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Locked: What is Gender?

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MrWayne said:
o_O.Q said:

how do you differentiate between men and women?

Why are you answering with questions?

It's a spambot.



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MrWayne said:
o_O.Q said:

how do you differentiate between men and women?

Why are you answering with questions?

because your answer will very clearly point out the conflict in interest

i do find it funny how people in support of this always seem to have trouble with simple questions like "how do you differentiate between men and women?"

how can you be a women's rights advocate if you have difficulty identifying what a woman actually is?



sundin13 said:

The example that I immediately think of is bathrooms, and I find the fear over allowing transgendered individuals into bathrooms corresponding with the identified gender absolutely ridiculous and overblown, so you will have to elaborate a little more if you want to argue that point...

I most often hear about the sports issue at present, but as you wish:

The concern from where most feminists that I'm aligned with are coming from when it comes to bathroom access isn't so much worry about men who legitimately believe they are female using women's restrooms as it is concern that opportunists without this confusion will for purely voyeuristic purposes at best if we, as transgender movement activists suggest we should, collectively allow literally anyone who claims to be female to use women's restrooms.

Here's a concrete illustration of what I mean:

Last month, two groups of American high school students in Nebraska walked out of classes at around 10:30 AM local time: a group of about 20 girls saying they felt violated by the presence of a boy in the girl's restroom and a separate counter-protest consisting of about 40 of their classmates (both female and, notably, also male) supporting the boy's ostensible right to be there. The boy has recently started claiming to be female, which both state law and federal guidance now obliges Abraham Lincoln High School to admit him to the girl's restrooms. There appears to be no evidence that the boy is doing anything to transition beyond claiming to be a girl, and hence even some girls who support the transgender movement are skeptical of his claim to be female.

The main reason why girls and women need separate bathrooms and locker rooms and shelters and such is safety. Physical safety. You are exposed and at your most vulnerable in spaces like these. The fear of rape specifically is the main thing that makes girls uncomfortable with the presence of a boy in the girl's restroom. That's what these girls are experiencing. I think that's serious anyway and that they shouldn't have to experience that fear daily at a taxpayer-funded high school.

The other side argues that the boy legitimately struggles with dysphoria and feels most comfortable in the girl's restroom and that that's the issue. Okay, well at least 20 girls feel uncomfortable with him being there: where is the concern of the law for their comfort? Why does the ostensible discomfort of one boy outweigh that of 20 girls in importance?

Last edited by Jaicee - on 02 June 2019

o_O.Q said:
MrWayne said:

Why are you answering with questions?

because your answer will very clearly point out the conflict in interest

i do find it funny how people in support of this always seem to have trouble with simple questions like "how do you differentiate between men and women?"

how can you be a women's rights advocate if you have difficulty identifying what a woman actually is?

The way you engage in conversations annoys many people, some even stopped replying to you, you should lower the amount of counter questions in your replies and write your thought directly.

Now to the answer: Why should I differentiate between men and women?



MrWayne said:
o_O.Q said:

because your answer will very clearly point out the conflict in interest

i do find it funny how people in support of this always seem to have trouble with simple questions like "how do you differentiate between men and women?"

how can you be a women's rights advocate if you have difficulty identifying what a woman actually is?

The way you engage in conversations annoys many people, some even stopped replying to you, you should lower the amount of counter questions in your replies and write your thought directly.

Now to the answer: Why should I differentiate between men and women?

"Why should I differentiate between men and women?"

uh... well if you're a woman's rights advocate also known as a feminist... i'd think you would?

are you in favour of desegregating sports and having men and women competing against each other?

taking away affirmative action engineered to increase the uptake of women into various fields such as stem?

taking away the various exclusive rights and privileges women enjoy under the patriarchy? such as abortion rights, for example?

"The way you engage in conversations annoys many people, some even stopped replying to you, you should lower the amount of counter questions in your replies and write your thought directly."

how about you become my mentor and i pay you to teach me to be more sensible?



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Cobretti2 said:
OR WE CAN GO WITH THIS


Woman: A person born as a female, and who identifies as female.

Man: A person born as a male, and who identifies as a male.

Transgender Man: A person who was assigned female at birth, but now identifies as a man. Some trans people choose to undergo gender reassignment surgery. Others prefer not to, but still identify as a different gender.

Transgender Woman: A person who was assigned male at birth, but who identifies as a woman. As above, some trans people choose to undergo gender reassignment surgery. Others prefer not to, but still identify as a different gender.

Trans person: This can mean transsexual or transgender. A transsexual is a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex.

Trans Man: A trans man is someone who was assigned female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Trans Woman: A person who was assigned male at birth, but who identifies as a woman

Female to Male: This term is often abbreviated to ‘FTM’ and refers to a transsexual or a transgender man.

Male to Female: This term is often abbreviated to ‘FTM’ and refers to a transsexual or a transgender female.

Transsexual: A person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex. Transsexuals are people who transition from one sex to another, usually through dress, hormone therapy, etc.

Cisgender: A person who identifies with the gender of which they were born. For example, if someone is born as a female and identifies as a woman.

Cis Female: Cis is short for cisgender. So a cisgender female is a female who identifies as a woman.

Cis Male: Cis is short for cisgender. A cisgender male is a male who identifies as a man.

Gender Non-Conforming: A person who does not identify with either the male of female genders.

None Gender: A person who does not identify with any gender in particular.

Non-Binary: A person who does not identify entirely with either the female or male genders. They may identify somewhere on a spectrum.

Neutrois: Neutrois is a non-binary gender identity which is considered to be a neutral or null gender.

Genderfluid: A person who does not identify entirely with either the female or male genders. Genderqueer: An overarching term used to describe people who do not identify exclusively as either male or female.

Demigender: This term, (demi means half) is an umbrella term for nonbinary gender identities that have a partial connection to a certain gender.

Demigirl: A person (can also be called a demiwoman or a demifemale) who identifies partially with being a woman or has feminine characteristics. They may have been assigned female as birth, but they could also have been born as a male.

Demiboy: A person (can also be called a demiman or demimale) who identifies partially with being a man or masculine characteristics. They may have been assigned male at birth, but they could also have been born as a female.

Agender: This literally means ‘without gender’, so a person who doesn’t identify with any gender.

Intergender: Intergender people have a gender identity that is in the middle between the binary genders of female and male, and may be a mix of both.

Intersex: A person who is born with the reproductive anatomy of both a man and a woman. For example, they might appear to be female on the outside, but have mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. These people were previously referred to as hermaphrodites, but that term is considered rude and outdated.

Pangender: A person who identifies as more than one gender.

Poligender: Translates to ‘many genders’. A person who identifies as more than one gender.

Omnigender: Translates to ‘all genders’. A person who identifies as more than one gender.

Bigender: Translates to ‘two genders’. A person who identifies as both male and female genders. Some bigender people have two distinct male and female personas.

Androgyne: A person who doesn’t identify with either gender. They are both feminine and masculine.

Androgyny: The combination of masculine and feminine characteristics. Androgyny can apply to many things - someone’s gender identity, sexual identity, and even fashion.

Third Gender: People who identify as neither a man nor a woman. Some cultures refer to some of their people by a third gender. For example, in Samoafa’afafines are male at birth, but if a family had more boys than girls and needed more women to help with housework, they male children would be raised as a fa’afafine.

Trigender: Translates to three genders. A person who shifts between the male, female and third genders.


https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/07/explained-the-33-gender-identities-recognised-by-the-2016-australian-sex-survey/

Indeed. Plus, WMTTTTTFMTCCCGNNNGDDDAIIPPOBAATT is a nice companion to LGBTTQQIAAP.



Chinese food for breakfast

 

MrWayne said:

Why do you think any of these things are attacked by transgender people? What would be an instance where the interests of feminists and transgender rights activists collided?

That's such a broad question that it would be easier for me to just provide you with a video outlining some perspectives I agree with on this subject. Is it okay if I do that?

Assuming your answer is in the affirmative, here's the deal:

On March 15th, a panel discussion entitled Gender Hurts: The Feminist Fight Against Gender took place in New York City at a secret location divulged only to ticket-buyers but two hours in advance. The discussion was followed by a Declaration of Women's Sex-Based Rights, marking the formal beginning of a movement here in this country analogous to the increasingly powerful gender critical women's movement that we've seen emerge in the UK in the recent years. The whole event had an almost clandestine feel to it despite the fact that none of the activities were illegal in any way. The organizers felt that, due to harassment and threats from the transgender movement, these steps were necessary to assure the safety of the participants and attendees...a fact which by itself shows you the importance of having such events as these! It shows you the extent to which one narrative about the concept of gender identity and of gender itself has come to dominate our political landscape, and hence the merits of dissenting opinions being shared. I submit for one as a casual observation that comparable harassment and threats from feminists do not, by contrast, accompany events organized by transgender movement activists.

The panel talk was organized by the Women's Liberation Front (WoLF for short) and hosted by its noted representative Natasha Chart and features my personal favorite feminist speaker and thought leader: long-time lesbian feminist activist, scholar, and author Dr. Sheila Jeffreys, who is known for her unorthodox, controversial, and intellectually challenging positions on a wide range of topics. At present, Jeffreys' body of work is especially influential in South Korea's burgeoning Escape the Corset movement and among Western gender abolitionists. Here she chronicles the historical backdrop against which these gender identity events are taking place. The talk also features three detransitioned and desisted women (Chiara, Jesse, and Helena) from a group called the Pique Resilience Project who share fascinating first-hand insights about the specific dangers that today's young women and lesbians in particular face from the gender identity movement, as well as a forwarded statement by Lierre Keith of the environmental activist group Deep Green Resistance and a question-and-answer session.

I'd characterize Gender Hurts as the single best and most interesting talk that I've seen to date on the topic of gender identity. Some of the most salient points that one comes away with include the point that transgender politics are a new phenomenon, NOT something that have just always been with us historically (a powerful reality check that Jeffreys brings out at length), and the fact that the females of the transgender movement ("trans men") face significant discrimination from, and social disadvantage relative to, the males ("trans women"). Helena reveals that the latter discovery marked the beginning of her move toward detransitioning, as it turns out that male privilege doesn't care how you identify yourself. (Indeed one casually observes the curious absence of "trans male" CEOs and politicians and thought leaders and media representation in general. It's as if being biologically male gives you some sort of social advantage that women don't enjoy!)

Below you will find a video recording of the full discussion and Q&A session. Care was taken to avoid showing footage of the ordinary attendees themselves, likely out of safety concerns. (Only the panelists are shown, though one still hears the audience's questions, some of which reveal a bit of their demography.) It contains much useful information about the gender critical movement, including resources you can check out. It's 2 hours, so I recommend viewing it when you have some time on your hands:

Last edited by Jaicee - on 02 June 2019

Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:

The example that I immediately think of is bathrooms, and I find the fear over allowing transgendered individuals into bathrooms corresponding with the identified gender absolutely ridiculous and overblown, so you will have to elaborate a little more if you want to argue that point...

I most often hear about the sports issue at present, but as you wish:

The concern from where most feminists that I'm aligned with are coming from when it comes to bathroom access isn't so much worry about men who legitimately believe they are female using women's restrooms as it is concern that opportunists without this confusion will for purely voyeuristic purposes at best if we, as transgender movement activists suggest we should, collectively allow literally anyone who claims to be female to use women's restrooms.

Here's a concrete illustration of what I mean:

Last month, two groups of American high school students in Nebraska walked out of classes at around 10:30 AM local time: a group of about 20 girls saying they felt violated by the presence of a boy in the girl's restroom and a separate counter-protest consisting of about 40 of their classmates (both female and, notably, also male) supporting the boy's ostensible right to be there. The boy has recently started claiming to be female, which both state law and federal guidance now obliges Abraham Lincoln High School to admit him to the girl's restrooms. There appears to be no evidence that the boy is doing anything to transition beyond claiming to be a girl, and hence even some girls who support the transgender movement are skeptical of his claim to be female.

The main reason why girls and women need separate bathrooms and locker rooms and shelters and such is safety. Physical safety. You are exposed and at your most vulnerable in spaces like these. The fear of rape specifically is the main thing that makes girls uncomfortable with the presence of a boy in the girl's restroom. That's what these girls are experiencing. I think that's serious anyway and that they shouldn't have to experience that fear daily at a taxpayer-funded high school.

The other side argues that the boy legitimately struggles with dysphoria and feels most comfortable in the girl's restroom and that that's the issue. Okay, well at least 20 girls feel uncomfortable with him being there: where is the concern of the law for their comfort? Why does the ostensible discomfort of one boy outweigh that of 20 girls in importance?

There is no functional difference in ability to commit crimes between a bathroom which allows transgendered individuals to use and a bathroom that does not.

As for your example, it may sound harsh, but I don't particularly care about someone's worries if they are misguided. These same issues were largely brought up during the civil rights movement. Allowing black people into white bathrooms made individuals feel uncomfortable and frightened for their safety. They were afraid that they would be sexually assaulted or raped. These argument should not be entertained because they are not legitimate. They are based in racism and we should not stand besides injustices in order to validate bigotry.

You speak about a theoretical harm that could come to these kids, but then turn around and completely ignore the very real harm that is being inflicted on transgendered individuals. Violence, be it sexual or physical, is all too common against transgendered individuals, and often, bathrooms matching their assigned sex are very dangerous places for these individuals to be.



sundin13 said:

There is no functional difference in ability to commit crimes between a bathroom which allows transgendered individuals to use and a bathroom that does not.

As for your example, it may sound harsh, but I don't particularly care about someone's worries if they are misguided. These same issues were largely brought up during the civil rights movement. Allowing black people into white bathrooms made individuals feel uncomfortable and frightened for their safety. They were afraid that they would be sexually assaulted or raped. These argument should not be entertained because they are not legitimate. They are based in racism and we should not stand besides injustices in order to validate bigotry.

You speak about a theoretical harm that could come to these kids, but then turn around and completely ignore the very real harm that is being inflicted on transgendered individuals. Violence, be it sexual or physical, is all too common against transgendered individuals, and often, bathrooms matching their assigned sex are very dangerous places for these individuals to be.

There is no functional difference, you say? Well consider these points:

-Only so many girls and women are lesbians.
-Girls and women are exponentially more likely to be sexually attacked by a man than by a lesbian.
-The average male has both a physical height (as in speed) and substantial strength advantage over the average female.

I would consider all those things meaningful distinctions; distinctions infinitely more meaningful than those between being black and being white. The fact is that girls and women statistically tend to feel safer in single-sex environments for reasons that are perfectly rational! I think that when one has their pants down is precisely the time when they're the most in need of feeling safe.

If unconventional men aren't safe in the men's restroom, that's not the fault of women. That says that men need to change. Women don't need to be penalized for male violence.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 02 June 2019

sundin13 said:

There is no functional difference in ability to commit crimes between a bathroom which allows transgendered individuals to use and a bathroom that does not.

As for your example, it may sound harsh, but I don't particularly care about someone's worries if they are misguided. These same issues were largely brought up during the civil rights movement. Allowing black people into white bathrooms made individuals feel uncomfortable and frightened for their safety. They were afraid that they would be sexually assaulted or raped. These argument should not be entertained because they are not legitimate. They are based in racism and we should not stand besides injustices in order to validate bigotry.

You speak about a theoretical harm that could come to these kids, but then turn around and completely ignore the very real harm that is being inflicted on transgendered individuals. Violence, be it sexual or physical, is all too common against transgendered individuals, and often, bathrooms matching their assigned sex are very dangerous places for these individuals to be.

A point well made, Eric.

Granted, your analogy covers most of the concerns, but it doesn't account for voyeurism. As a human being, I find it concerning that you would allow a male to enter the women's bathroom based on nothing more than a gender claim. But as a man, I approve.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Gamers Club