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Forums - Politics Discussion - Muslim parents in UK protest school children's storybook featuring same gender parents

Pemalite said:
numberwang said:

Some scientific (empirical) facts to teach:

25% of gay men in America have had over 1000 sex partners. 43% of gay men have over 500 sex partners. 79% of homosexual men say over half of their sex partners are strangers.
http://www.amazon.com/Homosexualities-Study-Diversity-Among-Women/dp/0671251503
http://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Opportunity-Disparities-Affecting-Bisexual/dp/0195301536

Gay men are 60x more likely to have HIV than straight men. Another study: Gay men were about 200 times more likely than everyone else to be diagnosed with HIV.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3462414/
http://takimag.com/article/the_straight_dope_on_homosexuality_elizabeth_mccaw/print

One in eight gay men in London have HIV.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/11/18/13-of-gay-and-bisexual-men-in-london-living-with-hiv/

46% of male homosexuals report being molested as kids, as compared to only 7% of heterosexual men.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300

Your point is?

I am the first to admit I am happy to sleep around... I always wear protection however, I guess I am attractive, work hard and play hard. - Probably had about 30~ men in the last few weeks alone.

I know a few women who do the same thing and a few straight men as well.

But that doesn't mean that my actions should reflect the rest of the LGBTQI community, nor should they all be painted with the same brush, homosexuality is only an aspect of an individual, not what defines an individual.

Thats good,its your body and your happiness.

People that think sexual freedom is something negative might be religious,jealous,or scarred from dishonest relationships and are confused it relates to this.



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the-pi-guy said:
DrDoomz said:
Let me ask ppl here: Do you guys believe that homophobia itself (the thoughts and feelings, when not attached to any act) should be illegal?

No.  That doesn't make any sense.  

You can't legislate thoughts and feelings.  

I asked about should not could. Not the capability of it being done but if such a thing was possible, would you want it to be?



numberwang said:

Some scientific (empirical) facts to teach:

25% of gay men in America have had over 1000 sex partners. 43% of gay men have over 500 sex partners. 79% of homosexual men say over half of their sex partners are strangers.
http://www.amazon.com/Homosexualities-Study-Diversity-Among-Women/dp/0671251503
http://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Opportunity-Disparities-Affecting-Bisexual/dp/0195301536

All what this tells me is that being gay sounds like a party for life



fatslob-:O said:
Hahaha ...

I guess the "diversity loving" liberals and the "intolerance hating" liberals are going are going to have to decide what values truly are or aren't 'liberal' ...

Mixing freedom of speech and incompatible values between different minorities will only create tensions. Taking away freedom of speech will mean that differing minorities of incompatible social values will not be able to express 'intolerance' so I guess they don't appreciate "having diversity" after all ...

Decisions, decisions, decisions ... (gotta love these contradictions)

Ding Ding Ding Ding!

I'm sorry to inform you but life is full of contradictions.

This contradiction isn't even difficult to solve, alone reading though this thread will show you that most liberal or left minded people will choose one side, hint: it is not the one who promotes ancient values.

DrDoomz said:
the-pi-guy said:

No.  That doesn't make any sense.  

You can't legislate thoughts and feelings.  

I asked about should not could. Not the capability of it being done but if such a thing was possible, would you want it to be?

No I don't think it should be illegal.



DrDoomz said:
Let me ask ppl here: Do you guys believe that homophobia itself (the thoughts and feelings, when not attached to any act) should be illegal?

Big nope.

We would live in a crazy world if thoughts and feelings can be illegal.



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MrWayne said:
DrDoomz said:

I asked about should not could. Not the capability of it being done but if such a thing was possible, would you want it to be?

No I don't think it should be illegal.

That's good to hear.

My question had a lot to do with the reason behind the condemnation these parents seem to be suffering. 

A lot of people are condemning them behind their motivations/thoughts but not really their actions. Their actions might have homophobic roots but homophobia is something people are allowed to have unless they act on it and hurt/oppress others. Protesting over something you care about, however, is well within their rights (again, I condemn those who use threats/acts of violence).

To contrast, what they are fighting against is government being able to actively instill values they do not agree with onto their children and the loss of choice against such government acts. The ONLY time IMO that government is allowed to overrule the parents is when there is direct harm/risk on the kids themselves and others.

When compared to each other I find the latter far more distasteful than the former. Far far FAR more. Everyone should be scared about it regardless of where your politics lie.

It doesn't matter if we disagree with their values, they have the right to have it.

Last edited by DrDoomz - on 09 June 2019

DrDoomz said:
MrWayne said:

No I don't think it should be illegal.

That's good to hear.

My question had a lot to do with the reason behind the condemnation these parents seem to be suffering. 

A lot of people are condemning them behind their motivations/thoughts but not really their actions. Their actions might have homophobic roots but homophobia is something people are allowed to have unless they act on it and hurt/oppress others. Protesting over something you care about, however, is well within their rights (again, I condemn those who use threats/acts of violence).

To contrast, what they are fighting against is government being able to actively instill values they do not agree with onto their children and the loss of choice against such government acts. The ONLY time IMO that government is allowed to overrule the parents is when there is direct harm/risk on the kids themselves and others.

When compared to each other I find the latter far more distasteful than the former. Far far FAR more. Everyone should be scared about it regardless of where your politics lie.

It doesn't matter if we disagree with their values, they have the right to have it.

What value was trying to be instilled tat they disagree with? Because I think that teaching your children to be homophobic little shits is actually a direct harm to them when they have to live in a society that contains gay people. Just like teaching your child to be a racist little shit would be directly harmful to them when they have to live in a society where getting along with other races is a necessity. 



...

Torillian said:
DrDoomz said:

That's good to hear.

My question had a lot to do with the reason behind the condemnation these parents seem to be suffering. 

A lot of people are condemning them behind their motivations/thoughts but not really their actions. Their actions might have homophobic roots but homophobia is something people are allowed to have unless they act on it and hurt/oppress others. Protesting over something you care about, however, is well within their rights (again, I condemn those who use threats/acts of violence).

To contrast, what they are fighting against is government being able to actively instill values they do not agree with onto their children and the loss of choice against such government acts. The ONLY time IMO that government is allowed to overrule the parents is when there is direct harm/risk on the kids themselves and others.

When compared to each other I find the latter far more distasteful than the former. Far far FAR more. Everyone should be scared about it regardless of where your politics lie.

It doesn't matter if we disagree with their values, they have the right to have it.

What value was trying to be instilled tat they disagree with? Because I think that teaching your children to be homophobic little shits is actually a direct harm to them when they have to live in a society that contains gay people. Just like teaching your child to be a racist little shit would be directly harmful to them when they have to live in a society where getting along with other races is a necessity. 

No. It is a thought crime. Until the kids acts out on said thoughts and harm others then no direct harm is done. And even then you need to prove direct causality.  And even then, you need to prove that the causality is singular (and not nuanced and broader because there could be other direct environmental factors that can be attributed to it). But thoughts and feelings (w/c is what values are) are not crimes and do not do direct harm.

Unless you have studies that prove Islam cause considerable psychological harm on children (if so, I would love to see it. And even then, the harm must be well above what normal parents already inflict on their own kids)?

Until then, you want them to accept mandatory social engineering be applied to their kids and for the parents to simply bend over, shut up and take it.

And they are NOT asking the government/school to teach their kids and others' kids to be homophobic/racist shits. They are asking that they be given a CHOICE on when and if THEIR kids are taught values they disagree with. We need to not be overly dramatic/emotional in how we look at things and be purely objective here. <--- there is nothing wrong with this, despite us disagreeing with their possible motives.

Where is the tolerance here? Why is giving them choice suddenly such a negative? Why is choice so important when it comes to killing unborn kids but suddenly so unimportant when it comes to actually doing your best to raise these kids according to your values (<--not directed at you)?



DrDoomz said:
Torillian said:

What value was trying to be instilled tat they disagree with? Because I think that teaching your children to be homophobic little shits is actually a direct harm to them when they have to live in a society that contains gay people. Just like teaching your child to be a racist little shit would be directly harmful to them when they have to live in a society where getting along with other races is a necessity. 

No. It is a thought crime. Until the kids acts out on said thoughts and harm others then no direct harm is done. And even then you need to prove direct causality.  And even then, you need to prove that the causality is singular (and not nuanced and broader because there could be other direct environmental factors that can be attributed to it). But thoughts and feelings (w/c is what values are) are not crimes and do not do direct harm.

Unless you have studies that prove Islam cause considerable psychological harm on children (if so, I would love to see it. And even then, the harm must be well above what normal parents already inflict on their own kids)?

Until then, you want them to accept mandatory social engineering be applied to their kids and for the parents to simply bend over, shut up and take it.

And they are NOT asking the government/school to teach their kids and others' kids to be homophobic/racist shits. They are asking that they be given a CHOICE on when and if THEIR kids are taught values they disagree with. We need to not be overly dramatic/emotional in how we look at things and be purely objective here. <--- there is nothing wrong with this, despite us disagreeing with their possible motives.

Where is the tolerance here? Why is giving them choice suddenly such a negative?

Well then we have a disagreement in terms. I think that teaching your children values that make it harder for them to live in society as it is is harmful to not just them but the society in which they live. Both of these are concerns the government and society at large can and should have. 

So again I'm curious, what exactly was the school teaching that the parents took issue with and why? 



...

Torillian said:
DrDoomz said:

No. It is a thought crime. Until the kids acts out on said thoughts and harm others then no direct harm is done. And even then you need to prove direct causality.  And even then, you need to prove that the causality is singular (and not nuanced and broader because there could be other direct environmental factors that can be attributed to it). But thoughts and feelings (w/c is what values are) are not crimes and do not do direct harm.

Unless you have studies that prove Islam cause considerable psychological harm on children (if so, I would love to see it. And even then, the harm must be well above what normal parents already inflict on their own kids)?

Until then, you want them to accept mandatory social engineering be applied to their kids and for the parents to simply bend over, shut up and take it.

And they are NOT asking the government/school to teach their kids and others' kids to be homophobic/racist shits. They are asking that they be given a CHOICE on when and if THEIR kids are taught values they disagree with. We need to not be overly dramatic/emotional in how we look at things and be purely objective here. <--- there is nothing wrong with this, despite us disagreeing with their possible motives.

Where is the tolerance here? Why is giving them choice suddenly such a negative?

Well then we have a disagreement in terms. I think that teaching your children values that make it harder for them to live in society as it is is harmful to not just them but the society in which they live. Both of these are concerns the government and society at large can and should have. 

So again I'm curious, what exactly was the school teaching that the parents took issue with and why? 

Your logic is very slippery-slope-fallacy-ish and very subjective as well as highly overdramaticizing what the parents are trying to do here. Society doesn't get to decide how a person thinks. And they can only control what one does for as long as it is directly harmful to others.

At no point did they ask the school to teach homophobic-shittiness to the kids.

Well, whether or not we agree on the content of the lessons (personally, I disagree with the parents and find the lesson to be harmless. But that is not the point), the parents themselves don't want it taught to their kids, they should be allowed to opt out.