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In defence of piracy

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mZuzek said:
Baalzamon said:
You are justifying theft based on potential benefit down the road to the company. It is still...theft.

If I steal a car, I'm driving it down the road (thus advertising it), and heck, may even like it enough that I eventually buy more cars of that brand. But that doesn't mean I didn't still steal the original car.

I've heard the argument a million times, and while I personally don't report anybody who is doing this (it just isn't worth my time), stop lying to yourself that you aren't still stealing.

The same could be said about lots of rules. One could murder somebody they deem a bad person, and think they are overall helping society as a result. It is still murder.

Yeah, except for how it's nothing like theft or murder at all. When you steal a car, you took that car away from someone else. If you killed someone, you took that person's life. Piracy is like if you made a copy of someone's car and then drove it down the road, you didn't do anything harmful to that car's owner, only to the companies making cars which are not going to benefit from your money. Since there's no real artistic value in car manufacturing, it being very much just a business, I think most people wouldn't actually find anything wrong with that. Copy a car you like, drive it everywhere, have fun. What's not to love? (lol)

Sure, there are laws and piracy isn't allowed by them. That's fine. Good, even. If there were no laws against piracy, piracy would be all there is and capitalism would break in five seconds. But not everything that's illegal is 100% wrong, morally or socially. Piracy can be of benefit to the artists behind stuff, unlike theft or murder.

sethnintendo said:
I thought it was because you are from Brazil and video games as expensive as fuck there.

And here you have a good example. Yeah, piracy has always been rampant in Brazil because of how expensive games are, and especially because of how bad our economy is (and also because there's a generally shit mentality about mostly everyone). You know what consoles thrived here, that absolutely everyone had? PS2, and DS. Those are the best-selling consoles in history, and it's because of piracy, it's because everyone in 3rd world countries could afford games for them. Yeah, that's bad for the software and their developers, but the reality is that piracy was a big reason why the best-selling consoles were the best-selling consoles.

So what you are saying is...because something isn't physical, it doesn't equate to the same type of theft. Lets use an extreme example. Company spends $100M on a game. They proceed to get 0 sales. They did have 10 million people however, who copied the game. It didn't actually cost the company any money each time somebody copied the game, so there is nothing wrong with it. While an extreme example, it illustrates how regardless of it being a digital asset, it DOES still certainly cost the company money. If I put time and effort into making something, I absolutely don't want anybody to enjoy that for free just because they have some bogus excuse that it's too expensive for them or it didn't cost me anything anyways.

What is it that makes you feel you are entitled to that game? Why do you feel such an urge to assure others that this is ok? It is theft, plain and simple. I don't quite frankly care how much video games cost in any one region, if they aren't within your budget...then you shouldn't be playing video games.

I would absolutely love to buy about 50 games per year, but unfortunately don't make remotely close to enough money for that, therefore I proceed to buy 1-2.

That being said, I think it really comes down to, regardless of whether somebody would or wouldn't have bought an item, I don't think that is what qualifies something as theft. Many thieves would never have bought an item, but they take it so they can gain from it (and being able to play a game you otherwise couldn't play is certainly gaining).



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

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Baalzamon said:

What is it that makes you feel you are entitled to that game? Why do you feel such an urge to assure others that this is ok? It is theft, plain and simple. I don't quite frankly care how much video games cost in any one region, if they aren't within your budget...then you shouldn't be playing video games.

Yeah, but that's the thing... if someone can't afford a game, they won't buy it. At that point, what difference does it make whether they play it ilegally or don't? The only difference it makes is to the enjoyment of that particular person, and nothing else. You can say "oh but that person would've otherwise bought the game when they had the money", and well, that's not always true. There's loads of people who wouldn't buy the game anyway... it's not about feeling "entitled" to play it, it's just about having a good time. I'm not saying piracy is okay, of course it's not. There's a lot wrong with it. But there are good things that can come from it, too.

Of course, in your extreme example, no good would come out of it, but reality isn't extreme.



mZuzek said:
Baalzamon said:

What is it that makes you feel you are entitled to that game? Why do you feel such an urge to assure others that this is ok? It is theft, plain and simple. I don't quite frankly care how much video games cost in any one region, if they aren't within your budget...then you shouldn't be playing video games.

Yeah, but that's the thing... if someone can't afford a game, they won't buy it. At that point, what difference does it make whether they play it ilegally or don't? The only difference it makes is to the enjoyment of that particular person, and nothing else. You can say "oh but that person would've otherwise bought the game when they had the money", and well, that's not always true. There's loads of people who wouldn't buy the game anyway... it's not about feeling "entitled" to play it, it's just about having a good time. I'm not saying piracy is okay, of course it's not. There's a lot wrong with it. But there are good things that can come from it, too.

Of course, in your extreme example, no good would come out of it, but reality isn't extreme.

You're piracy enabling attitude legit makes me laugh in embarrassment. I literally just chuckled out loud...

Once again...

Playing video games is a privilege, not a right. Of course it makes a difference BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T F***ING BUY IT! Holy shit dude... I'm gonna go out on a limb here and safely guess that you pirated alot of shit in your time.



mZuzek said:
Baalzamon said:

What is it that makes you feel you are entitled to that game? Why do you feel such an urge to assure others that this is ok? It is theft, plain and simple. I don't quite frankly care how much video games cost in any one region, if they aren't within your budget...then you shouldn't be playing video games.

Yeah, but that's the thing... if someone can't afford a game, they won't buy it. At that point, what difference does it make whether they play it ilegally or don't? The only difference it makes is to the enjoyment of that particular person, and nothing else. You can say "oh but that person would've otherwise bought the game when they had the money", and well, that's not always true. There's loads of people who wouldn't buy the game anyway... it's not about feeling "entitled" to play it, it's just about having a good time. I'm not saying piracy is okay, of course it's not. There's a lot wrong with it. But there are good things that can come from it, too.

Of course, in your extreme example, no good would come out of it, but reality isn't extreme.

You're totally right.

If one person makes $40,000 a year and can afford 5 games, and another person makes $30,000 a year and cannot afford any games, the ONLY solution to this is the $30,000 person should be able to illegally download these games and still play them. After all, what difference does it make.

It is their right in life to live the exact same lifestyle (including which video games are available to them) as the person who makes more money than them.

While society has deemed certain things a right for all people to enjoy (we certainly strive to assist the poor so they can afford food, housing, healthcare, but are by no means perfect in this venture). But I believe the mass majority of people would say we have no business including video games in these buckets.

The difference it makes it is nullifies a giant chunk of how the economy runs, which is that people who make more money can buy more things (obviously there are lots of variables to this). It also is completely and totally unfair to people like myself who actually save up money for every single game that I purchase. Meanwhile, you just go and download the game, and never had to think twice about saving for it.

I completely and totally understand being jealous of those who make more and have more than you'll ever have. I've seen those people around me my entire life, and occasionally had thoughts that it just doesn't seem fair.

What I won't deal with though, is somebody trying to tell me that their theft doesn't make a difference. It absolutely steals from the creator of the game who isn't being compensated in any way for that copy of the game. It absolutely is unfair to the people who choose not to break the law and have to save up for the games that they buy.

Go on pirating your games, but for crying out loud, stop saying it has no impact on anybody else.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Baalzamon said:
mZuzek said:

Yeah, but that's the thing... if someone can't afford a game, they won't buy it. At that point, what difference does it make whether they play it ilegally or don't? The only difference it makes is to the enjoyment of that particular person, and nothing else. You can say "oh but that person would've otherwise bought the game when they had the money", and well, that's not always true. There's loads of people who wouldn't buy the game anyway... it's not about feeling "entitled" to play it, it's just about having a good time. I'm not saying piracy is okay, of course it's not. There's a lot wrong with it. But there are good things that can come from it, too.

Of course, in your extreme example, no good would come out of it, but reality isn't extreme.

You're totally right.

If one person makes $40,000 a year and can afford 5 games, and another person makes $30,000 a year and cannot afford any games, the ONLY solution to this is the $30,000 person should be able to illegally download these games and still play them. After all, what difference does it make.

It is their right in life to live the exact same lifestyle (including which video games are available to them) as the person who makes more money than them.

While society has deemed certain things a right for all people to enjoy (we certainly strive to assist the poor so they can afford food, housing, healthcare, but are by no means perfect in this venture). But I believe the mass majority of people would say we have no business including video games in these buckets.

The difference it makes it is nullifies a giant chunk of how the economy runs, which is that people who make more money can buy more things (obviously there are lots of variables to this). It also is completely and totally unfair to people like myself who actually save up money for every single game that I purchase. Meanwhile, you just go and download the game, and never had to think twice about saving for it.

I completely and totally understand being jealous of those who make more and have more than you'll ever have. I've seen those people around me my entire life, and occasionally had thoughts that it just doesn't seem fair.

What I won't deal with though, is somebody trying to tell me that their theft doesn't make a difference. It absolutely steals from the creator of the game who isn't being compensated in any way for that copy of the game. It absolutely is unfair to the people who choose not to break the law and have to save up for the games that they buy.

Go on pirating your games, but for crying out loud, stop saying it has no impact on anybody else.

If you take a game like say.... GTAV and via illegal means it is torrented to an alien planet of 50 billion Klingons, and they all pass it around and play it.... How does that impact the game creator or you?

Even in your scenario of "person A has the money to pay for the item" "Person B does not" Person B never has money... he has the same amount of money as a planet full of billions of Aliens, there is no magic $60s that are in their pockets that are somehow not going into Activisions pocket when they play it, I'll put it like this man... I've worked with and around a lot of people who are on the line of not having anything, and the choices some people have is either sit back and play a few games in their spare time or spend it on things like drink/drugs and honestly I've directed people towards things like a R4 card for the Nintendo DS as a way that they could spend their spare time doing something that isn't constructive but at least would be less harmful than the alternative, and this isn't people who don't have jobs I'm talking about people who either have familys or dependants who consume all or most of their income so yeah, don't jump on the "well those losers should go get a job rather than playing games" There are a lot of people whos savings go to things like medical issues or yeah... the care of loved ones in their families. I'm never going to tell someone who has spent the day minding a family member and not earning a penny for it that they're not entitled to sit down at the end of the day and play a video game because what they done didn't give a remuneration.

Bit of a tangent there... but aye tell me just how does it impact you playing the game if some poor sap in his room is also playing that game but hasn't paid for it.... but would never have been able to pay for it? Does it make you feel worse as you play the game to think that someone else might be enjoying the same title but you're worrying they didn't pay the entry fee... what about when the game goes on sale, do you lose a little sleep or fun of the game if you paid 60 but I pick it up a month later for 20 does that get to you that I don't fully deserve to play it?



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Has anyone used the "I wasn't going to buy it anyway" excuse yet?



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If a copyrighted work cannot be legally obtained in your country for whatever reason, then I can see the point in piracy. Maybe the work in question has been out of print with no readily available second-hand copies (digital media is especially vulnerable to this). Maybe it's something that is unlikely to ever be re-published in an purchasable format because of some rights issue. Maybe it's an orphaned work whose publisher went under and the rights were never picked up in the aftermath. Maybe it's a foreign work that stands little to no chance of being released in your country. Maybe it's an online game whose developer shut it down. Maybe it's a title that the rights holder simply wants to bury for some reason. In any case, if the work in question is no longer readily available and the publisher either no longer exists or clearly demonstrates that they are no longer interested in making money off of the work, then I could see the point in downloading a pirated copy. And honestly, I wouldn't support even those exceptions if copyright came with a "use it or lose it" provision as well as shorter terms in general. While I buy legit copies of most of my entertainment, there have been a few works that I would like to spend money on to own a legit copy but I wasn't able to for various reasons, and may never get to enjoy unless I obtain a pirated copy.

But if it is something readily and legally available, then there's no excuse for not getting a legitimate copy. There is no valid reason for wanting to pirate, say, Infinity War or Red Dead Redemption 2 when you could easily drive up to Walmart or Target or Best Buy and buy a copy, or download or stream them from an authorized digital platform. If you pirate something that is readily available, then you clearly think you're simply entitled to free entertainment.



Ganoncrotch said:
Baalzamon said:

You're totally right.

If one person makes $40,000 a year and can afford 5 games, and another person makes $30,000 a year and cannot afford any games, the ONLY solution to this is the $30,000 person should be able to illegally download these games and still play them. After all, what difference does it make.

It is their right in life to live the exact same lifestyle (including which video games are available to them) as the person who makes more money than them.

While society has deemed certain things a right for all people to enjoy (we certainly strive to assist the poor so they can afford food, housing, healthcare, but are by no means perfect in this venture). But I believe the mass majority of people would say we have no business including video games in these buckets.

The difference it makes it is nullifies a giant chunk of how the economy runs, which is that people who make more money can buy more things (obviously there are lots of variables to this). It also is completely and totally unfair to people like myself who actually save up money for every single game that I purchase. Meanwhile, you just go and download the game, and never had to think twice about saving for it.

I completely and totally understand being jealous of those who make more and have more than you'll ever have. I've seen those people around me my entire life, and occasionally had thoughts that it just doesn't seem fair.

What I won't deal with though, is somebody trying to tell me that their theft doesn't make a difference. It absolutely steals from the creator of the game who isn't being compensated in any way for that copy of the game. It absolutely is unfair to the people who choose not to break the law and have to save up for the games that they buy.

Go on pirating your games, but for crying out loud, stop saying it has no impact on anybody else.

If you take a game like say.... GTAV and via illegal means it is torrented to an alien planet of 50 billion Klingons, and they all pass it around and play it.... How does that impact the game creator or you?

Even in your scenario of "person A has the money to pay for the item" "Person B does not" Person B never has money... he has the same amount of money as a planet full of billions of Aliens, there is no magic $60s that are in their pockets that are somehow not going into Activisions pocket when they play it, I'll put it like this man... I've worked with and around a lot of people who are on the line of not having anything, and the choices some people have is either sit back and play a few games in their spare time or spend it on things like drink/drugs and honestly I've directed people towards things like a R4 card for the Nintendo DS as a way that they could spend their spare time doing something that isn't constructive but at least would be less harmful than the alternative, and this isn't people who don't have jobs I'm talking about people who either have familys or dependants who consume all or most of their income so yeah, don't jump on the "well those losers should go get a job rather than playing games" There are a lot of people whos savings go to things like medical issues or yeah... the care of loved ones in their families. I'm never going to tell someone who has spent the day minding a family member and not earning a penny for it that they're not entitled to sit down at the end of the day and play a video game because what they done didn't give a remuneration.

Bit of a tangent there... but aye tell me just how does it impact you playing the game if some poor sap in his room is also playing that game but hasn't paid for it.... but would never have been able to pay for it? Does it make you feel worse as you play the game to think that someone else might be enjoying the same title but you're worrying they didn't pay the entry fee... what about when the game goes on sale, do you lose a little sleep or fun of the game if you paid 60 but I pick it up a month later for 20 does that get to you that I don't fully deserve to play it?

You really don't get it. It impacts me because I work my ass off to be able to make $5000 more a year than the next person specifically so I can afford the extra thing. So at what point is that extra work/income benefitting me AT ALL if the person making less is still getting the exact same things because they just take them illegally.

It makes my extra work completely worthless, and quite frankly encourages me to either also steal the game (in which case we are once again discussing the impact to the publisher) or to just not work as hard.

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And another tangent, don't even TRY to argue that for some the difference is either illegally downloading a game (for free) or doing drugs (cost money). There are MANY cheap games that can be had for less than consistently doing drugs (hell, the main game I play is free to play, and you can just buy skins/etc).

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But you have finally made clear why my arguments aren't sticking and never will. You truly think society is fully entitled to video games, and simply working 10 hours a day and taking care of their family means they absolutely should be able to play them no matter what.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

So what is the cutoff point for this entitlement? If a game took 10 years and $4 Billion to make and costs $3,000 to buy, is that one still ok to pirate?



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

What about Microsoft Office? I presume you should be able to steal that too, even though there are perfectly good office products for free.

Should I keep going?



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.