforce 3060 levels of performance in 2020 won't be anything to write home about, but it is impressive when compared to hardware of today.. But like always, hardware improvements don't stop... It just puts things into perspective that consoles generally aim for mid-range cost-effective hardware... That's not a bad thing per-say.

HollyGamer said:

The bottom line i would expect PS5 will be just another PS4 like in 2013 by having mid/mainstream GPU power to compete next year, but with better CPU this time and SSD. But my dream and hope is PS5 could at least compete with mid to high GPU like RTX 3070 or RTX 2080 in raw power and dont care for the price and ready to pay 499 to 599 USD. 

No way is it going to be in the same league as the Geforce RTX 2080. - Geforce RTX 2070 is the best you could hope for.
Remember... Navi is only good for an extra 25% IPC improvement over GCN... The rest of the gains comes from a rebalancing of the hardware, bandwidth gains and clockspeed boosts relative to Polaris.

There is a massive divide between AMD and nVidia... And considering consoles need to be conservative with TDP's due to their limited cooling capacity and power delivery... We need to keep things in perspective and not overhype things.

HollyGamer said:

Ray tracing is not new thing but for gaming especially on console, it is still holy grail for mainstream gamer. But i doubt they will just selling console only for RT, that's why i am just saying that's just  for the example, they can still sell the "no loading time" or 4k and 8k or 120 fps. Hell even on Sony side their reputation as the best play games for exclusives is still unbeatable even if Scarlet ended up 3 times more powerful than PS5 LOL. They just need to say "we got better exclusives quality and quantity" that is more than enough.

Ray Tracing was always one of those technologies that was going to "creep" it's way in gradually over time... Games started dabbling in Ray Tracing even back in the 7th gen... And I wouldn't be surprised (I haven't looked it up specifically yet!) the 6th gen with some deferred renderers.

In saying that, we are only getting our tippy toes wet in regards to ray tracing.

HollyGamer said:

Hell even PS4 backward compatibility already ensure PS5 will sell as much PS4 if not more.

If backwards compatibility alone is what ensures that the successive console is to outsell the previous...

Then why didn't the 3DS outsell the DS?
Why didn't the Xbox One outsell the Xbox 360?
Why didn't the Playstation 3 outsell the Playstation 2?
Why didn't the WiiU outsell the Wii?

It's a bold assertion either way. I get that backwards compatibility is certainly a value-added incentive to retain some gamers, but from the statistics provided... Those who go back and play older games are actually very much a minority.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/06/backward-compatible-xbox-360-games-are-less-than-2-of-xbox-one-usage-time/

EricHiggin said:
Pemalite said:

8 Teraflops isn't needed for guaranteed full native 4k.

It all depends on the level of fidelity you wish to chase, there is more to life than flops... Which is finally the message Microsoft and Sony are starting to put out there that is also finally starting to catch on with the gaming community. Yay. Finally.

Flops has always been irrelevant, it's a theoretical number, not a real world one.

Not sure you got the main point, that in terms of the future marketing of the PS5, pointing out that XB1X at 6TF wasn't going to be "true 4k" like MS was saying, and that the next PS console would be at least double the GPU performance of the Pro (on paper), and would basically be guaranteed full native 4k capable. Maybe that's what he was hinting, maybe not. That wouldn't mean all games would be 4k/60 or whatever, but that they all would be capable of running 4k/30 if a dev wanted to without having to downgrade the eye candy. Also would depend on what PS would require from devs who make games for PS5. Cerny may have had an idea about where Navi was planned to land in terms of it's capabilities, and would know approximately where PS5 was planned to land in terms of performance, so he would be able to say something like he did, knowing he wouldn't be all that far off, and worst case hopefully, it's actually 8TF and no lower his sake. I was looking at the statement in less of a tech perspective and more of an overall marketing perspective. If Cerny is going to be the lead architect but also one of the faces and voices of the company, he has to play the PR game too.

And he does play the PR game. That was made abundantly clear when the Playstation 4 and Playstation 4 Pro dropped.
That doesn't mean his statements don't carry some credible tidbits of information... But his claims need to be weighed appropriately and within a non-hyped context.

The point I am trying to convey is that all the console manufacturers play these "games" in order to assert their platform as the best gaming platform, it's been going on for decades.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 04 July 2019

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Pemalite said:

Nope. It can't be used as a measurement because it's a theoretical number and not a real-world performance number.

The amount of Flops also doesn't tell us the capabilities of the rest of the chip only the single precision floating point, so things like geometry performance, fillrate, integer, half precision, quarter precision, double precision, bandwidth and so on... Which are also vital aspects of a GPU don't even get mentioned.

It can be a tool to compare capability measurement  on doing compte workload and comparison between similar architecture. Let say RTX 2080 and 2070.

You might be a little bit confused.
The Playstation 4 Pro doesn't use a 14nm fabrication process... Rather it is 16nm at TSMC. - Global Foundries 14nm was what the RX 480 used, based on Samsung technology, thus they aren't remotely comparable.
The Playstation 4 Pro dropped in November 2016... We had 16nm TSMC chips rolling out an entire year before that... And designs being taped out a year or two even before that. - We don't have any 7nm+ chips yet and designs have only just started to tape out.

Sony also can't "choose" to do anything when they want to, they are at the mercy of the fabs and AMD and how big their wallets are, Sony doesn't make monolithic chips anymore, it doesn't own leading-edge foundries, it needs to rely on everyone else to do that and thus they need to adhere to their production time frames just like everyone else.

The possibility of using 7nm+ is still there especially when Sony/Microsoft can let others fabrication manufacturer produce PS5/Scarlet chip because AMD are not producing chip they are just designing chip. Also the problem is not on Sony/ Microsoft money,  because they have the money.  They can either choose TSMC or Samsung differ from AMD own GPU lineup for PC, just like how PS4 pro using 16 nm fabrication while Polaris RX 480 using 14 nm. 

Also Samsung already made statement they can already produce 7nm+ for mass produce. Some smartphones already use it for their parts. So 7nm+ is still be in the realm of possibility

If it's faster than the 1080, then it means it's likely slower than the 1080Ti or roughly in the same ballpark, which will be 4+ years old by the time next gen hardware launches.

That would be like hoping that the Radeon 7850-level GPU in the Playstation 4 was faster than the Radeon 4870, which it is... It's not actually that big of an achievement.

RTX 3060/Geforce 3060 levels of performance in 2020 won't be anything to write home about, but it is impressive when compared to hardware of today.. But like always, hardware improvements don't stop... It just puts things into perspective that consoles generally aim for mid-range cost-effective hardware... That's not a bad thing per-say.

I know It slower than 1080 ti but Gonzalo benchmark slightly the same performance with RTX 2070 or RX 5700 xt, it's always be the  targeting spec for PS5/scarlet and it's enough for console. Even 1080 ti performance can be achieve by GTX 1080 using optimization if there is a game specified made for GTX 1080 . The problem is PC always need more raw power to run games because PC is struggling on optimization (most PC games demo and trailer using 1080 Ti to avoid bug and trouble). Also PS4 are using a slower modified 7870 ( less 2 CU and less GPU clock speed) and better than 7850. 

Console having mainstream is what people expect , no one will pay for expensive console and expensive GPU also because console is small, less power consumption and have less generated heat and sound  DB. Normal people just want to have small box that for gaming only. Also RTX 3060 and 3050 will be  the standard , developer will targeted games at that performance. As long it can run the games  then there is no problem having mid gen gpu inside console. Console is more of power to price ratio for "gaming only" 

No way is it going to be in the same league as the Geforce RTX 2080. - Geforce RTX 2070 is the best you could hope for.
Remember... Navi is only good for an extra 25% IPC improvement over GCN... The rest of the gains comes from a rebalancing of the hardware, bandwidth gains and clockspeed boosts relative to Polaris.

There is a massive divide between AMD and nVidia... And considering consoles need to be conservative with TDP's due to their limited cooling capacity and power delivery... We need to keep things in perspective and not overhype things.

Please read again, I said "The bottom Line " I am agree with u PS5 will just be comparable to RTX 3060/RTX 2070 or close enough. I am a realist but at the same time I also a dreamer. Everybody can have a dream right? Because we also don't know what is the final price of PS5/ Scarlet, if they want they can just increase the price to have better GPU and larger die size , even though it will sacrifice TDD/TBP , price and size. 

Ray Tracing was always one of those technologies that was going to "creep" it's way in gradually over time... Games started dabbling in Ray Tracing even back in the 7th gen... And I wouldn't be surprised (I haven't looked it up specifically yet!) the 6th gen with some deferred renderers.

In saying that, we are only getting our tippy toes wet in regards to ray tracing.

Ray tracing is the holy grail of every 3D games developer, it's very expensive technique that require expensive hardware, that's why it could be a selling point at least for gamers. I know it will creeple performance especially for console , but developer can just use it as marketing tool and hyping the console. Probably even on PS5/Scarlet  we will not see many games using RT , probably some first party ip or low RT on some triple A games. It will just be a combination of Rt and  Resteraser  

If backwards compatibility alone is what ensures that the successive console is to outsell the previous...

Then why didn't the 3DS outsell the DS?
Why didn't the Xbox One outsell the Xbox 360?
Why didn't the Playstation 3 outsell the Playstation 2?
Why didn't the WiiU outsell the Wii?

I am not saying backward compatibility " alone can achieve that"  but  it's enough to sell PS5 , because there are so many factor that make all the console you mentioned are failed on the market at least not achieving their target,  even though they have backward compatibility. PS brand and names after PS4 success in the other hand already has names, credibility, backward compatibility and brand bigger than Xbox even in US alone (not even counting across the globe). If PS5 are not repeating the same problem like PS3 did (expensive but no power advantage over it's competitor that can be seen on normal people , late to the market, bad controler ) than PS5 will sell like hot cakes to every PS4 owner. 

It's a bold assertion either way. I get that backwards compatibility is certainly a value-added incentive to retain some gamers, but from the statistics provided... Those who go back and play older games are actually very much a minority.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/06/backward-compatible-xbox-360-games-are-less-than-2-of-xbox-one-usage-time/

Indeed it's minority but on first year or early year, all PS4 owner will go and adopt easily PS5 because they have a lot of backlog and games that can be replay with enhanced option on PS5. PS3 /Xbox 360 transition on it's early year are different because PS4 and early Xbox One hardware were not able to run old games. If Xbox One has these feature on it's early day, then it would be a different stories



All this extra power will be wasted on raytracing, which won't ever deliver photorealistic graphics, unlike path tracing. Don't want no shiny bricks or cartoonish, sterile environments...

And so we will have to wait another 10 years for discernible upgrade to graphics quality.



ManUtdFan said:
All this extra power will be wasted on raytracing, which won't ever deliver photorealistic graphics, unlike path tracing. Don't want no shiny bricks or cartoonish, sterile environments...

And so we will have to wait another 10 years for discernible upgrade to graphics quality.

Lol no, I'll be surprised if many games even bother, but for those that do even ignoring the Ray Tracing you'll have substantial upgrades in other areas. The main thing the extra powers going to be wasted on is 4k. Would much rather have 60fps standard than pushing for 4k resolutions.



Predictions (Made July 2019)

LTD: PS4 - 130m, Switch - 110m, XBO - 52m       2019 : PS4 - 15m, Switch - 18.8m, XBO - 4.8m        2020: Switch - 22m (Peak Year)