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Forums - Politics Discussion - Muslim parents in UK protest school children's storybook featuring same gender parents

MrWayne said:
DrDoomz said:

People can agree on the concept (educating children to be good citizens, teaching them to see the importance of LGBTQ issues) but disagree on the methods (teaching it to 5 year olds).

They teaching 5 year olds that some men love other men or that some kids have two moms. What is wrong with that? It's just a factual description of our reality.

Some parents disagree about the timing of the topic being brought up and feel uncomfortable dealing with having to answer these kinds of questions and reconciling it with their beliefs. I, personally, do not agree with this (as I have, personally taught my daughter about this as soon as she as able to comprehend the issue). Some parents do not agree and I respect their right to protest about and disagree with it. I do not condemn them for their beliefs and also acknowledge that many may have issues as benign as the timing of it.

The point is that there are more nuances to it than Muslim vs LGBTQ and we should all be respectful of other ppl's beliefs and respect their right to exercise their disagreement with what we believe in. That is, after all, what tolerance is all about.

Last edited by DrDoomz - on 03 June 2019

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MrWayne said:
DrDoomz said:

People can agree on the concept (educating children to be good citizens, teaching them to see the importance of LGBTQ issues) but disagree on the methods (teaching it to 5 year olds).

They teaching 5 year olds that some men love other men or that some kids have two moms. What is wrong with that? It's just a factual description of our reality.

But why placate an extreme minority at the cost of the rights of the majority? There's a huge chance a kid may not even witness a gay couple until they are much older, considering they make up less than 10% of the population. The fact that people don't just allow this to happen naturally, with children seeing one and being curious enough to ask their parents about it, just screams indoctrination. Get to the kids before the parents do so we can make them into good brothers and sisters for our Utopia dream.

Next we'll have kids and neighbors start telling on mom and dad when they don't meet Big Brother's expectations and they can go to jail or lose their kids. Oh wait...That kinda stuff is already happening.



thismeintiel said:
MrWayne said:

They teaching 5 year olds that some men love other men or that some kids have two moms. What is wrong with that? It's just a factual description of our reality.

But why placate an extreme minority at the cost of the rights of the majority? There's a huge chance a kid may not even witness a gay couple until they are much older, considering they make up less than 10% of the population. The fact that people don't just allow this to happen naturally, with children seeing one and being curious enough to ask their parents about it, just screams indoctrination. Get to the kids before the parents do so we can make them into good brothers and sisters for our Utopia dream.

Next we'll have kids and neighbors start telling on mom and dad when they don't meet Big Brother's expectations and they can go to jail or lose their kids. Oh wait...That kinda stuff is already happening.

What right of the majority is getting violated in this instance? I don't see any violation of rights or do you think a mandatory education system violates your rights?

The overall purpose of the program is to familiarize children with different kinds of people who are unfamiliar to them.



DrDoomz said:
MrWayne said:

They teaching 5 year olds that some men love other men or that some kids have two moms. What is wrong with that? It's just a factual description of our reality.

Some parents disagree about the timing of the topic being brought up and feel uncomfortable dealing with having to answer these kinds of questions and reconciling it with their beliefs. I, personally, do not agree with this (as I have, personally taught my daughter about this as soon as she as able to comprehend the issue). Some parents do not agree and I respect their right to protest about and disagree with it. I do not condemn them for their beliefs and also acknowledge that many may have issues as benign as the timing of it.

The point is that there are more nuances to it than Muslim vs LGBTQ and we should all be respectful of other ppl's beliefs and respect their right to exercise their disagreement with what we believe in. That is, after all, what tolerance is all about.

Of Course there is more nuances to it than Muslim vs LGBTQ, many muslims do not protest and many of those who protest are probably ill informed on what is actually educated in these schools, I saw a couple reports about this and many protesters thought that they children learn things about sex which is factually not true.

This school program was made to encourage tolerance and the protesters are the ones who are intolerant, they don't want that their children learn about other worldviews. If we're tolerant towards the intolerant we will lose all tolerance at some point.



MrWayne said:
DrDoomz said:

Some parents disagree about the timing of the topic being brought up and feel uncomfortable dealing with having to answer these kinds of questions and reconciling it with their beliefs. I, personally, do not agree with this (as I have, personally taught my daughter about this as soon as she as able to comprehend the issue). Some parents do not agree and I respect their right to protest about and disagree with it. I do not condemn them for their beliefs and also acknowledge that many may have issues as benign as the timing of it.

The point is that there are more nuances to it than Muslim vs LGBTQ and we should all be respectful of other ppl's beliefs and respect their right to exercise their disagreement with what we believe in. That is, after all, what tolerance is all about.

Of Course there is more nuances to it than Muslim vs LGBTQ, many muslims do not protest and many of those who protest are probably ill informed on what is actually educated in these schools, I saw a couple reports about this and many protesters thought that they children learn things about sex which is factually not true.

This school program was made to encourage tolerance and the protesters are the ones who are intolerant, they don't want that their children learn about other worldviews. If we're tolerant towards the intolerant we will lose all tolerance at some point.

And many are not ill informed and know exactly what they are protesting about. Generalizations get us nowhere. Whether they are ill informed or not is beside the point. The fact that they are protesting what they do not agree with is a good thing. It opens up channels of communication where they can air their grievances with the people in charge (at the end of the video, it is mentioned that they have begun a dialogue with the school admin). Thus those who are ill informed can get informed and can then decide if they can stand with what the school is doing or not and ask for compromises from the school to make whatever is happening more acceptable to them. It is good because instead of staying at home and impotently raging at the system, they are trying to do something about it (if they are wrong, then the school can enlighten them during said dialogue) that does not involve violence or destruction of property (though, unfortunately, there has been threats of violence/harassment but that is to be expected with something as controversial as this).

In the end, this was a good thing (unless it escalates). I do not get why you are so against it. If you want to change ppl's minds, a dialogue is needed. And the thing about the law is that it is dependent on the will of the people and who they vote for into office. If enough ppl disagree with what the school and what the law is requiring them to do then it is a good thing that these things get to be voiced. If they are indeed the silent intolerant minority then at least they were heard and they simply practiced their rights to have their voices heard.

I do not see the negative here.



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MrWayne said:
thismeintiel said:

But why placate an extreme minority at the cost of the rights of the majority? There's a huge chance a kid may not even witness a gay couple until they are much older, considering they make up less than 10% of the population. The fact that people don't just allow this to happen naturally, with children seeing one and being curious enough to ask their parents about it, just screams indoctrination. Get to the kids before the parents do so we can make them into good brothers and sisters for our Utopia dream.

Next we'll have kids and neighbors start telling on mom and dad when they don't meet Big Brother's expectations and they can go to jail or lose their kids. Oh wait...That kinda stuff is already happening.

What right of the majority is getting violated in this instance? I don't see any violation of rights or do you think a mandatory education system violates your rights?

The overall purpose of the program is to familiarize children with different kinds of people who are unfamiliar to them.

Yes, a mandatory education violates your rights. As does anything the government mandates you do, but that's a different discussion for a different day. It's a parent's right to address these topics in a way, and when, they choose to.  The way it is being done is not in a natural way. It is obvious indoctrination from the PC crowd.

The next logical step is taking kids away from parents who don't see the same way or don't like how the schools are teaching kids this early. Kind of like what happened just a few years ago when foster kids were taken away from parents just because they were UKIP members.



Hiku said:
DrDoomz said:

Some parents disagree about the timing of the topic being brought up and feel uncomfortable dealing with having to answer these kinds of questions and reconciling it with their beliefs. I, personally, do not agree with this (as I have, personally taught my daughter about this as soon as she as able to comprehend the issue). Some parents do not agree and I respect their right to protest about and disagree with it. I do not condemn them for their beliefs and also acknowledge that many may have issues as benign as the timing of it.

The point is that there are more nuances to it than Muslim vs LGBTQ and we should all be respectful of other ppl's beliefs and respect their right to exercise their disagreement with what we believe in. That is, after all, what tolerance is all about.

From the reasoning we heard in the video, they did not like this because they think LGBT is wrong, and some would presumably teach their children this when they grow up.

What this school is doing though is not explaining what is right or wrong to these kids, or how they should feel about these things they don't know yet, but rather that families like this do exist, and that these families love each other, like their family loves them.

While the goal of this is tolerance, I think it's more fair to let children become aware of something before they are told how to feel about something. If your first exposure to something at a young age is "Ok, there's this thing called *****. Let me tell you why I think it's bad/good." then your opinion will more easily able influenced by whoever tells you that.

That's not my point, though. My point is that at least they voiced their concerns via an acceptable medium (the ones that did not resort to threats of violence anyway) that opens dialogue and compromise between both sides.

We might not agree with them but they are doing the right thing relative to their beliefs (w/c we don't agree with). The alternative is for them to seethe and impotently rage at the system until a breaking point is reached or overcompensate by doubly over-stressing their beliefs at home (to the detriment of the kids) and we all can agree that nothing good comes from that.

As a parent, I get why they feel strongly about being able to raise their kids in accordance to their values. They are not values I necessarily agree with but the level of urgency to at least have some control over the values being imparted to my kids is a very strong paternal need. IF schools decided to teach my child about the benefits of fossil fuel (a fairly benign topic as well), then I will be there protesting as well regardless of what the law says.



Hiku said:
DrDoomz said:

That's not my point, though. My point is that at least they voiced their concerns via an acceptable medium (the ones that did not resort to threats of violence anyway) that opens dialogue and compromise between both sides.

We might not agree with them but they are doing the right thing relative to their beliefs (w/c we don't agree with). The alternative is for them to seethe and impotently rage at the system until a breaking point is reached or overcompensate by doubly over-stressing their beliefs at home (to the detriment of the kids) and we all can agree that nothing good comes from that.

As a parent, I get why they feel strongly about being able to raise their kids in accordance to their values. They are not values I necessarily agree with but the level of urgency to at least have some control over the values being imparted to my kids is a very strong paternal need. IF schools decided to teach my child about the benefits of fossil fuel (a fairly benign topic as well), then I will be there protesting as well regardless of what the law says.

Yeah, I agree that they should be able to voice their opinions. (Maybe screaming in megaphones next to 5 year olds isn't the best approach though.)

But I also think that the idea of letting your children make up their own minds about things (as much as possible at least) is important, and should be to everyone. Just exposing them to the facts first, that things exist, is an important first step.
But even for the parents who just want their kids to believe what they do, they'll still get the first chance to indoctrinate their beliefs unto their children. None of them are denying that same sex couples exist or that they love their children. (I assume...)

But that's the thing though. In order for the school to achieve what it is trying to do, it needs to take the concerns of the parents into consideration. Not force the issue in direct conflict with the wishes of the parents. If the school was located in a dominantly Muslim community, the school should have been aware of this and should have known about how the parents would react. This was insensitive of them. I guess I'm remembering the lessons from university about change management: You cannot force change in a direct conflict with the wishes of the many without causing more harm than good. And there are many ways you can limit this harm, some of the most effective being: allowing participation in the decision and dialogue.

And my biggest issue with the whole thing is: Why weren't the parents informed beforehand about this and why are they not allowed to opt out?



Been happening over in Toronto for about a year now. And children shouldn't learn sex ed at such a young age, it should only be in middle school when their bodies start to change, so everything they are taught makes sense, and is relevant.
Teaching a 5 year old about gay people will only confuse em and scare them. They should be playing Minecraft (Not Fortnite), learning social skills & creativity. That is where the school system fails, not enough Minecraft.



This is why people don't want religion in school. It doesn't belong there.
If you want your kid to only see what you wish, take them out of the school and teach them yourself.
You don't get to tell everyone else what their kids can't and can't see.
You just don't have the right to and I am blown away that people can't see that.