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Forums - Politics Discussion - Muslim parents in UK protest school children's storybook featuring same gender parents

SpokenTruth said:
TheBird said:
Been happening over in Toronto for about a year now. 1). And children shouldn't learn sex ed at such a young age, it should only be in middle school when their bodies start to change, so everything they are taught makes sense, and is relevant.
2). Teaching a 5 year old about gay people will only confuse em and scare them. They should be playing Minecraft (Not Fortnite), learning social skills & creativity. That is where the school system fails, not enough Minecraft.

1). Out of curiosity, why did you reply without actually watching the video? It doesn't discuss sex education at all.

2). Confuse and scare them? What do you base that conclusion from?  It might surprise you that 5 year olds are incredibly tolerant, welcoming, and accepting of such concepts. Being confused and scared seems to be a reflection of what they see from their own parents on the topic.  It confuses and scares mommy and daddy, so now I'm confused and scared too. If you show compassion and understanding, they will too.

I'll repost something I wrote earlier.  I'd like your take on it.

5 year old: Daddy, what are those 2 people doing?
Dad: Getting married.
5 year old: Why?
Dad: Because they love each other.
5 year old: Oh. Ok.

Sorry to burst your bubble but child have a lot of prejudice and evil on them. They usually harm much more and harder than adults.

vivster said:
DonFerrari said:

And is even less of a plaything for teachers, government or any other group besides the parents.

I'd rather let someone educated play with my kid than the dumbest people on earth.

By dumbest people on earth you mean yourself? Since you are saying against parent teaching versus government.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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DonFerrari said:
SpokenTruth said:

1). Out of curiosity, why did you reply without actually watching the video? It doesn't discuss sex education at all.

2). Confuse and scare them? What do you base that conclusion from?  It might surprise you that 5 year olds are incredibly tolerant, welcoming, and accepting of such concepts. Being confused and scared seems to be a reflection of what they see from their own parents on the topic.  It confuses and scares mommy and daddy, so now I'm confused and scared too. If you show compassion and understanding, they will too.

I'll repost something I wrote earlier.  I'd like your take on it.

5 year old: Daddy, what are those 2 people doing?
Dad: Getting married.
5 year old: Why?
Dad: Because they love each other.
5 year old: Oh. Ok.

Sorry to burst your bubble but child have a lot of prejudice and evil on them. They usually harm much more and harder than adults.

vivster said:

I'd rather let someone educated play with my kid than the dumbest people on earth.

By dumbest people on earth you mean yourself? Since you are saying against parent teaching versus government.

The government is certainly smarter than the average parent. Because they're backed by science while parents are backed by anti-vax facebook groups.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
DonFerrari said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but child have a lot of prejudice and evil on them. They usually harm much more and harder than adults.

By dumbest people on earth you mean yourself? Since you are saying against parent teaching versus government.

The government is certainly smarter than the average parent. Because they're backed by science while parents are backed by anti-vax facebook groups.

Sorry, but considering private companies are much better managed than government ones I would say individual people are more qualified than government



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Pemalite said:
Machiavellian said: 

Lol, if you believe just saying people love each other and leave it at that then you have no experience in this area. 

Bold assertion. Do you have any evidence to backup said claim that I lack experience?

Well lets put it this way, from my experience just telling a child someone loves each other isn't the end of the discussion as you stated.  That is only the beginning and from there you have to define exactly what love is.  Is it love between 2 friends, a family member like sister and brother or the love between a mom and dad.  You made the statement that all you need to say they love each other and that's it, the child is satisfied with the answer and never want the details or the context.

Machiavellian said:

That's the simplistic logic people state when they have not had this conversation multiple times.  Once a child curiosity is engaged within a subject they will constantly talk about it.  They will bring the subject up multiple times and during the oddest of places and events.  If you have the talk about how children are brought into the world then you have to talk about Dad and Dad.  There is no tactful way around these questions because you need to be honest with the child not sugar coat it with BS.

What you are promoting is the slippery slope argument which is a logical fallacy, that means we can discard your argument.

The fact of the matter is.. For decades parents have used me as an example to teach their children about Gays and Lesbians... Because... Well... Who is more qualified than someone who is Gay and lives it?

Fact of the matter is, when parents have told their children that I am a gay man, it hasn't escalated from there. - Sometimes there are some questions, but you don't need to get into the nitty-gritty details... You just say "That is how they are". - If you won't get into the nitty gritty details when explaining heterosexual relationship dynamics, why would you with a homosexual one?

Not sure what you mean.  I am stating you cannot leave out context or just leave gaps in the subject hoping the the child will not come back for more answers or for that matter not come back at all but get their info from somewhere else.  There is no slippery slope in my argument because I am stating that once you open up a topic you have to be prepared to talk about everything, not just the parts you feel you can handle.  Its great that you are a person some parents can come to to open up the subject but are you the person they come back to to fill in the gaps.  Do you believe that just saying we love each other the child will not seek context to what that means.  At the end of the day, most parents do not have you for context in these talks but instead rely on their own experience and what they either know or think they know or how they feel about the subject.  Its a subject that will constantly come back as the child gets more info on the topic.

Machiavellian said:

So I will say again, this book doesn't do enough and it leaves gaps that need to be filled in by either parents or someone else.  What it will not do is bring any more education to the subject for a 5 year old besides a lot of questions.

Parents should take some responsibility in raising their children anyway.

And this makes a hell of a difference to the education of children and LGBT issues, I have seen how society has changed in regards to these issues over the decades and things have certainly improved for the better at all levels.

Raising their children in what way because as a parent, you deal with a thousand things you need to do to raise your child.  What exactly does that mean.  What this does is at this early age is force a conversation on the topic earlier then I believe the LGBT community would want.  Instead of teaching a child early about different relationships it brings up the conversation so bias can be introduced at an early age and enforced before the child has a chance to develop their own opinions.  

The majority of parents would never even have such conversations with their kids and for most they would see nothing wrong or different if they see Dad and Dad or Mom and Mom because there is no bias within a child so young.  What this does is now the child will look for context to what is taught in school and they will ask their parents to fill the gap.  If you are ok that the happy path will not always be the result then so be it but I do not believe this closes the gap.  I believe this opens the door for bias and indoctrination during the very early development stage of a child and will not accomplish the learning you wish for but instead give parents who do not look favorable towards the LGBT community to instill their bias to the child.









DonFerrari said:
vivster said:

The government is certainly smarter than the average parent. Because they're backed by science while parents are backed by anti-vax facebook groups.

Sorry, but considering private companies are much better managed than government ones I would say individual people are more qualified than government

No offense, but there is a big difference between the Brazilian government and the British government, or most other western European governments. The British government is fucking stupid lately with how they handle the Brexit (or don't handle, more like), but at least they're not totally corrupt like Brazil, sadly.



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Chrizum said:
DonFerrari said:

Sorry, but considering private companies are much better managed than government ones I would say individual people are more qualified than government

No offense, but there is a big difference between the Brazilian government and the British government, or most other western European governments. The British government is fucking stupid lately with how they handle the Brexit (or don't handle, more like), but at least they're not totally corrupt like Brazil, sadly.

I take no offense in acknowledging that the Brazilian politicians are corrupt.

But I take offense in supposing government is a better management than private companies. Almost all public services are less efficient or more expensive (when you look at the costs not the price) than private ones, also all but one monopoly are either government service or born from government intervention.

https://mises.org/wire/many-ways-governments-create-monopolies

http://www.aei.org/publication/milton-friedman-identifies-the-biggest-enemy-of-the-free-market-system-the-business-community/



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:

I take no offense in acknowledging that the Brazilian politicians are corrupt.

But I take offense in supposing government is a better management than private companies. Almost all public services are less efficient or more expensive (when you look at the costs not the price) than private ones, also all but one monopoly are either government service or born from government intervention.

https://mises.org/wire/many-ways-governments-create-monopolies

http://www.aei.org/publication/milton-friedman-identifies-the-biggest-enemy-of-the-free-market-system-the-business-community/

What is the relevance of this argument? The point of contention was that the educational programs of the government (i.e. public schools) are much more competent than what the average parents can provide. Which is true, so the big question is why you take issue with that.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Gamers Club

DonFerrari said:
SpokenTruth said:

1). Out of curiosity, why did you reply without actually watching the video? It doesn't discuss sex education at all.

2). Confuse and scare them? What do you base that conclusion from?  It might surprise you that 5 year olds are incredibly tolerant, welcoming, and accepting of such concepts. Being confused and scared seems to be a reflection of what they see from their own parents on the topic.  It confuses and scares mommy and daddy, so now I'm confused and scared too. If you show compassion and understanding, they will too.

I'll repost something I wrote earlier.  I'd like your take on it.

5 year old: Daddy, what are those 2 people doing?
Dad: Getting married.
5 year old: Why?
Dad: Because they love each other.
5 year old: Oh. Ok.

Sorry to burst your bubble but child have a lot of prejudice and evil on them. They usually harm much more and harder than adults.

You don't have to apologize for you didn't burst anything.

I have two kids, my wife is a pre-K teacher and we both have Early Childhood Education degrees. Where do you think children learn their prejudices from?  Hate against gay people is not an innate emotion for a 5 year old.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

RolStoppable said:
DonFerrari said:

I take no offense in acknowledging that the Brazilian politicians are corrupt.

But I take offense in supposing government is a better management than private companies. Almost all public services are less efficient or more expensive (when you look at the costs not the price) than private ones, also all but one monopoly are either government service or born from government intervention.

https://mises.org/wire/many-ways-governments-create-monopolies

http://www.aei.org/publication/milton-friedman-identifies-the-biggest-enemy-of-the-free-market-system-the-business-community/

What is the relevance of this argument? The point of contention was that the educational programs of the government (i.e. public schools) are much more competent than what the average parents can provide. Which is true, so the big question is why you take issue with that.

The relevance is on the parents having nothing to say because government knows better.

SpokenTruth said:
DonFerrari said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but child have a lot of prejudice and evil on them. They usually harm much more and harder than adults.

You don't have to apologize for you didn't burst anything.

I have two kids, my wife is a pre-K teacher and we both have Early Childhood Education degrees. Where do you think children learn their prejudices from?  Hate against gay people is not an innate emotion for a 5 year old.

That may be why child have preferences even before age of being influenced to have any prejudice right?

Or the fact that prejudice is innate to human beings, not something that is teached.

Hate against gay people certainly isn't innate, but learning about gay and that is different and mocking other child with it is very innate children behavior.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Machiavellian said:

Well lets put it this way, from my experience just telling a child someone loves each other isn't the end of the discussion as you stated.  That is only the beginning and from there you have to define exactly what love is.  Is it love between 2 friends, a family member like sister and brother or the love between a mom and dad.  You made the statement that all you need to say they love each other and that's it, the child is satisfied with the answer and never want the details or the context.

You are an Adult... Make it the end of a discussion. Children don't get to control or dictate terms to you.

You are delving into slippery slope arguments, which is a logical fallacy, you need to recognize that and recognize that your line of thinking is highly erroneous due to that very fact.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/162/Slippery-Slopehttps://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

The fact of the matter is... Whenever someone has used me as an example of teaching their children about Homosexuality, they left it as "They love each other". - The kids were satisfied with that answer.

Machiavellian said:

Not sure what you mean.  I am stating you cannot leave out context or just leave gaps in the subject hoping the the child will not come back for more answers or for that matter not come back at all but get their info from somewhere else.  There is no slippery slope in my argument because I am stating that once you open up a topic you have to be prepared to talk about everything, not just the parts you feel you can handle.  Its great that you are a person some parents can come to to open up the subject but are you the person they come back to to fill in the gaps.  Do you believe that just saying we love each other the child will not seek context to what that means.  At the end of the day, most parents do not have you for context in these talks but instead rely on their own experience and what they either know or think they know or how they feel about the subject.  Its a subject that will constantly come back as the child gets more info on the topic.

If you think that talking about two adults showing love and affection to children is suddenly going to turn into a discussion about how individuals fuck each other.. Then you are probably going about it the wrong way, kids don't need to know details like how I went and had sex with 7 different guys at a gay sauna with my partner last weekend... But telling them I love my partner as I hug him after dealing with casualties at a car accident is all that is needed.

It is literally no different talking to a child about how their mum and dad loves each other, there is no further discussion that delves into questionable aspects like you so eloquently describe, it just doesn't happen... It's baseless fear mongering.

If the parents don't have appropriate experience, information or context like you say... Then that just places a larger emphasis on the need of teaching kids about LGBTQI issues in the curriculum does it not? You said it yourself that parents are failing in this area.

Machiavellian said:

Raising their children in what way because as a parent, you deal with a thousand things you need to do to raise your child.  What exactly does that mean.  What this does is at this early age is force a conversation on the topic earlier then I believe the LGBT community would want.  Instead of teaching a child early about different relationships it brings up the conversation so bias can be introduced at an early age and enforced before the child has a chance to develop their own opinions.  

The majority of parents would never even have such conversations with their kids and for most they would see nothing wrong or different if they see Dad and Dad or Mom and Mom because there is no bias within a child so young.  What this does is now the child will look for context to what is taught in school and they will ask their parents to fill the gap.  If you are ok that the happy path will not always be the result then so be it but I do not believe this closes the gap.  I believe this opens the door for bias and indoctrination during the very early development stage of a child and will not accomplish the learning you wish for but instead give parents who do not look favorable towards the LGBT community to instill their bias to the child.

 

LGBT people are here to stay, they are in the community. Kids are going to see two men holding hands, showing affection and ask questions... Telling a child that it's because those two people love each other isn't the end of the world.

Kids understand the concept of love, apparently than allot of Adults... It's not some dirty, unthinkable topic that should be avoided, LGBT people are part of the real world, they have always existed, will always exist and it's time that some people embraced that very fact and got over it.

As for indoctrination... I think you should be a little more concerned about religion on that front than education on LGBT issues/culture. I mean.. Shit.

DonFerrari said:

Well I would say where we would disagree is that I think school is to teach, family is to educate (and from what you have said in other thread I think, and I may be wrong but perhaps your family failed you on this). So respecting people, LGBT included, is part of family obligation and if a family wants to teach biggotry that unfortunatelly is their right.

Because in the end the power you give to the government is the power you lose yourself. In this situation they are doing something that most people would say is the right thing, but they could very well be doing just the opposite (as happened in the past with government persecuting people based on who they were). And one thing that is very hard to do is take away power from the government, so once it grows to a size it almost never reduce back.

And sure I agree with you that it will be great when it is a time where we don't need to teach anyone to respect the basic rights of LGBT people, including the right to marry and to be a blood donor if they so wish and won't harm another person (same standard a hetero person would be held) among others.

I think school is there to teach and educate... Same with family. Children should be taught from all angles in life not just specific avenues.

My family is a basket of cats that I really won't get into...

I guess things are different here government wise where such things aren't an issue.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 04 June 2019