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Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony is focusing on Hard-Core Gamers for PS5

thismeintiel on 02 July 2019
Pemalite said:
thismeintiel said:

Sure, MS can. Xbox, however, can not.  I think this is the reason we've been hearing lately that the PS5 is more powerful. MS is going to have a decent box, but they don't want to lose a bunch of money on HW, so I think they'll launch at break even, maybe a slight loss. Sony, on the other hand, is more willing to take larger losses up front, since gaming is a big division for them. Gaming for MS is a much smaller focus, and gaming HW even smaller, hence them taking a bigger leap into streaming and PC gaming, as of late.

I think the most likely outcome is that they will both launch at $499, but with Sony taking a larger loss, they will have the more capable HW.

Xbox can... Seems Microsoft has opened it's checkbook up and is gearing up for next-gen, hence the purchasing of all the studios recently and holding things back for next-gen.
But they still need to answer to shareholders, so they certainly do still have limits and restrictions.

Plus Microsoft tends to roll other aspects into it's "Gaming division" to make that division seem more lucrative anyway, helps that division is also partly buoyed by the PC too... So they can get away with more than people realize thanks to clever accounting.

Except that has very little with selling HW and more to do with getting new content for xCloud/GamerPass, and MS has said as much. Phil Spencer is even preparing for lower console sales with his "the business isn't how many consoles you sell" talk. MS is making it obvious that they are transitioning Xbox to be a service. I don't think they are going to be interested in losing that revenue to cover losses on greatly subsidizing expensive HW.



 

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Trumpstyle on 03 July 2019
shikamaru317 said:
jonathanalis said:
Oh no, 500$ PS5?

I'd say $500 PS5 was a given already based on what we know of the specs.

We have a Navi GPU and Ryzen 2 CPU in a single chipset. The 2 Navi Desktop GPU's are $380 and $450 at retail right now while the cheapest 8 core Ryzen 2 desktop CPU is going to be $330 at release. Even taking into account price drops over the next year before mass manufacturing of PS5 begins and the fact that the Sony gets a discount for buying in bulk, we're probably looking at $250-300 for the chipset alone. 

We'll most likely have at least 16 GB of GDDR6, possibly as much as 24 GB, though a middle ground of 20 GB is the safest bet I'd say. That's going to cost Sony at least $80. 

We have a top of the line m.2 SSD (Sony said it was one of the fastest SSD's on the market as I recall), probably 1 TB, that's going to cost Sony at least $70. 

We have the cooler, most likely a vapor chamber cooler if they don't want PS5 to sound like a jet engine like PS4 Pro, that'll cost them at least $40. 

We have the case of the system, that'll probably cost about $20.

We have the controller, PS4 controller costs $18 to build, I would assume PS5 will be about the same. 

And of course you have the cost of the packaging and labor. All in all, Sony will likely be selling at a loss even at $500. 

Yep I'm thinking very close to you:

Apu/Soc = $200
Memory = $75-100
1TB SSD = $50-75
Rest = $175
Total $500-550

But I'm expecting between 12-16GB of Video ram and for cooling a heatsink and a big Fan should still be more effective than vapor chamber.

Pemalite said:

shikamaru317 said:

We'll most likely have at least 16 GB of GDDR6, possibly as much as 24 GB, though a middle ground of 20 GB is the safest bet I'd say. That's going to cost Sony at least $80. 

From what I saw of Scarlett, it seems Microsoft will be using a mix of 2GB and 1GB chips, so we can assume 24GB is in for Scarlett... However, 8GB of that will only operate at half the bandwidth, so if Scarlett employs 14Gbps GDDR6 on a 256bit bus, then that last 8GB will be 224GB/s of bandwidth whilst the rest of the 16GB is 448GB/s.
It does mean we are probably looking at 8GB for the OS/Background duties.

Sony could be taking a similar approach. Or they may opt for only 16GB of GDDR6... Or 16GB GDDR6+8GB DDR4.

The memory front is probably the most interesting thing that can happen with the next gen hardware.... Heck. All the above may also be wrong, I am just going by the imagery I saw from E3 with the Scarlett reveal and building my hypothesis from that.

Mixing 1GB and 2GB Ram chips/modules was more complicated than I thought, can't Microsoft do something similiar Nvidia did to geforce 550 Ti? Quote from Anandtech:

"NVIDIA’s solution was to put 1GB on a 192-bit card anyhow... this is a 6 chip configuration, with NVIDIA using 4 1Gb chips and 2 2Gb chips... Our base assumption is that NVIDIA is using a memory interleaving mode similar to “flex” modes on desktop computers... As such NVIDIA would have the full 98.5GB/sec of memory bandwidth available across the first 768MB, while the last 256MB would be much more painful at 32.8GB/sec"

But with 12GB of Vram on a 256-bit bus with 9GB available for games and full memory speed. Remaining 3GB for OS but has lower memory bandwidth?

drkohler said:
Pemalite said:

Once you hit 1GB of used capacity on each chip, then you can only start filling up the 2GB chips...

And this is when you switch from clamshell mode to non-clamshell mode on the 2GByte chips on both channels, putting the 1GByte chips onto high impedance.

As you say, it is really very complicated implementing such shenanigans and I doubt they are going to implement this. 

I see either 16Gbyte on a 256bit bus or 24Gbyte on a 384bit bus, leaning towards the 16GByte solution which is obviously much cheaper. Also with the "superfast ssd" solution combined with improved memory compression technology leads me to think 16GByte will be enough memory for a console.

Microsoft showed us a CGI render film of scarlett, which did they did for Xbox one X and turned to be true. In the CGI render for Next-gen console we can see 8 chips ggdr6 modules/chips with mixture of both 1GB and 2GB Vram, but there might be 10 chips/modules based on the placement. Anymore than 10 Chips is unlikely based on what we can see in the film.

So you wrong on both assumption it's either 8/10 chips with a mixture of 1 and 2GB Vram.



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DonFerrari on 03 July 2019
BraLoD said:
DonFerrari said:

I think this is the first E3 or even any other show that you didn't predict LoD showing up.

well about Last Guardian I expected it would show up because Sony kept giving updates every other year. Now if you predicted The Agent will show as launch title for PS5 and exclusive for life and it was right then I would be impressed =p

Jan 1st of the year it was announced I made a thread saying it would be coming back that year for sure, then it appeared on that year E3. (2015 I think)

Agent is meh.

I actually never made and official prediction about LoD comeback, when I do you'll have a thread for that here xD

I thought all LoD conversation were the most official and important on the forum =p



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Vodacixi on 03 July 2019

Sony keeps talking big about things the are already doing. Just like when they announced PS4 and the said second hand games would be allowed. It's funny, sad and shameful all at the same time...



Angelv577 on 03 July 2019

That is what I wanted to hear. This is a competition after all.



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DonFerrari on 03 July 2019
Vodacixi said:
Sony keeps talking big about things the are already doing. Just like when they announced PS4 and the said second hand games would be allowed. It's funny, sad and shameful all at the same time...

They are just announcing what they do, the "funny, sad and shameful" would be that they need to say it because others aren't doing this.

BraLoD said:
DonFerrari said:

I thought all LoD conversation were the most official and important on the forum =p

It is the most important, indeed.

About official, you'll know it when gou see it xD

We can't wait for the announcement



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

TheMisterManGuy on 06 July 2019

I can't shake the feeling that Sony doesn't really understand why the PlayStation 4 was so successful. It wasn't because it was some uber powerful console (Even when it launched, it really wasn't that powerful). It succeeded because it had a diverse library of games for everyone, as well as a successful marketing campaign that capitalized on Microsoft's failings.

With the PS5, I feel like Sony is going in with a misguided approach, thinking PlayStation is some niche hardcore brand when it's really not, by prioritizing AAA developers, and expecting smaller teams to just follow them like Sheep. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I think Sony's mentality next gen has a chace at backfiring.



ShadowSoldier on 07 July 2019

PS3 taught Sony so much about what works and what doesnt.



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Azzanation on 07 July 2019
TheMisterManGuy said:
I can't shake the feeling that Sony doesn't really understand why the PlayStation 4 was so successful. It wasn't because it was some uber powerful console (Even when it launched, it really wasn't that powerful). It succeeded because it had a diverse library of games for everyone, as well as a successful marketing campaign that capitalized on Microsoft's failings.

With the PS5, I feel like Sony is going in with a misguided approach, thinking PlayStation is some niche hardcore brand when it's really not, by prioritizing AAA developers, and expecting smaller teams to just follow them like Sheep. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I think Sony's mentality next gen has a chace at backfiring.

I totally agree and i am suprised at many in here not seeing this either. When PS2 came out and became super successful, Sony followed with the PS3 with that Hardcore image in mind, because lets face it, casual gamers wont go out spending $899 on a gaming console.

Now lets rinse and repeat. PS4 came out super successful and Sony is following with that same mentality by focusing on the Hardcore audience. If PS5 wants to outsell its competitors it needs to do it at a cheaper price point with AA and A games aswell.

Nintendo and MS also have juggernaut IPs and it just takes a good game launch and its basically 360 vs PS3 all over again. Sony has alot more marker share to lose than the others so they need to be careful. Also they need to drop that censorship BS, that's going to hurt them.



TheMisterManGuy on 07 July 2019
Azzanation said:

I totally agree and i am suprised at many in here not seeing this either. When PS2 came out and became super successful, Sony followed with the PS3 with that Hardcore image in mind, because lets face it, casual gamers wont go out spending $899 on a gaming console.

I think people here aren't seeing a problem with it, because of Sony's claim of focusing on the hardcore gamer. Which sounds nice in PR, and on paper sounds good for them. In practice however, it's a strategy that rarely promotes growth for a brand as big as PlayStation. I think Sony is really undervaluing the PlayStation brand with PR like this. I don't think a niche product would be able to sell nearly 100m units since 2013.

It's probably me, But ever since Sony Computer Entertainment moved to California to become Sony Interactive Entertainment, SIE has become a lot more "corporate" compared to when the PS4 was first revealed. Back then, SCE and PlayStaion appeared as a company ran by people who really loved games of all kinds, and wanted the PS4 to be the best place to play for any and all gamers and developers. But going into the PS5, I feel like Sony has been stagnating in quite a few areas. Not allowing cross-play, the recent content policies forced onto third party developers, the PS5 moving away from catering to indies expecting them to come based on brand recognition alone, and Layden's comments that they want to make fewer but bigger games (Which to me, basically says they want to double down on their cinematic, story driven, action game focus). It feels like Sony is completely unwilling to take risks at this point. Just do more of the same, but bigger, and with a more narrow focus. I don't think it's as bad as the early PS3 era, but it pains me to say that Arrogant Sony is back to some degree.

I could be wrong about this, and I want Sony to prove me wrong. PlayStation means a lot to me and other gamers, but at the moment, Sony's not inspiring much confidence.