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When did you first notice that grafix had diminishing returns?

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linkink said:
curl-6 said:

That's still a matter of opinion though. I for instance would say PS4 hasn't progressed anywhere near as much as N64 did.

N64 had banjo and Zelda OOT, after that both of the sequels  for those games were hardly a upgrade, progress was dead, mean while on ps4, you have horizon GOW, then red dead 2 which people were in disbelief it could run on base ps4, and we still have last of us 2 which looks mind blowing.

See we're still just on opinions though. I'd say the progress N64 made from launch to the likes of Conker dwarfs the difference between Shadowfall and any later PS4 game.



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The_Liquid_Laser said:
mZuzek said:

You're not easily impressed, are you?

Heh, maybe.  It might be that I'm impressed by different things though.  

Part of the diminishing returns in generation 8 is that higher resolution can make things look worse.  Like I played Spider-Man last year, and the city looked beautiful but the people looked terrible.  The people were more detailed and such, but the higher resolution pushed the people into an Uncanny Valley and so they looked kinda creepy.  On the other hand Breath of the Wild went with a more cartoony style and I never had any issues with the people.  On top of that one of the few advantages the Switch has is draw distance.  Things look exceptionally crisp and clear at a distance on the Switch.  In Breath of the Wild this means that I could see Mount Doom on the other side of the map, but then later I could actually visit and interact with that place.  I had never had an experience like that before, and in this case the graphics were an enhancement to the exploration of the game and not just eye candy alone. 

Breath of the Wild used better design instead of better horsepower.  I am impressed by the better design, because it actually created a better game.  More CPU/GPU power can ironically make a game worse, because of the Uncanny Valley.

Your comment about resolution reminded me of this:



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Now Playing/Backlog:
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curl-6 said:
linkink said:

N64 had banjo and Zelda OOT, after that both of the sequels  for those games were hardly a upgrade, progress was dead, mean while on ps4, you have horizon GOW, then red dead 2 which people were in disbelief it could run on base ps4, and we still have last of us 2 which looks mind blowing.

See we're still just on opinions though. I'd say the progress N64 made from launch to the likes of Conker dwarfs the difference between Shadowfall and any later PS4 game.

The whole subject is opinion based, you were trying to make into a fact based argument. Gains come mostly from developers finding new ways for rendering technics, and learning how to use the hardware as efficiently as possible. It really doesn't matter if PS4/xb1 are standardized mature tech because developers weren't trying to find  new  rendering technics, or learn how to use that hardware as efficiently as possible before PS4/XB1 came out., The main focus was still ancient 360/ps3 till current gen came out.

Last edited by linkink - on 10 May 2019

With the xbox one and ps4. I don't think next gen's graphics will be much better.



linkink said:
curl-6 said:

See we're still just on opinions though. I'd say the progress N64 made from launch to the likes of Conker dwarfs the difference between Shadowfall and any later PS4 game.

The whole subject is opinion based, you were trying to make into a fact based argument. Gains come mostly from developers finding new ways for rendering technics, and learning how to use the hardware as efficiently as possible. It really doesn't matter if PS4/xb1 are standardized mature tech because developers weren't trying to find  new  rendering technics, or learn how to use that hardware as efficiently as possible before PS4/XB1 came out., The main focus was still ancient 360/ps3 till current gen came out.

Already covered this; learning to use PS4/Xbone efficiently was, by intentional design on MS/Sony's part, easier than PS3/360, hence less room for improvement over time. 

Look, you can rail against the realities of development as long as you like, but there's a better option; because graphics are a matter of subjective perception, you're still allowed to think that something looks better to you no matter what the facts say. For example, even though the raw facts say PS4's power leap over PS3 is quite large, I still personally feel it was a little underwhelming, and that's okay. We all have cases where our perceptions don't align with the raw numbers. Just be satisfied with your own opinion and don't take it as an affront when the objective side is brought up.

If it seemed like I was attacking you, I should clarify that was not my intent; you seem to have taken this personally and there's really no need for that as I bear you no ill will.



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curl-6 said:
linkink said:

The whole subject is opinion based, you were trying to make into a fact based argument. Gains come mostly from developers finding new ways for rendering technics, and learning how to use the hardware as efficiently as possible. It really doesn't matter if PS4/xb1 are standardized mature tech because developers weren't trying to find  new  rendering technics, or learn how to use that hardware as efficiently as possible before PS4/XB1 came out., The main focus was still ancient 360/ps3 till current gen came out.

Already covered this; learning to use PS4/Xbone efficiently was, by intentional design on MS/Sony's part, easier than PS3/360, hence less room for improvement over time. 

Look, you can rail against the realities of development as long as you like, but there's a better option; because graphics are a matter of subjective perception, you're still allowed to think that something looks better to you no matter what the facts say. For example, even though the raw facts say PS4's power leap over PS3 is quite large, I still personally feel it was a little underwhelming, and that's okay. We all have cases where our perceptions don't align with the raw numbers. Just be satisfied with your own opinion and don't take it as an affront when the objective side is brought up.

If it seemed like I was attacking you, I should clarify that was not my intent; you seem to have taken this personally and there's really no need for that as I bear you no ill will.  

You seem to be ignoring the fact that improvements or the comparisons for improvements really come down to the the progress from developers. Yes 360/ps3 were a bigger jump in terms of tech, they were near high end PC'S that's why there was a huge room for improvement, more then your reason you have about exotic/complicated design. 360 in particular was a very efficient console. Still those consoles had severe limitations with ram. I remember that gen clearly, good AA solution was rare and was jaw dropping lmao.  Still you can not say  that it's a fact PS3 had bigger gains then PS4 because of this, because it's clearly not a fact. At the end of the day it's The progress developers make for games to look, and run better is it what it all comes down to, I also gave you great comparisons, that you can't deny looking much better then shadowfall, and running double the frame rate is a huge leap when you compare what 360/ps3 games looked like at 60fps.



linkink said:
curl-6 said:

Already covered this; learning to use PS4/Xbone efficiently was, by intentional design on MS/Sony's part, easier than PS3/360, hence less room for improvement over time. 

Look, you can rail against the realities of development as long as you like, but there's a better option; because graphics are a matter of subjective perception, you're still allowed to think that something looks better to you no matter what the facts say. For example, even though the raw facts say PS4's power leap over PS3 is quite large, I still personally feel it was a little underwhelming, and that's okay. We all have cases where our perceptions don't align with the raw numbers. Just be satisfied with your own opinion and don't take it as an affront when the objective side is brought up.

If it seemed like I was attacking you, I should clarify that was not my intent; you seem to have taken this personally and there's really no need for that as I bear you no ill will.  

You seem to be ignoring the fact that improvements or the comparisons for improvements really come down to the the progress from developers. Yes 360/ps3 were a bigger jump in terms of tech, they were near high end PC'S that's why there was a huge room for improvement, more then your reason you have about exotic/complicated design. 360 in particular was a very efficient console. Still those consoles had severe limitations with ram. I remember that gen clearly, good AA solution was rare and was jaw dropping lmao.  Still you can not say  that it's a fact PS3 had bigger gains then PS4 because of this, because it's clearly not a fact. At the end of the day it's The progress developers make for games to look, and run better is it what it all comes down to, I also gave you great comparisons, that you can't deny looking much better then shadowfall, and running double the frame rate is a huge leap when you compare what 360/ps3 games looked like at 60fps.

Your fundamental mistake is you're trying to remove the development environment from the equation. That's simply not how game making works.

We've drifted miles off topic at this point, and its abundantly clear that your purpose here is merely to argue rather than to learn, so there's really no point in continuing to try to explain this to you. All the information you need to understand has already been stated. You may reply to this message if you wish, but I won't be reading it, so any parting jabs you choose to make will be wasted.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 12 May 2019

curl-6 said:
linkink said:

You seem to be ignoring the fact that improvements or the comparisons for improvements really come down to the the progress from developers. Yes 360/ps3 were a bigger jump in terms of tech, they were near high end PC'S that's why there was a huge room for improvement, more then your reason you have about exotic/complicated design. 360 in particular was a very efficient console. Still those consoles had severe limitations with ram. I remember that gen clearly, good AA solution was rare and was jaw dropping lmao.  Still you can not say  that it's a fact PS3 had bigger gains then PS4 because of this, because it's clearly not a fact. At the end of the day it's The progress developers make for games to look, and run better is it what it all comes down to, I also gave you great comparisons, that you can't deny looking much better then shadowfall, and running double the frame rate is a huge leap when you compare what 360/ps3 games looked like at 60fps.

Your fundamental mistake is you're trying to remove the development environment from the equation. That's simply not how game making works.

We've drifted miles off topic at this point, and its abundantly clear that your purpose here is merely to argue rather than to learn, so there's really no point in continuing to try to explain this to you. All the information you need to understand has already been stated. You may reply to this message if you wish, but I won't be reading it, so any parting jabs you choose to make will be wasted.

Thank you for teaching me. I learned so much from you. NO matter how many advancements developers made to graphics this gen, it cannot  match the gains ps3/360 made because  it was alien hardware with more room for improvements it doesn't matter what developers accomplished this gen, even if they achieved real life graphics this gen it's still impossible, because alien/exotic  hardware.



Graphics improvements happen because developers can use the libraries that they created for their previous game(s), na mean.



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Deus Ex (2000) - a game that pushes the boundaries of what the video game medium is capable of to a degree unmatched to this very day.

This gen also has an interesting feature in that it has had mid-gen upgrades. While the PS4 Pro and XB1X are mostly used for higher resolutions and framerates, they still give developers much more headroom to work with, and some games do come with better textures, lighting effects, and other graphical improvements that the base consoles don't have.