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What was the Greatest Launch Title of all Time?

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What was the greatest launch title of all time?

Combat 0 0.00%
 
Super Mario Bros. 20 12.20%
 
Super Mario World 19 11.59%
 
Virtua Fighter (Saturn) 2 1.22%
 
Twisted Metal 2 1.22%
 
Super Mario 64 32 19.51%
 
Halo Combat Evolved 16 9.76%
 
Twilight Princess 3 1.83%
 
Breath of the Wild 64 39.02%
 
Other 6 3.66%
 
Total:164
HoloDust said:
Wyrdness said:

I know Morrowind just fine I touched upon earlier in players having locked in approaches to their choices of freedom in other games this is what BOTW does away with, Morrowind is a step above the likes of Mass Effect and such in this regard but still takes the same sort of route.

Well, different strokes I guess - for me BotW, apart from certain aspects (that are still very case by case) is actually very limiting and constrictive game.

Where can I get some of whatever you're smoking?

PM Sent - cycycychris

Last edited by cycycychris - on 07 July 2019

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Chrkeller said:
I can't see claiming BotW was restrictive. The game pretty much let the player determine how to play the game. You speak of Gerudo Valley.... completely optional, the player doesn't even have to go there. I haven't played Morrowind, but I have played Oblivion and Skyrim. Both have linear stories. Meaning the story has to be played sequentially. BotW the story can be played in any order and any aspect can be skipped. I can do all 4 dungeons, no dungeons, or anything in between. I can also do the dungeons in any order that I choose.

Bethesda peaked creatively with Morrowind and then turned on full mainstream mode after that (which produces dumbed down versions of TES) - you can do whatever you like in Morrowind, kill everyone and still finish the game.

I know some people love their BotW for its "freedoms", but hopefully and eventually Nintendo will make a game that actually has said freedoms to full extent and maybe then those people will realize how much BotW is lacking.

psychicscubadiver said:
HoloDust said:

Well, different strokes I guess - for me BotW, apart from certain aspects (that are still very case by case) is actually very limiting and constrictive game.

Where can I get some of whatever you're smoking?

Sure...you just need to lay off BotW cool-aid and widen your gaming horizons (especially with older games that didn't catter to mass market) and it will come to you very quickly.



HoloDust said:

I'm afraid I can't really agree - BotW is quite restrictive game that has few mechanisms that indeed make some of its gameplay free-form to a degree, yet that's where all the freedom ends...on mostly non-important stuff, at least from my POV.

For example, try getting into Gerrudo town on any other way than only one predetermined by game. Nope.
Meanwhile in Morrowind...want to make some custom spell that inflicts damage to strength on half a town? Sure, craft it if you know how to. You don't even have to do the main quest and still finish the game...or make NPCs do it for you.

From my POV (which is admittedly RPG one): BotW has (limited) freedom in some, overall, less important things, that result in lot of flash, but are ultimately just a fluff. Morrowind has meaningful freedoms, because it was made still in days when Bethesda was making RPGs based on P&P principles (which are the ultimate freedom in gaming).

That's untrue mate as the many videos online show BOTW has many mechanisms that use it's freedom if you want examples look up players like CHC Yu who are finding tricks by the day and implementing them in play this isn't a case of POV it's a case of what the game actually does. Your Gerudo example is also flawed because you compare an optional situational in BOTW to a combat situation in Morrowind, Gerudo town is whether someone wants to play through the story elements or not and even then the player only needs one item set to enter it and then you're still free to do as you like Morrowind in in a similar comparison doesn't do anything that offers more freedom because as someone highlighted it utilizes the linear style progression.

Want combat examples in BOTW I'll highlight 3 of CHC's tricks that highlight the creativity of playing around with BOTW:

- Using the bomb and stasis you lock an enemy in place and detonate the bomb under them to store upward momentum on them this will launch them in midair as you release them from stasis, as they're released you shield hop on them which will give you height off the ground to enter slow motion to bombard them with arrows.

- Using Daruk's Protection during a shield hop gives you a hop action that allows slow motion activation when you want, using this you can use Ice Arrows to freeze two enemies with in a group of enemies then switch to Lightning Arrows and keep hitting one of the frozen enemies because ice is a water based element electric attacks disperse as a result and become aoe using the game's physics to your advantage.

- Another is an AOE parrying trick Link can parry his own explosive attacks so using either bomb arrows or normal bombs you can trigger a parry that interrupt enemy attacks dead in their tracks regardless of where they're attacking from, the same trick can be used to activate Link's quick rush instead allowing players to counter through attacks with out having to wait for the window of timing for a dodge.

This is how sandbox mechanics are approached as even if you chose not to use them as you've said in the other thread the level is freedom is there believe me Morrowind doesn't have the level of freedom in BOTW because in the latter not only are the mechanics utilized but anything in the situation from physics, objects, enemy behaviour/AI, weather, environment properties etc... Like I said Morrowind is a step above other games that take its route but your claim on BOTW being constrictive is simply not true the are tonnes of videos that already disprove.



HoloDust said:
Chrkeller said:
I can't see claiming BotW was restrictive. The game pretty much let the player determine how to play the game. You speak of Gerudo Valley.... completely optional, the player doesn't even have to go there. I haven't played Morrowind, but I have played Oblivion and Skyrim. Both have linear stories. Meaning the story has to be played sequentially. BotW the story can be played in any order and any aspect can be skipped. I can do all 4 dungeons, no dungeons, or anything in between. I can also do the dungeons in any order that I choose.

Bethesda peaked creatively with Morrowind and then turned on full mainstream mode after that (which produces dumbed down versions of TES) - you can do whatever you like in Morrowind, kill everyone and still finish the game.

I know some people love their BotW for its "freedoms", but hopefully and eventually Nintendo will make a game that actually has said freedoms to full extent and maybe then those people will realize how much BotW is lacking.

psychicscubadiver said:

Where can I get some of whatever you're smoking?

Sure...you just need to lay off BotW cool-aid and widen your gaming horizons (especially with older games that didn't catter to mass market) and it will come to you very quickly.

Lol, been gaming for over twenty years and played plenty of niche titles. Played Morrowwind when it was new and it doesn't hold a candle to BotW.



Super Mario 64



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Wyrdness said:
HoloDust said:

I'm afraid I can't really agree - BotW is quite restrictive game that has few mechanisms that indeed make some of its gameplay free-form to a degree, yet that's where all the freedom ends...on mostly non-important stuff, at least from my POV.

For example, try getting into Gerrudo town on any other way than only one predetermined by game. Nope.
Meanwhile in Morrowind...want to make some custom spell that inflicts damage to strength on half a town? Sure, craft it if you know how to. You don't even have to do the main quest and still finish the game...or make NPCs do it for you.

From my POV (which is admittedly RPG one): BotW has (limited) freedom in some, overall, less important things, that result in lot of flash, but are ultimately just a fluff. Morrowind has meaningful freedoms, because it was made still in days when Bethesda was making RPGs based on P&P principles (which are the ultimate freedom in gaming).

That's untrue mate as the many videos online show BOTW has many mechanisms that use it's freedom if you want examples look up players like CHC Yu who are finding tricks by the day and implementing them in play this isn't a case of POV it's a case of what the game actually does. Your Gerudo example is also flawed because you compare an optional situational in BOTW to a combat situation in Morrowind, Gerudo town is whether someone wants to play through the story elements or not and even then the player only needs one item set to enter it and then you're still free to do as you like Morrowind in in a similar comparison doesn't do anything that offers more freedom because as someone highlighted it utilizes the linear style progression.

Want combat examples in BOTW I'll highlight 3 of CHC's tricks that highlight the creativity of playing around with BOTW:

- Using the bomb and stasis you lock an enemy in place and detonate the bomb under them to store upward momentum on them this will launch them in midair as you release them from stasis, as they're released you shield hop on them which will give you height off the ground to enter slow motion to bombard them with arrows.

- Using Daruk's Protection during a shield hop gives you a hop action that allows slow motion activation when you want, using this you can use Ice Arrows to freeze two enemies with in a group of enemies then switch to Lightning Arrows and keep hitting one of the frozen enemies because ice is a water based element electric attacks disperse as a result and become aoe using the game's physics to your advantage.

- Another is an AOE parrying trick Link can parry his own explosive attacks so using either bomb arrows or normal bombs you can trigger a parry that interrupt enemy attacks dead in their tracks regardless of where they're attacking from, the same trick can be used to activate Link's quick rush instead allowing players to counter through attacks with out having to wait for the window of timing for a dodge.

This is how sandbox mechanics are approached as even if you chose not to use them as you've said in the other thread the level is freedom is there believe me Morrowind doesn't have the level of freedom in BOTW because in the latter not only are the mechanics utilized but anything in the situation from physics, objects, enemy behaviour/AI, weather, environment properties etc... Like I said Morrowind is a step above other games that take its route but your claim on BOTW being constrictive is simply not true the are tonnes of videos that already disprove.

I'm hoping you don't expect list of things you can do in Morrowind that you can't do in BotW - because that list would be a) rather long, b) pointless.

Morrowind has different kind of freedoms, that BotW does not have, some of them are "all style/no substance" like BotW, some meaningful (like skipping main quest all together and finishing game)

I'm glad that you and others were enjoying those freedoms in BotW - for me, as I said, they are just fluff, and not present where it actually mattered (as you said, I've talked extensively in Zelda thread abou it) - so ultimately, no, BotW just pales for me compared to game such as Morrowind were you have freeedom on so many different levels - which is to be expected since Morrowind is sandbox RPG, BotW is sandbox action-adventure, constricted by it's very genre.

psychicscubadiver said:
HoloDust said:

Bethesda peaked creatively with Morrowind and then turned on full mainstream mode after that (which produces dumbed down versions of TES) - you can do whatever you like in Morrowind, kill everyone and still finish the game.

I know some people love their BotW for its "freedoms", but hopefully and eventually Nintendo will make a game that actually has said freedoms to full extent and maybe then those people will realize how much BotW is lacking.

Sure...you just need to lay off BotW cool-aid and widen your gaming horizons (especially with older games that didn't catter to mass market) and it will come to you very quickly.

Lol, been gaming for over twenty years and played plenty of niche titles. Played Morrowwind when it was new and it doesn't hold a candle to BotW.

Well, LOL back at you, I've been gaming since early 80s - so maybe go back and play Ultima 6 or 7 or Stygian Abyss and find out where immersive sims come from.



HoloDust said:

I'm hoping you don't expect list of things you can do in Morrowind that you can't do in BotW - because that list would be a) rather long, b) pointless.

Morrowind has different kind of freedoms, that BotW does not have, some of them are "all style/no substance" like BotW, some meaningful (like skipping main quest all together and finishing game)

I'm glad that you and others were enjoying those freedoms in BotW - for me, as I said, they are just fluff, and not present where it actually mattered (as you said, I've talked extensively in Zelda thread abou it) - so ultimately, no, BotW just pales for me compared to game such as Morrowind were you have freeedom on so many different levels - which is to be expected since Morrowind is sandbox RPG, BotW is sandbox action-adventure, constricted by it's very genre.

You're free to do as you like but what you've posted is untrue and ultimately the is far more BOTW can do that Morrowind and other games can't and that's the point and one you couldn't debunk in the other thread we're not talking about for you in general we're talking objectively you admitted in the other thread you never intended to explore the freedoms BOTW offered I've actually explored the freedoms Morrowind offers and the irony it's the more constrictive game in its freedom if you prefer Morrowinds approach that's fair enough but BOTW allows far more freedoms to the player and yes they are present when it matters as well as shown in numerous videos.



Wyrdness said:
HoloDust said:

I'm hoping you don't expect list of things you can do in Morrowind that you can't do in BotW - because that list would be a) rather long, b) pointless.

Morrowind has different kind of freedoms, that BotW does not have, some of them are "all style/no substance" like BotW, some meaningful (like skipping main quest all together and finishing game)

I'm glad that you and others were enjoying those freedoms in BotW - for me, as I said, they are just fluff, and not present where it actually mattered (as you said, I've talked extensively in Zelda thread abou it) - so ultimately, no, BotW just pales for me compared to game such as Morrowind were you have freeedom on so many different levels - which is to be expected since Morrowind is sandbox RPG, BotW is sandbox action-adventure, constricted by it's very genre.

You're free to do as you like but what you've posted is untrue and ultimately the is far more BOTW can do that Morrowind and other games can't and that's the point and one you couldn't debunk in the other thread we're not talking about for you in general we're talking objectively you admitted in the other thread you never intended to explore the freedoms BOTW offered I've actually explored the freedoms Morrowind offers and the irony it's the more constrictive game in its freedom if you prefer Morrowinds approach that's fair enough but BOTW allows far more freedoms to the player and yes they are present when it matters as well as shown in numerous videos.

Well, I could claim the same thing - I have nothing to prove to you and as I told you, I have no intention of compliling a list of what Morrowind can do that BotW can't, there's plenty of threads and videos out there about what can be done in Morrowind, it's very old game after all, so if you're interested look it up.

If you're ultimately satisfied with BotW freedoms, well then good for you I guess, for me they are (mostly) of meaningless (Just Cause "fuck around") variety since they are not supported by more meaningful freedoms in game design, which Morrowind has - and given that you think Morrowind is linear and constrictive, I'm starting to wonder how much you've actually played it.

But since we'll never see eye to eye about this, there's really no point in going any further.

Ultimately, Morrowind was 8/10, BotW is 7/10 for me...so there so much actually to improve in both approaches to open worlds...which will not happen to full extent, and I keep repeating this in various threads, until we have fully physics based, yet persistant simulated worlds (which i can only see being done with someting like voxel octrees or something similar) and AI shipping with game trained to act as DM and able to improvise on the go.



I haven't played Morrowind or even watched a second of gameplay. Things were constantly being revealed in BotW that blew my mind, though. A few examples off the top of my head:

-I couldn't find a second orb to power some device so I just laid down some metal weapons and they actually conducted electricity

-I was fighting a giant creature in a thunder storm and had a weak weapon. I threw my weapon an the creature and he was struck by lightning

-trying to navigate a sphere through some maze, I totally bypassed the maze, put the sphere on a piece of metal, and levitated the metal to where I wanted the sphere to go.

BotW has its standard "A to B" route but it also gives you a great physics engine, some tools, and some abilities and tells you to have a blast. Basically, if you can think of it, it'll probably work. That's pretty awesome. I'm sure other games can do this but it felt pretty fresh to me when I approached Zelda.

I'll find some vids on Morrowind. I might just end up buying it! I like when games don't feel totally scripted. However, we are getting a little off track. It's turning into BotW vs Morrowind instead of "Greatest Launch Title of All Time".



Twitter: @d21lewis  --I'll add you if you add me!!

There is no valid arguments against BotW providing the most open and free gameplay of any game yet. There are only a handful of tasks that you can't freely do whenever you want, in whatever order you want. It's full of story, lore, and depth, but you're completely free to experience that story and that lore in the order you choose.

But I don't think that's anything new or groundbreaking. It's a concept that devs have been messing with for ages - it's just that BotW executed it better than anybody before.

But SM64 changed gaming forever. I don't think there's a single third-person 3D game that's existed since that wasn't affected by the concepts Nintendo introduced with SM64 - including BotW! And even though it was the first to do so many things it did, SM64 did them so well that it maintained enjoyable playability for decades to come.



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