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Rumour: Sony's PS5 is definitely more powerful than Microsoft Project Scarlett

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Which will be the more powerful?

PS5 53 63.86%
 
XB4 30 36.14%
 
Total:83

Who cares??? We don't buy a console for the power but for the games!!



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BraLoD said:
DonFerrari said:

We had plenty of reports on Naughty Dog doing basically write to machine on PS3, may as well have done on PS4 but haven't seem evidence of it (or other devs).

But we have heard about the low level on PS4 being "closer" to the metal than Xb1.

Also heard that about TLoU.

Dunno how much truth does it hold, but they made my jaw drop with a 2006 machine in 2013, so yeah, the game is definitely very damn well developed for the PS3.

The end result tell all we need to know



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:
Pemalite said:

You can't go any lower level than a low-level API unless you wish to start writing in machine... And no dev is/has done that in generations.

Playstation 4 outshone the Xbox One simply because it was superior in almost every way except for the CPU, not because of any software layers.

We had plenty of reports on Naughty Dog doing basically write to machine on PS3, may as well have done on PS4 but haven't seem evidence of it (or other devs).

But we have heard about the low level on PS4 being "closer" to the metal than Xb1.

Nah. Naughty Dog didn't write in machine code for the Playstation 3... They would have had an insane development length otherwise, it's an intensive language.
They in-fact built Uncharted: Drakes Fortune in C++
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncharted:_Drake%27s_Fortune#Graphics_and_technology

Uncharted 2 and 3 were built on top of those foundations.

They did manage to leverage the SPU's on the Cell to an amazing extent, more so than most other developers, which is why ultimately they ended up being amazing tech showcases for the Playstation platform.

The Playstation 4 and Xbox One both have low-level API's, both API's do have some Pro's and Con's, but overall, there isn't much advantage between what either platform offers, the games have proven that.
The reason why the Playstation 4 manages to outshine the Xbox One is because of it's superior geometry, shader, texturing, bandwidth and more capabilities, it simply has more and better hardware for driving home visuals.

HollyGamer said:

Directx suck compared to Vulkan, it's a fact and console can even lower than Vulcan . If Microsoft focus on many device than Directx is a must. The consequence is They will be holded by Xbox One and lower budget PC from Xbox One era. 

Vulkan has a ton of advantages, certainly over Direct X 11.
Direct X 12 does catch things up though and does well especially in the PC space, but they are high-level API's with low-level efficiencies.

But respectfully I honestly don't think you understand what you are talking about?
You can have more than one API. Sony for example has GNM and GNMx... And they share allot of similar design philosophies with Direct X, especially once we start talking HLSL/PSSL.
In short, the Xbox isn't strictly powered by Direct X, Microsoft does actually offer something better... And Sony doesn't just offer GNM... It also has GNMx.

HollyGamer said:

On game designing factor. Every games will be holded back by Xbox One (Microsoft commit so to support Xbox One  , unlike PS5 Sony will not supported to make exclusives on PS4 anymore 

Nah. Neither Microsoft or Sony will be held back any more or less by their older consoles, Sony hasn't made any real commitments either way, so it's just baseless assertions either way.
This will be an extended console generation transition, more so than the transition from 7th to 8th gen hardware, that we can surmise because of the Xbox One X and Playstation 4 Pro.

If anything, Microsoft has less incentive to support it's 8th gen hardware as it's userbase is small.

HollyGamer said:

Why would Microsoft go to low level API if Microsoft intended to make games for every platform (low cost budget gaming PC / Xbox Original )??? Directx is more than enough . Most of games on Windows and Xbox already full directX, even some Xbox One games  planned to be played directly to PC . Xbox Scarlet will just be a PC or Steam machine. Also with Mod support and windows UI. Xbox will be a PC. 

Microsoft has always offered Direct X and a low-level API for developers who want to extract as much potential out of the hardware, doesn't matter if it's the Original Xbox, Xbox 360 or Xbox One, Microsoft has always offered more than one API.

Sony did the same with the Playstation 3 with OpenGL and it's low-level API and the same holds true with the Playstation 4.

HollyGamer said:

Exclusives is tiny yet both company are commit to bring more exclusives to the library, we will see a huge catalog of exclusives next year because the winning factor will be exclusive and quality. 

I agree.

HollyGamer said:

Also stop replying in this method because i don't get any notification from you. 

I am replying to more users than just you.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 17 June 2019

Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

We had plenty of reports on Naughty Dog doing basically write to machine on PS3, may as well have done on PS4 but haven't seem evidence of it (or other devs).

But we have heard about the low level on PS4 being "closer" to the metal than Xb1.

Nah. Naughty Dog didn't write in machine code for the Playstation 3... They would have had an insane development length otherwise, it's an intensive language.
They in-fact built Uncharted: Drakes Fortune in C++
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncharted:_Drake%27s_Fortune#Graphics_and_technology

Uncharted 2 and 3 were built on top of those foundations.

They did manage to leverage the SPU's on the Cell to an amazing extent, more so than most other developers, which is why ultimately they ended up being amazing tech showcases for the Playstation platform.

The Playstation 4 and Xbox One both have low-level API's, both API's do have some Pro's and Con's, but overall, there isn't much advantage between what either platform offers, the games have proven that.
The reason why the Playstation 4 manages to outshine the Xbox One is because of it's superior geometry, shader, texturing, bandwidth and more capabilities, it simply has more and better hardware for driving home visuals.

HollyGamer said:

Directx suck compared to Vulkan, it's a fact and console can even lower than Vulcan . If Microsoft focus on many device than Directx is a must. The consequence is They will be holded by Xbox One and lower budget PC from Xbox One era. 

Vulkan has a ton of advantages, certainly over Direct X 11.
Direct X 12 does catch things up though and does well especially in the PC space, but they are high-level API's with low-level efficiencies.

But respectfully I honestly don't think you understand what you are talking about?
You can have more than one API. Sony for example has GNM and GNMx... And they share allot of similar design philosophies with Direct X, especially once we start talking HLSL/PSSL.
In short, the Xbox isn't strictly powered by Direct X, Microsoft does actually offer something better... And Sony doesn't just offer GNM... It also has GNMx.

HollyGamer said:

On game designing factor. Every games will be holded back by Xbox One (Microsoft commit so to support Xbox One  , unlike PS5 Sony will not supported to make exclusives on PS4 anymore 

Nah. Neither Microsoft or Sony will be held back any more or less by their older consoles, Sony hasn't made any real commitments either way, so it's just baseless assertions either way.
This will be an extended console generation transition, more so than the transition from 7th to 8th gen hardware, that we can surmise because of the Xbox One X and Playstation 4 Pro.

If anything, Microsoft has less incentive to support it's 8th gen hardware as it's userbase is small.

HollyGamer said:

Why would Microsoft go to low level API if Microsoft intended to make games for every platform (low cost budget gaming PC / Xbox Original )??? Directx is more than enough . Most of games on Windows and Xbox already full directX, even some Xbox One games  planned to be played directly to PC . Xbox Scarlet will just be a PC or Steam machine. Also with Mod support and windows UI. Xbox will be a PC. 

Microsoft has always offered Direct X and a low-level API for developers who want to extract as much potential out of the hardware, doesn't matter if it's the Original Xbox, Xbox 360 or Xbox One, Microsoft has always offered more than one API.

Sony did the same with the Playstation 3 with OpenGL and it's low-level API and the same holds true with the Playstation 4.

HollyGamer said:

Exclusives is tiny yet both company are commit to bring more exclusives to the library, we will see a huge catalog of exclusives next year because the winning factor will be exclusive and quality. 

I agree.

HollyGamer said:

Also stop replying in this method because i don't get any notification from you. 

I am replying to more users than just you.

Something in VGC code mark some and not others when multi replying (perhaps only marks the first person you are replying?)

How would you explain then that among all Devs on PS3 ND were the ones having more efficiency on the development?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9813111one piece of evidence of ND using assembly and other means to "manually tweak" the code to the level of counting cycles to match.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

crissindahouse said:
thismeintiel said:

You have to wonder how happy, or not happy, devs are about this all online gaming that MS is aiming for, before everyone is even ready for it. They're going to be pushing for games to be on xCloud and/or GamePass out of the gate, which can't be anywhere as profitable as selling direct to the gamer.

Speaking of xCloud, do we know it will actually be like Netflix? Or will it be the same horrible concept as Stadia?

Not sure how third party devs like Gamepass (at least those who aren't on it and feel that people might buy their games less if they get already enough to play from Gamepass) but they shouldn't have a problem with xCloud. I doubt they will earn less with it and they have pretty much no extra work but a bigger possible audience. 

So, you think it will be more like Stadia's pricing model than Netflix's?



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Pemalite said:

Nah. Naughty Dog didn't write in machine code for the Playstation 3... They would have had an insane development length otherwise, it's an intensive language.
They in-fact built Uncharted: Drakes Fortune in C++
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncharted:_Drake%27s_Fortune#Graphics_and_technology

Just wanted to point out that technically, you can combine C++ with in-line Assembly (which is essentially readable machine code), this link has an example of what that'd look like:

https://www.cs.uaf.edu/2012/fall/cs301/lecture/10_01_link_with_cpp.html

It's still not something that most developers would want to do, because the compiler is usually going to write better optimized code.

But, Ferrari's link here actually purports that Naughty Dog did use assembly with C++: "instead dedicated their efforts to rebuilding the tools, engine, and game in C++ and assembly language."

DonFerrari said:

Something in VGC code mark some and not others when multi replying (perhaps only marks the first person you are replying?)

How would you explain then that among all Devs on PS3 ND were the ones having more efficiency on the development?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9813111one piece of evidence of ND using assembly and other means to "manually tweak" the code to the level of counting cycles to match.

 It also mentions in there that they used Assembly and C++.

Last edited by the-pi-guy - on 17 June 2019

PS5 sounds like it's $700. Doesnt sound too good.



Bet with Intrinsic:

The Switch will outsell 3DS (based on VGchartz numbers), according to me, while Intrinsic thinks the opposite will hold true. One month avatar control for the loser's avatar.

flashfire926 said:
PS5 sounds like it's $700. Doesnt sound too good.

Nah.  It'll most likely be a $600 box sold at $499.



DonFerrari said:

How would you explain then that among all Devs on PS3 ND were the ones having more efficiency on the development?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9813111one piece of evidence of ND using assembly and other means to "manually tweak" the code to the level of counting cycles to match.

They optimized their workload for the Cells SPE's more effectively than any other developer.
It is easy to utilize all the SPE's by making your workload parallel, it's another keeping them fed constantly, which is where Naughty Dog showed it's prowess.

Your link backs up the evidence I provided earlier that they used C++.
Assembly is not machine code.

the-pi-guy said:

Pemalite said:

Nah. Naughty Dog didn't write in machine code for the Playstation 3... They would have had an insane development length otherwise, it's an intensive language.
They in-fact built Uncharted: Drakes Fortune in C++
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncharted:_Drake%27s_Fortune#Graphics_and_technology

Just wanted to point out that technically, you can combine C++ with in-line Assembly (which is essentially readable machine code), this link has an example of what that'd look like:

https://www.cs.uaf.edu/2012/fall/cs301/lecture/10_01_link_with_cpp.html

It's still not something that most developers would want to do, because the compiler is usually going to write better optimized code.

But, Ferrari's link here actually purports that Naughty Dog did use assembly with C++: "instead dedicated their efforts to rebuilding the tools, engine, and game in C++ and assembly language."

DonFerrari said:

Something in VGC code mark some and not others when multi replying (perhaps only marks the first person you are replying?)

How would you explain then that among all Devs on PS3 ND were the ones having more efficiency on the development?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9813111one piece of evidence of ND using assembly and other means to "manually tweak" the code to the level of counting cycles to match.

 It also mentions in there that they used Assembly and C++.

Assembly isn't machine code, there is still a conversion that takes place by using an "Assembler". - If the original argument was about Assembly, then my original statements would indeed be false.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_language#Assembler
https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-machine-code-and-assembly-language/

Many developers will leverage assembly when targeting low-level API's anyway for parts of their code base.



the-pi-guy said:

Pemalite said:

Nah. Naughty Dog didn't write in machine code for the Playstation 3... They would have had an insane development length otherwise, it's an intensive language.
They in-fact built Uncharted: Drakes Fortune in C++
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncharted:_Drake%27s_Fortune#Graphics_and_technology

Just wanted to point out that technically, you can combine C++ with in-line Assembly (which is essentially readable machine code), this link has an example of what that'd look like:

https://www.cs.uaf.edu/2012/fall/cs301/lecture/10_01_link_with_cpp.html

It's still not something that most developers would want to do, because the compiler is usually going to write better optimized code.

But, Ferrari's link here actually purports that Naughty Dog did use assembly with C++: "instead dedicated their efforts to rebuilding the tools, engine, and game in C++ and assembly language."

DonFerrari said:

Something in VGC code mark some and not others when multi replying (perhaps only marks the first person you are replying?)

How would you explain then that among all Devs on PS3 ND were the ones having more efficiency on the development?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9813111one piece of evidence of ND using assembly and other means to "manually tweak" the code to the level of counting cycles to match.

 It also mentions in there that they used Assembly and C++.

Yep it does.

Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

How would you explain then that among all Devs on PS3 ND were the ones having more efficiency on the development?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9813111one piece of evidence of ND using assembly and other means to "manually tweak" the code to the level of counting cycles to match.

They optimized their workload for the Cells SPE's more effectively than any other developer.
It is easy to utilize all the SPE's by making your workload parallel, it's another keeping them fed constantly, which is where Naughty Dog showed it's prowess.

Your link backs up the evidence I provided earlier that they used C++.
Assembly is not machine code.

the-pi-guy said:

Just wanted to point out that technically, you can combine C++ with in-line Assembly (which is essentially readable machine code), this link has an example of what that'd look like:

https://www.cs.uaf.edu/2012/fall/cs301/lecture/10_01_link_with_cpp.html

It's still not something that most developers would want to do, because the compiler is usually going to write better optimized code.

But, Ferrari's link here actually purports that Naughty Dog did use assembly with C++: "instead dedicated their efforts to rebuilding the tools, engine, and game in C++ and assembly language."

 It also mentions in there that they used Assembly and C++.

Assembly isn't machine code, there is still a conversion that takes place by using an "Assembler". - If the original argument was about Assembly, then my original statements would indeed be false.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_language#Assembler
https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-machine-code-and-assembly-language/

Many developers will leverage assembly when targeting low-level API's anyway for parts of their code base.

Nope, my argument was that ND used a closer to the metal language than other devs as a reason their game where over the others. They had to go closer to the metal exactly to make sure they were using the HW as best as possible.

As far as I know Assembly is "as close as possible" without really writting 0 and 1.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994