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Locked: What is Gender?

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o_O.Q said:
SpokenTruth said:

Do you do this on purpose or is it just natural? 

I'll answer for you though so long as you can understand some math.

Gender is a function under a specific, given set (Human).  Species is a completely different set.  This should never, ever, ever, need to be pointed out to you again.

" This should never, ever, ever, need to be pointed out to you again."

dishonestly evading straight answers on this topic doesn't make it logically consistent even though you may think so

"Gender is a function under a specific, given set (Human)."

now what I would say is that its simply a function of sex/biology but you have decided to throw that away, so what is gender derived from in your view?

I have so far heard that its simply clothing, is that your belief? that if I wanted to become a man then all i'd need to do is change up the clothing I wear?

why could I then not decide to invent some new clothing styles to represent a new gender I have created?

why couldn't I paste a horn to my head and call myself a unicorn?

You seem to be mistaking gender identity with gender expression.

Gender identity is the psychological self. What you feel.

Gender expression is the presentation of your gender.  Clothes are simply a part of that. 


Your unicorn example doesn't work because how does one feel like a unicorn?  To go back to my math analogy, a unicorn is again in a completely different set.  More to the fact, that set would technically be a zero given unicorns don't even exist.  Further, you chose an object to express or identify as rather than a gender.

But if you want to call yourself a unicorn, go for it.  They have My Little Pony cosplays and comic conventions all the time. Just recognize you are intentionally making a mockery out of people's legitimate psychological feelings and emotions which I shouldn't have to tell you is a pretty crass thing to do.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

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the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

now what I would say is that its simply a function of sex/biology but you have decided to throw that away, so what is gender derived from in your view?

I have so far heard that its simply clothing, is that your belief? that if I wanted to become a man then all i'd need to do is change up the clothing I wear?

why could I then not decide to invent some new clothing styles to represent a new gender I have created?

why couldn't I paste a horn to my head and call myself a unicorn?

No one has said that gender is derived from clothing.  What was said was the opposite.  That people who are transgender men will tend to dress like stereotypical men, and similarly people who are transgender women will tend to dress like stereotypical women.  

I don't think you have yet to answer this question:

How do you define men/women?  

If you go by chromosomes: you run into 2 difficulties:

The first difficulty is that a small number of people don't know what they are.  Some people are born with XX chromosomes, and yet they are born with a penis.  

The second difficulty is that not everyone has XY or XX.  


If you go by whether they have a "male" parts/ "female" parts, you run into another difficulty:

There are some people born with both sets of parts.  Where do they go?

However you biologically define gender, you at minimum need to accept that scientifically there are at least 3 genders.  That's a fact you keep ignoring or dismissing.


You keep trying to bring up the species argument, but how do you think society would care?  Suppose that someone out there really wanted to be a unicorn, what does it matter?  How do you think that would affect society?  

What I mean by how is the following, this is how transgenderism affects society:

-people have to respect what other people are called (holy cow, just like it is right now!)

-people have to respect what gender someone wants to be (I know, it's totally different from what we have right now where we only respect what gender someone is.)

And that's pretty much it.  There's no massive societal shift, there's nothing.  

If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and yet they still act like a regular person.  I don't consider that an issue. It doesn't change anything. 

If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and act like they are a unicorn, that's only an issue because that person is going to have a lot of issues with life.  As long as they are being respectful of other people, I really don't care.

"No one has said that gender is derived from clothing. "

*looks a couple pages back*

"

so for you clothes determine who is man and who is woman? would that be a fair conclusion?

Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%."

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9017717

i could look through other thread i've participated in and bring up even more if you want

"If you go by chromosomes: you run into 2 difficulties..."

exceptions exist with any practical category, the same will occur with whatever redefinition of gender you believe in

"However you biologically define gender, you at minimum need to accept that scientifically there are at least 3 genders."

men, women and what else? how would you define this third gender?

"That's a fact you keep ignoring or dismissing."

because its not a fact, having a very small penis, or a very large clit or being a hermaphrodite does not make someone a third gender

but lets say that i'm wrong, how would you define this third gender?

"You keep trying to bring up the species argument,"

i never at any point talked about species? 

"but how do you think society would care?  Suppose that someone out there really wanted to be a unicorn, what does it matter?  How do you think that would affect society?"

i have no problem with people pretending to be what they want to be, i've always said that, my problem is when other people are expected or forced to abide by their delusions

the same way that i don't think christians should be able to impose their religious doctrine on people despite me also thinking that they should be free to practice them

regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification? i never expected to see someone the justifications i've seen in these discussions and i've learned a lot, that wouldn't have happened if i'd just kept my mouth shut

"people have to respect what other people are called (holy cow, just like it is right now!")

if you are referring to pronouns, people assess which pronouns apply to people they interact with on a subconscious level... because we identify who is male and female (through obvious biological characteristics) on a subconscious level 

the proposal here is that despite all of this a person should just fight themselves internally to submit to this ideology and i would think that in a free society we wouldn't be going down this route

"people have to respect what gender someone wants to be (I know, it's totally different from what we have right now where we only respect what gender someone is.)"

why should they have to? in the process lying to themselves internally?

"If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and yet they still act like a regular person.  I don't consider that an issue. It doesn't change anything."

i wouldn't care as i've said, again i asked seeking clarification because again obviously if physical characteristics don't matter and its about what is in the mind then why couldn't someone identify as a unicorn?

"If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and act like they are a unicorn, that's only an issue because that person is going to have a lot of issues with life.  As long as they are being respectful of other people, I really don't care."

same here as long as i don't have to entertain their bullshit and i don't have more laws and restrictions placed on my freedom then have at it



SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

" This should never, ever, ever, need to be pointed out to you again."

dishonestly evading straight answers on this topic doesn't make it logically consistent even though you may think so

"Gender is a function under a specific, given set (Human)."

now what I would say is that its simply a function of sex/biology but you have decided to throw that away, so what is gender derived from in your view?

I have so far heard that its simply clothing, is that your belief? that if I wanted to become a man then all i'd need to do is change up the clothing I wear?

why could I then not decide to invent some new clothing styles to represent a new gender I have created?

why couldn't I paste a horn to my head and call myself a unicorn?

You seem to be mistaking gender identity with gender expression.

Gender identity is the psychological self. What you feel.

Gender expression is the presentation of your gender.  Clothes are simply a part of that. 


Your unicorn example doesn't work because how does one feel like a unicorn?  To go back to my math analogy, a unicorn is again in a completely different set.  More to the fact, that set would technically be a zero given unicorns don't even exist.  Further, you chose an object to express or identify as rather than a gender.

But if you want to call yourself a unicorn, go for it.  They have My Little Pony cosplays and comic conventions all the time. Just recognize you are intentionally making a mockery out of people's legitimate psychological feelings and emotions which I shouldn't have to tell you is a pretty crass thing to do.

"You seem to be mistaking gender identity with gender expression."

for this context they are one and the same, because obviously the people around you can't perceive what is going on inside your head unless you express it right? or do you live on a remote island populated by psychics?

"Your unicorn example doesn't work because how does one feel like a unicorn?"

the same way this woman can feel like a cat in a woman's body?

https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/item/22435-woman-says-she-s-a-cat-trapped-in-human-body-gender-identity-unknown

so you think she's crazy?

how does one feel like a female when they are in a male's body?

"To go back to my math analogy"

doesn't apply because you don't believe that biology has a place in discussion about gender, unless i'm wrong?

"Just recognize you are intentionally making a mockery out of people's legitimate psychological feelings and emotions"

i'm not, its a clarifying question because as i've said if biology is not where the differentiation is being made and instead we rely on what people identify as then this presents what i would think should be obvious problems

beyond that this is not an argument feelings do not determine reality, so why would someone's feelings matter in a discussion about reality? do you cut religious people this kind of slack?



o_O.Q said:
SpokenTruth said:

You seem to be mistaking gender identity with gender expression.

Gender identity is the psychological self. What you feel.

Gender expression is the presentation of your gender.  Clothes are simply a part of that. 


Your unicorn example doesn't work because how does one feel like a unicorn?  To go back to my math analogy, a unicorn is again in a completely different set.  More to the fact, that set would technically be a zero given unicorns don't even exist.  Further, you chose an object to express or identify as rather than a gender.

But if you want to call yourself a unicorn, go for it.  They have My Little Pony cosplays and comic conventions all the time. Just recognize you are intentionally making a mockery out of people's legitimate psychological feelings and emotions which I shouldn't have to tell you is a pretty crass thing to do.

"You seem to be mistaking gender identity with gender expression."

1). for this context they are one and the same, because obviously the people around you can't perceive what is going on inside your head unless you express it right? or do you live on a remote island populated by psychics?

"Your unicorn example doesn't work because how does one feel like a unicorn?"

2). the same way this woman can feel like a cat in a woman's body?

https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/item/22435-woman-says-she-s-a-cat-trapped-in-human-body-gender-identity-unknown

so you think she's crazy?

how does one feel like a female when they are in a male's body?

"To go back to my math analogy"

3). doesn't apply because you don't believe that biology has a place in discussion about gender, unless i'm wrong?

"Just recognize you are intentionally making a mockery out of people's legitimate psychological feelings and emotions"

4). i'm not, its a clarifying question because as i've said if biology is not where the differentiation is being made and instead we rely on what people identify as then this presents what i would think should be obvious problems

beyond that this is not an argument feelings do not determine reality, so why would someone's feelings matter in a discussion about reality? do you cut religious people this kind of slack?

1). No, they are not the same. Why is this so hard for you to understand?  And yes, that is exactly the purpose for having a gender expression...so that it broadcasts to others what gender they wish to present as.

2). Trans-speciesism is a fetish.  Not a gender issue.  Do you get the difference or will I need to explain this too?

3). Biology deals with the sex of a person.  Gender is a psychology function. 

4). Oh, yes you are. Especially given we've all had these clarifying discussions with you several times.  Your claims that you can just feel like a unicorn (a non-existent, non-human fabrication) is a direct insult to the actual, real psychological gender associations that people feel.

And I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph.

Last edited by SpokenTruth - on 12 June 2019

Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

Gender is one of a few things, depending on which definition you want to use.

Yes, there are multiple definitions. Yes, one of them refers to social norms and conventions. But yes, one of them also explicitly refers to sexes. Literally everyone in this thread is correct except for the fact that they can't agree on which definition we're talking about.



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What I find amusing about the "gender" debate is that it's basically an English language problem.
In Romania, we don't talk about genders when talking about a person. Genders are noun related, for inanimate objects, and that's about it. A person has a "sex" and that's all. There is nothing aside from biology that factors into the discussion about what a person is in that regards.
Which leads to the very interesting question of how much the language influences this sort of thing for a person. Is it indeed an issue or is it just something that got cooked up in a very strange rebellion against social norms and/or political correctness.



Azuren said:
Gender is one of a few things, depending on which definition you want to use.

Yes, there are multiple definitions. Yes, one of them refers to social norms and conventions. But yes, one of them also explicitly refers to sexes. Literally everyone in this thread is correct except for the fact that they can't agree on which definition we're talking about.

I actually don't think the last sentence is accurate. What I see is one group that agrees there are multiple definitions depending on context while another stalwartly tries to say that gender has forever and only ever will refer to sexes. 



...

I feel like gender will become or blur into genre for some weird reason. Media be overtaking.



Lube Me Up

SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

"You seem to be mistaking gender identity with gender expression."

1). for this context they are one and the same, because obviously the people around you can't perceive what is going on inside your head unless you express it right? or do you live on a remote island populated by psychics?

"Your unicorn example doesn't work because how does one feel like a unicorn?"

2). the same way this woman can feel like a cat in a woman's body?

https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/item/22435-woman-says-she-s-a-cat-trapped-in-human-body-gender-identity-unknown

so you think she's crazy?

how does one feel like a female when they are in a male's body?

"To go back to my math analogy"

3). doesn't apply because you don't believe that biology has a place in discussion about gender, unless i'm wrong?

"Just recognize you are intentionally making a mockery out of people's legitimate psychological feelings and emotions"

4). i'm not, its a clarifying question because as i've said if biology is not where the differentiation is being made and instead we rely on what people identify as then this presents what i would think should be obvious problems

beyond that this is not an argument feelings do not determine reality, so why would someone's feelings matter in a discussion about reality? do you cut religious people this kind of slack?

1). No, they are not the same. Why is this so hard for you to understand?  And yes, that is exactly the purpose for having a gender expression...so that it broadcasts to others what gender they wish to present as.

2). Trans-speciesism is a fetish.  Not a gender issue.  Do you get the difference or will I need to explain this too?

3). Biology deals with the sex of a person.  Gender is a psychology function. 

4). Oh, yes you are. Especially given we've all had these clarifying discussions with you several times.  Your claims that you can just feel like a unicorn (a non-existent, non-human fabrication) is a direct insult to the actual, real psychological gender associations that people feel.

And I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph.

"No, they are not the same. Why is this so hard for you to understand?  And yes, that is exactly the purpose for having a gender expression...so that it broadcasts to others what gender they wish to present as."

all we can perceive as non-psychics is someone's expression of what they feel inside which obviously means that its the only thing relevant to the discussion

"Trans-speciesism is a fetish.  Not a gender issue."

you are the one defining gender as what someone feels they are on the inside not me

"Gender identity is the psychological self. What you feel.

Gender expression is the presentation of your gender.  Clothes are simply a part of that."

if someone feels like a cat why can't that be their gender? if someone feels like a unicorn(a white horse with a horn) why can't that be their gender?

"Gender is a psychology function."

and you don't think physiology and psychology are linked?

"Your claims that you can just feel like a unicorn"

I never said that I personally feel like a unicorn, I said that if 

"Gender identity is the psychological self. What you feel."

then why can't a person feel like a unicorn or a cat or a donkey or whatever and identify as whatever? these situations exist are you not aware of that?

"And I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph."

ok lets take incels as an example, they feel for various reasons like all women are "whores" and as a result they have great disdain for women

but to reasonable people this is not reality we understand that they have warped perceptions and as a result their emotions do not reflect material reality

the fact that someone feels a certain way does not have any bearing on what reality actually is, its wholly irrelevant to this discussion



All of the recent gender debates really bother me for some reason. It almost seems like in recent years if a man wants to be a woman or vice versa, they can just say that that's what they are, and everyone is expected to address them as such. It's kind of selfish, and it seems like an excuse to start an argument.