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Locked: What is Gender?

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o_O.Q said:
Flilix said:

"These four should be sufficient. All the others are people who struggle to find  their identity, so they try to push themselves in categories. I don't think this is very useful (especially since a lot of them basically mean the same thing), and I also don't think it's a very healthy thing for these people to do."

so if someone wants to be a unicorn, for example, the other people around them should be expected to play along with that?

This is such a terrible argument that anti-LGBT+ groups keep on using to try to discredit people who struggle with understanding their own gender. Unicorns are mythical beings. Being transgender is completely different from being from a different species, c'mon. This is basic stuff. No one is trying to say that they're not human. This is so ridiculous. I know I can't expect any common sense from you, o_O.Q, but hopefully someone not as willfully ignorant and narrow-minded will read this and change their arguments.

Kuksenkov said:
As a bisexual individual, I'm supposed to be part of this LFBTQJXBEKUV+ "community", but I personally believe that the entire gender talk is ridiculous.

I will never understand "genderfluid" individuals who fluctuate between genders depending on how they are feeling. Nor will I ever understand those who utilize "they/them/their" pronouns when referring to themselves. These kind of people are struggling to love themselves and the bodies they were born with, and as a result all these bullshit of "I feel like a man today, but maybe in 10 minutes from now I'll be a woman. Tomorrow I am multiple genders at once, and next month I'll identify as a hydra from ancient mythology because I CAN and I FEEL THAY WAY, so you should address and acknowledge me as a monster from ancient mythology if I feel like one".

No, there is three options: Man/Woman/Other (please specify).

You don't need to use "LGBTQJXBEKUV+" to refer to the LGBT+ community. By doing that, you're just giving more ammo for bigots to attack us. Everyone is happy with just LGBT+ or LGBTQ, whichever you find more comfortable.

I'm not completely in par with the genderfluid community, so I can't tell you exactly how that works, but I say we listen before we invalidate them. But what I know is why some people prefer to use "they/them/their" pronouns. Some people don't feel totally male or female, and therefore they prefer to be called by a gender-neutral pronoun. I don't see why that should be such a big deal if it makes no difference for us but makes someone happier.

No one is saying that you can identify as non-human. That's such a ridiculous jump. Stop giving ammo for anti-LGBT+ groups to discredit a whole community because of your lack of knowledge of a group of people.

Ps.: Other (please specify) is an open-ended option. There are clearly more than three options if they ask you to specify. If there were only three options, they would probably just write the third option there.

kirby007 said:
Thank god *what gender is god?* i can now see who quoted me xD

Ahahahahahahahaha @jrpgfam you realise im jerking around right

MrWayne said:
o_O.Q said:

how do you differentiate between men and women?

Why are you answering with questions?

Because that's o_O.Q for you. That's what they do when they don't have arguments, they answer with random questions to try and change the subject.



G O O D B O I

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LuccaCardoso1 said:
o_O.Q said:

"These four should be sufficient. All the others are people who struggle to find  their identity, so they try to push themselves in categories. I don't think this is very useful (especially since a lot of them basically mean the same thing), and I also don't think it's a very healthy thing for these people to do."

so if someone wants to be a unicorn, for example, the other people around them should be expected to play along with that?

This is such a terrible argument that anti-LGBT+ groups keep on using to try to discredit people who struggle with understanding their own gender. Unicorns are mythical beings. Being transgender is completely different from being from a different species, c'mon. This is basic stuff. No one is trying to say that they're not human. This is so ridiculous. I know I can't expect any common sense from you, o_O.Q, but hopefully someone not as willfully ignorant and narrow-minded will read this and change their arguments.

Kuksenkov said:
As a bisexual individual, I'm supposed to be part of this LFBTQJXBEKUV+ "community", but I personally believe that the entire gender talk is ridiculous.

I will never understand "genderfluid" individuals who fluctuate between genders depending on how they are feeling. Nor will I ever understand those who utilize "they/them/their" pronouns when referring to themselves. These kind of people are struggling to love themselves and the bodies they were born with, and as a result all these bullshit of "I feel like a man today, but maybe in 10 minutes from now I'll be a woman. Tomorrow I am multiple genders at once, and next month I'll identify as a hydra from ancient mythology because I CAN and I FEEL THAY WAY, so you should address and acknowledge me as a monster from ancient mythology if I feel like one".

No, there is three options: Man/Woman/Other (please specify).

You don't need to use "LGBTQJXBEKUV+" to refer to the LGBT+ community. By doing that, you're just giving more ammo for bigots to attack us. Everyone is happy with just LGBT+ or LGBTQ, whichever you find more comfortable.

I'm not completely in par with the genderfluid community, so I can't tell you exactly how that works, but I say we listen before we invalidate them. But what I know is why some people prefer to use "they/them/their" pronouns. Some people don't feel totally male or female, and therefore they prefer to be called by a gender-neutral pronoun. I don't see why that should be such a big deal if it makes no difference for us but makes someone happier.

No one is saying that you can identify as non-human. That's such a ridiculous jump. Stop giving ammo for anti-LGBT+ groups to discredit a whole community because of your lack of knowledge of a group of people.

Ps.: Other (please specify) is an open-ended option. There are clearly more than three options if they ask you to specify. If there were only three options, they would probably just write the third option there.

kirby007 said:
Thank god *what gender is god?* i can now see who quoted me xD

Ahahahahahahahaha @jrpgfam you realise im jerking around right

MrWayne said:

Why are you answering with questions?

Because that's o_O.Q for you. That's what they do when they don't have arguments, they answer with random questions to try and change the subject.

"This is such a terrible argument that anti-LGBT+ groups keep on using to try to discredit people who struggle with understanding their own gender."

do you believe genders exist outside of the gender binary? if so why would this be a terrible argument?

" This is basic stuff. "

if its basic can you tell me how many genders actually exist?

"Because that's o_O.Q for you. That's what they do when they don't have arguments, they answer with random questions to try and change the subject."

i was recently banned supposedly because i did soomething like this and honestly i think you should be too

not because of the personal attacks but because you are lying, if you had followed the conversation you would have seen that my question was asked to actually make an argument

User moderated - Bristow9091

Last edited by Bristow9091 - on 02 June 2019

o_O.Q said:
Flilix said:

"These four should be sufficient. All the others are people who struggle to find  their identity, so they try to push themselves in categories. I don't think this is very useful (especially since a lot of them basically mean the same thing), and I also don't think it's a very healthy thing for these people to do."

so if someone wants to be a unicorn, for example, the other people around them should be expected to play along with that?

There are only a few ways that people are "expected to play along with". 

One of them is calling people what they ask to be called:

For some reason everyone in society is perfectly okay with respecting what people want to be called.  Jon instead of Jonathon, Abbie instead of Abigail, Nick instead of Nicholas, but suddenly when people are talking about pronouns, then suddenly they're being unreasonable.  

Another is respecting what bathroom people use:

What I think is interesting is that suddenly people are wanting government intervention to enforce what bathroom gets used. Even some of the same people who talk about how "gun free zones" only affect the people who are responsible gun owners, don't seem to apply the exact same logic to bathrooms and suddenly think that bathrooms signs are capable of stopping people who could sexually assault women.  (Somehow a lot of people are comfortable with these supposed sexual predators being in the same bathroom as their boys).  



the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

"These four should be sufficient. All the others are people who struggle to find  their identity, so they try to push themselves in categories. I don't think this is very useful (especially since a lot of them basically mean the same thing), and I also don't think it's a very healthy thing for these people to do."

so if someone wants to be a unicorn, for example, the other people around them should be expected to play along with that?

There are only a few ways that people are "expected to play along with". 

One of them is calling people what they ask to be called:

For some reason everyone in society is perfectly okay with respecting what people want to be called.  Jon instead of Jonathon, Abbie instead of Abigail, Nick instead of Nicholas, but suddenly when people are talking about pronouns, then suddenly they're being unreasonable.  

Another is respecting what bathroom people use:

What I think is interesting is that suddenly people are wanting government intervention to enforce what bathroom gets used. Even some of the same people who talk about how "gun free zones" only affect the people who are responsible gun owners, don't seem to apply the exact same logic to bathrooms and suddenly think that bathrooms signs are capable of stopping people who could sexually assault women.  (Somehow a lot of people are comfortable with these supposed sexual predators being in the same bathroom as their boys).  

"

There are only a few ways that people are "expected to play along with". 

One of them is calling people what they ask to be called:

For some reason everyone in society is perfectly okay with respecting what people want to be called."

well that's true but it has never been the case that you were expected to lie to yourself in the process of doing so, which i think is the problem people are having here

and there are other ways people are being expected to distort reality such as the thread i recently got banned for where its now becoming policy that the idea of birthing children is being disconnected from women, its a little disingenuous to argue that its just naming conventions that are facing pressure

"What I think is interesting is that suddenly people are wanting government intervention to enforce what bathroom gets used."

i honestly don't care about that, as i've said before government should be much smaller and have way less power and people individually should have more responsibility over their lives instead of ceding it all to government

that's why government can step in now and tell women not to abort their babies, because it has too much power and influence over the lives of people, when really i'd think people would want to have more control over their lives, obviously that means less aid from government but more freedom and people have to decide which they value more(that's my take on it at least)



Shiken said:
Gender is determined by wether or not you were born with a penis or a vagina.

And if you are born with both or neither? Then what?

Jaicee said:

Considering that lesbians have no physical advantages over other women in aggregate and are only a fraction as likely to commit acts of sexual assault as men are, I don't see why.

There is a RATIONAL reason for men to be restricted from women's facilities. There is no RATIONAL reason for women to be barred from women's restrooms.

I am part of the LGBTQI community... Clearly you haven't met as many lesbians as I have... Allot have made me question my masculinity. Haha

************************

If the individual looks like a bloke and identifies as such, then they are a bloke.
If the individual looks like a chick and identifies as such, then they are a chick.

Whatever reproductive organs someones possess or doesn't is ultimately irrelevant, because that is information you are not entitled to know... And thus by extension cannot be used as a basis for defining ones gender.



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Pemalite said:
Shiken said:
Gender is determined by wether or not you were born with a penis or a vagina.

And if you are born with both or neither? Then what?

Jaicee said:

Considering that lesbians have no physical advantages over other women in aggregate and are only a fraction as likely to commit acts of sexual assault as men are, I don't see why.

There is a RATIONAL reason for men to be restricted from women's facilities. There is no RATIONAL reason for women to be barred from women's restrooms.

I am part of the LGBTQI community... Clearly you haven't met as many lesbians as I have... Allot have made me question my masculinity. Haha

************************

If the individual looks like a bloke and identifies as such, then they are a bloke.
If the individual looks like a chick and identifies as such, then they are a chick.

Whatever reproductive organs someones possess or doesn't is ultimately irrelevant, because that is information you are not entitled to know... And thus by extension cannot be used as a basis for defining ones gender.

Much like any birth defect, this is the exception, not the rule.



Nintendo Switch Friend Code: SW-5643-2927-1984

Shiken said:
Pemalite said:

And if you are born with both or neither? Then what?

I am part of the LGBTQI community... Clearly you haven't met as many lesbians as I have... Allot have made me question my masculinity. Haha

************************

If the individual looks like a bloke and identifies as such, then they are a bloke.
If the individual looks like a chick and identifies as such, then they are a chick.

Whatever reproductive organs someones possess or doesn't is ultimately irrelevant, because that is information you are not entitled to know... And thus by extension cannot be used as a basis for defining ones gender.

Much like any birth defect, this is the exception, not the rule.

Doesn't matter how often or not it occurs, it still happens.
Still. You haven't answered the question.



o_O.Q said:
LuccaCardoso1 said:

This is such a terrible argument that anti-LGBT+ groups keep on using to try to discredit people who struggle with understanding their own gender. Unicorns are mythical beings. Being transgender is completely different from being from a different species, c'mon. This is basic stuff. No one is trying to say that they're not human. This is so ridiculous. I know I can't expect any common sense from you, o_O.Q, but hopefully someone not as willfully ignorant and narrow-minded will read this and change their arguments.

"This is such a terrible argument that anti-LGBT+ groups keep on using to try to discredit people who struggle with understanding their own gender."

do you believe genders exist outside of the gender binary? if so why would this be a terrible argument?

Not necessarily. It depends on what you define as a gender. Yes, I believe there are people who don't identify as male or female (hell, I know people who don't identify as male or female), but I don't know if you can consider not identifying as any binary gender a gender on itself.

It would be a terrible argument because unicorn is not a gender. Any gender is still human. Because humans are the only species able to give consent, humans are the only valid species able to be used in this discussion.

o_O.Q said:

" This is basic stuff. "

if its basic can you tell me how many genders actually exist?

"Basic stuff" is to keep this human discussion human. "Basic stuff" is knowing the difference between gender and species. You desperately need some interpretation lessons.

Again, how many genders exist, just like almost everything in this world, depends on who you ask. Since gender is mostly considered a social construct based on culture and behaviour, there isn't a definitive answer. And "how many genders actually exist" has absolutely nothing to do with what I called "basic stuff" there.

Ps.: Can you even answer something with something other than a question? Damn, you're just proving my point here.

o_O.Q said:

"Because that's o_O.Q for you. That's what they do when they don't have arguments, they answer with random questions to try and change the subject."

i was recently banned supposedly because i did soomething like this and honestly i think you should be too

not because of the personal attacks but because you are lying, if you had followed the conversation you would have seen that my question was asked to actually make an argument

Well, report me then.

I'm not talking about that specific question, I'm talking about how you almost always answer people with questions, trying to bait them into saying the things you want them to say. It's rare to see you stating something when answering to someone. As an example, you wrote 3 sentences in this post about the subject of the thread. All of them were questions.



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Pemalite said:
Shiken said:

Much like any birth defect, this is the exception, not the rule.

Doesn't matter how often or not it occurs, it still happens.
Still. You haven't answered the question.

The answer is that it is a birth defect.  It really is that simple.  As with any birth defect, special circumstances exist.  That does not change the fact that gender is determined by what you were born with.

For example, conjoined twins are a birth defect.  That does not make them one person.  Another would be that my son is a child with autism.  He has the intelligence someone much older than himself, especially when it comes to math.  However his maturity is that of someone 5 years younger than himself.  He talks like a 4 year old and only enjoys shows designed for children of that age.  This however does not change the fact that he is a 10 year old boy.

If someone was born with both a penis and a vagina, it does change their gender.  Due to the birth defect, other things will need to be looked at on a biological level to determine which of the two genders they really are.  Estrogen levels vs testosterone as one example.  However that is an entirely different subject all together.  The point is that just because there is a birth defect and other things need to be looked at to determine their gender, that does not mean that there are more than two genders.



Nintendo Switch Friend Code: SW-5643-2927-1984

Shiken said:
Pemalite said:

Doesn't matter how often or not it occurs, it still happens.
Still. You haven't answered the question.

The answer is that it is a birth defect.  It really is that simple.  As with any birth defect, special circumstances exist.  That does not change the fact that gender is determined by what you were born with.

For example, conjoined twins are a birth defect.  That does not make them one person.  Another would be that my son is a child with autism.  He has the intelligence someone much older than himself, especially when it comes to math.  However his maturity is that of someone 5 years younger than himself.  He talks like a 4 year old and only enjoys shows designed for children of that age.  This however does not change the fact that he is a 10 year old boy.

If someone was born with both a penis and a vagina, it does change their gender.  Due to the birth defect, other things will need to be looked at on a biological level to determine which of the two genders they really are.  Estrogen levels vs testosterone as one example.  However that is an entirely different subject all together.  The point is that just because there is a birth defect and other things need to be looked at to determine their gender, that does not mean that there are more than two genders.

The issue is that there aren't clear cut ways to determine that.  

If you go by chromosomes, you get people who don't actually know what "gender" they are.  Some people with "male chromosomes" are born without a penis.  Some people with "female chromosomes" are born with a penis.  And there are lots of other variations with multiple chromosomes.  XXY, XXX, XYY, etc.  

Every biological basis for gender has that kind of problem.  

Gender is complicated and that's before you even get into things like people having different brain structures that might cause them to have gender dysphoria.  

It's much more accurate and easier to simply let people identify themselves.