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Azuren said:
HylianSwordsman said:

Of course he is. I only mentioned him to prove my point that I can just as easily cite example to the contrary, so don't use anecdotal evidence.

I've explained this multiple times. They're spinoffs. I have no issue with the numbering system. I have an issue with how the story was presented. Take Chain of Memories for instance. Why the fuck does it exist as a game? There's so little actual plot in that game, so little real substance, it's mostly just wandering through watered down versions of places we've already been. What little actual plot there was could have been a part of KH2. The whole game could have, honestly, in an extremely abridged form that skipped the endless revisiting of old content, by just having Castle Oblivion be the 1st world, condensing all the actual story moments into an interesting prologue. Just one example of how they could have done it, I'm sure you could come up with a better one with enough time, just please, not the way they actually did it. Of course if did neglect to make Chain of Memories a separate game, then we wouldn't have had that glorious card battle system, oh what a tragedy. But yeah, you're proving my point about how the story is presented. It's just so obnoxious. They are spinoffs, but that's not what makes it obnoxious. Like forevercloud3000 said below, they wear the continuity too thin.

No, I'm asking a different question there. I know what your point is, but I disagree. What I don't get is why you're so emotional over this. So many people in this thread got up in arms about this. You're not going to convince me, so why bother? I'm going to keep playing Kingdom Hearts game, having this opinion, and sharing this opinion when I talk about Kingdom Hearts with other people. No one in this thread will change that. Your gatekeeping changes nothing, because you're not the arbiter of who gets to be a KH fan.

Honestly, at this point I've given up with you. I don't know what part of being a main, integral entry in n overarching story isn't getting through to you, but apparently your brain seems to be stuck in "NO NUMBER IN TITLE? MUST BE A SPIN-OFF" mode. The fact remains that they aren't spin-offs, they're main entries that don't have numbers in the titles because, as we all know, Kingdom Hearts naming convention is a meme. You can scream at the top of your lungs that they are spin-offs, and like I said before you could make that argument for titles like Re:coded (which, if we're honest, only explains one thing that no one cared about). But titles like Chain of Memories, Birth by Sleep, and Dream Drop Distance are as integral to the overall narrative as any of the titles that arbitrarily have numbers in them.

No one is screaming but you dude. Refer to the definition. The fact remains that they're spinoffs by definition. You've yet to answer that with anything but a "nuh-uh, you're wrong!"



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Hiku said:
HylianSwordsman said:

Of course he is. I only mentioned him to prove my point that I can just as easily cite example to the contrary, so don't use anecdotal evidence.

I've explained this multiple times. They're spinoffs. I have no issue with the numbering system. I have an issue with how the story was presented. Take Chain of Memories for instance. Why the fuck does it exist as a game? There's so little actual plot in that game, so little real substance, it's mostly just wandering through watered down versions of places we've already been. What little actual plot there was could have been a part of KH2. The whole game could have, honestly, in an extremely abridged form that skipped the endless revisiting of old content, by just having Castle Oblivion be the 1st world, condensing all the actual story moments into an interesting prologue. Just one example of how they could have done it, I'm sure you could come up with a better one with enough time, just please, not the way they actually did it. Of course if did neglect to make Chain of Memories a separate game, then we wouldn't have had that glorious card battle system, oh what a tragedy. But yeah, you're proving my point about how the story is presented. It's just so obnoxious. They are spinoffs, but that's not what makes it obnoxious. Like forevercloud3000 said below, they wear the continuity too thin.

No, I'm asking a different question there. I know what your point is, but I disagree. What I don't get is why you're so emotional over this. So many people in this thread got up in arms about this. You're not going to convince me, so why bother? I'm going to keep playing Kingdom Hearts game, having this opinion, and sharing this opinion when I talk about Kingdom Hearts with other people. No one in this thread will change that. Your gatekeeping changes nothing, because you're not the arbiter of who gets to be a KH fan.

I haven't gone through your guys entire exchange, but could you tell me why Birth By Sleep is a spinoff to you?
(And if your answer involves "You play as different main characters", keep in mind that in Metal Gear Solid 2 you play as Raiden. And in Metal Gear Solid 3 you play as Big Boss. Etc.)
I'd say BBS is way more important to KH3's story than KH2 is. Because Kingdom Hearts 2 essentially concluded the Ansem story arc. While KH3 is the culmination of the Xehanort story arc, which obviously Birth By Sleep is the entire foundation of.

If you go into KH3 having only played KH1 and Chain of Memories, and you have the choice of skipping either KH2, or BBS, you're going to understand a lot more about the story and central conflict of the game by skipping KH2 than if you didn't play BBS. Without playing BBS you wouldn't even know who many of the most important characters are. Even for some of the KH2 elements that carry over, such as Axel, I'd say his story in Dream Drop Distance is far more relevant to the events of KH3.
Otherwise you'd just be left wondering why he's still alive, why he can use a keyblade, who Xion is, why Roxas looks like... Ven..? Whoever that is.

You can argue that some stories are less essential than others, or that some may even be skippable without affecting much of the overall plot. But that's not consistently inherent to what they chose to name the games, because that would be ignoring the PR aspect of it.

If they can avoid making newcomers to the series on other platforms feel like they're missing out on things in an ongoing story with "Kingdom Hearts 6" on the cover, they will often do that. And if they want to bring more attention to a game that's fundamentally vastly different than the rest of the series, they can give it a number, like Final Fantasy 11.

Speaking of which though, I believe I read that BBS was originally supposed to be called Kingdom Hearts 0. Which makes sense, and may be reflected in the fact that the Epilogue is called Kingdom Hearts 0.2 Birth by Sleep.

I can think of 0 reasons for why anyone would want to skip Birth By Sleep's story, going into KH3. Quite the contrary.
Although I agree that Chain of Memories is pretty skippable. But you can make that case for a lot of mainline entries in other franchises as well.

Ugh, people just do not get what I'm trying to say at all. I've tried as hard as I can to make it clear that I love the games I'm calling the spinoff games, and that I even agree that a lot of them contain stuff that is essential to really understand the story. I would recommend that anyone getting into Kingdom Hearts that wants to be able to follow along with the story play all of them. Thank God for collections. This whole thing started because I felt that the presentation of the story was flawed, and that the naming conventions was indicative of that failure. People just got hung up over my use of the term spinoff and harped on that endlessly, apparently because they're offended by it. I don't see it as an offensive term because even Super Mario Bros. is a spinoff of Donkey Kong by definition. The definition I'm using is the wikipedia definition, the definition all the offended people seem to be using is "pointless gimmicky experiment game you can ignore" and I just don't get it.

Here's wikipedia on it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-off_(media)

"In media, a spin-off[1] (or spinoff[2]) is a radio programtelevision programvideo gamefilm, or any narrative work, derived from already existing works that focus on more details and different aspects from the original work (e.g. particular topics, characters or events)."

The article then lists Kingdom Hearts as an example of a video game franchise with many spinoffs. It says:

  • The Kingdom Hearts series features a good number of spin offs that greatly expanded the plot of the mainline games, notably there are 4 handheld games and a smartphone game released between the 2005's Kingdom Hearts 2 and 2019's Kingdom Hearts 3, all of which expanded the original thread of the story.

By this definition, which is the one I use and no one will ever convince me to stop using, the non-numbered entries are spinoffs. It's not meant to be offensive. If you want to use your own definition, be my guest. But I really don't appreciate the people who are acting like I'm some idiot or a terrible fan undermining the franchise just because I disagree with them on the definition of spinoff.



HylianSwordsman said:
Azuren said:

Honestly, at this point I've given up with you. I don't know what part of being a main, integral entry in n overarching story isn't getting through to you, but apparently your brain seems to be stuck in "NO NUMBER IN TITLE? MUST BE A SPIN-OFF" mode. The fact remains that they aren't spin-offs, they're main entries that don't have numbers in the titles because, as we all know, Kingdom Hearts naming convention is a meme. You can scream at the top of your lungs that they are spin-offs, and like I said before you could make that argument for titles like Re:coded (which, if we're honest, only explains one thing that no one cared about). But titles like Chain of Memories, Birth by Sleep, and Dream Drop Distance are as integral to the overall narrative as any of the titles that arbitrarily have numbers in them.

No one is screaming but you dude. Refer to the definition. The fact remains that they're spinoffs by definition. You've yet to answer that with anything but a "nuh-uh, you're wrong!"

They're not. They're main entries that aren't numbered. Based on your surface-level understanding of what a spin-off is, KH2 and KH3 are also spin-offs of Kingdom Hearts, and the only thing you're basing them not being spin-offs is the inclusion of a sequential number. You can pretend to be right, but anyone who knows what a spin-off is and what the unnumbered titles in Kingdom Hearts are will just cross their arms and shake their heads.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

Azuren said:
HylianSwordsman said:

No one is screaming but you dude. Refer to the definition. The fact remains that they're spinoffs by definition. You've yet to answer that with anything but a "nuh-uh, you're wrong!"

They're not. They're main entries that aren't numbered. Based on your surface-level understanding of what a spin-off is, KH2 and KH3 are also spin-offs of Kingdom Hearts, and the only thing you're basing them not being spin-offs is the inclusion of a sequential number. You can pretend to be right, but anyone who knows what a spin-off is and what the unnumbered titles in Kingdom Hearts are will just cross their arms and shake their heads.

Tell that to the guy that wrote the Wikipedia article. Or better yet, fix it, if you're so sure of yourself. I don't get why you can't let go of the fact that some people disagree with you.



HylianSwordsman said:
Azuren said:

Honestly, at this point I've given up with you. I don't know what part of being a main, integral entry in n overarching story isn't getting through to you, but apparently your brain seems to be stuck in "NO NUMBER IN TITLE? MUST BE A SPIN-OFF" mode. The fact remains that they aren't spin-offs, they're main entries that don't have numbers in the titles because, as we all know, Kingdom Hearts naming convention is a meme. You can scream at the top of your lungs that they are spin-offs, and like I said before you could make that argument for titles like Re:coded (which, if we're honest, only explains one thing that no one cared about). But titles like Chain of Memories, Birth by Sleep, and Dream Drop Distance are as integral to the overall narrative as any of the titles that arbitrarily have numbers in them.

No one is screaming but you dude. Refer to the definition. The fact remains that they're spinoffs by definition. You've yet to answer that with anything but a "nuh-uh, you're wrong!"

User warned - Bristow9091

Last edited by Bristow9091 - on 28 May 2019

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HylianSwordsman said:
Hiku said:

I haven't gone through your guys entire exchange, but could you tell me why Birth By Sleep is a spinoff to you?
(And if your answer involves "You play as different main characters", keep in mind that in Metal Gear Solid 2 you play as Raiden. And in Metal Gear Solid 3 you play as Big Boss. Etc.)
I'd say BBS is way more important to KH3's story than KH2 is. Because Kingdom Hearts 2 essentially concluded the Ansem story arc. While KH3 is the culmination of the Xehanort story arc, which obviously Birth By Sleep is the entire foundation of.

If you go into KH3 having only played KH1 and Chain of Memories, and you have the choice of skipping either KH2, or BBS, you're going to understand a lot more about the story and central conflict of the game by skipping KH2 than if you didn't play BBS. Without playing BBS you wouldn't even know who many of the most important characters are. Even for some of the KH2 elements that carry over, such as Axel, I'd say his story in Dream Drop Distance is far more relevant to the events of KH3.
Otherwise you'd just be left wondering why he's still alive, why he can use a keyblade, who Xion is, why Roxas looks like... Ven..? Whoever that is.

You can argue that some stories are less essential than others, or that some may even be skippable without affecting much of the overall plot. But that's not consistently inherent to what they chose to name the games, because that would be ignoring the PR aspect of it.

If they can avoid making newcomers to the series on other platforms feel like they're missing out on things in an ongoing story with "Kingdom Hearts 6" on the cover, they will often do that. And if they want to bring more attention to a game that's fundamentally vastly different than the rest of the series, they can give it a number, like Final Fantasy 11.

Speaking of which though, I believe I read that BBS was originally supposed to be called Kingdom Hearts 0. Which makes sense, and may be reflected in the fact that the Epilogue is called Kingdom Hearts 0.2 Birth by Sleep.

I can think of 0 reasons for why anyone would want to skip Birth By Sleep's story, going into KH3. Quite the contrary.
Although I agree that Chain of Memories is pretty skippable. But you can make that case for a lot of mainline entries in other franchises as well.

Ugh, people just do not get what I'm trying to say at all. I've tried as hard as I can to make it clear that I love the games I'm calling the spinoff games, and that I even agree that a lot of them contain stuff that is essential to really understand the story. I would recommend that anyone getting into Kingdom Hearts that wants to be able to follow along with the story play all of them. Thank God for collections. This whole thing started because I felt that the presentation of the story was flawed, and that the naming conventions was indicative of that failure. People just got hung up over my use of the term spinoff and harped on that endlessly, apparently because they're offended by it. I don't see it as an offensive term because even Super Mario Bros. is a spinoff of Donkey Kong by definition. The definition I'm using is the wikipedia definition, the definition all the offended people seem to be using is "pointless gimmicky experiment game you can ignore" and I just don't get it.

Here's wikipedia on it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-off_(media)

"In media, a spin-off[1] (or spinoff[2]) is a radio programtelevision programvideo gamefilm, or any narrative work, derived from already existing works that focus on more details and different aspects from the original work (e.g. particular topics, characters or events)."

The article then lists Kingdom Hearts as an example of a video game franchise with many spinoffs. It says:

  • The Kingdom Hearts series features a good number of spin offs that greatly expanded the plot of the mainline games, notably there are 4 handheld games and a smartphone game released between the 2005's Kingdom Hearts 2 and 2019's Kingdom Hearts 3, all of which expanded the original thread of the story.

By this definition, which is the one I use and no one will ever convince me to stop using, the non-numbered entries are spinoffs. It's not meant to be offensive. If you want to use your own definition, be my guest. But I really don't appreciate the people who are acting like I'm some idiot or a terrible fan undermining the franchise just because I disagree with them on the definition of spinoff.

HylianSwordsman said:
Azuren said:

They're not. They're main entries that aren't numbered. Based on your surface-level understanding of what a spin-off is, KH2 and KH3 are also spin-offs of Kingdom Hearts, and the only thing you're basing them not being spin-offs is the inclusion of a sequential number. You can pretend to be right, but anyone who knows what a spin-off is and what the unnumbered titles in Kingdom Hearts are will just cross their arms and shake their heads.

Tell that to the guy that wrote the Wikipedia article. Or better yet, fix it, if you're so sure of yourself. I don't get why you can't let go of the fact that some people disagree with you.

The same wikipedia page that says there are four handheld Kingdom Hearts titles?

Chain of Memories (1)

358/2 Days (2)

Birth By Sleep (3)

Re:Coded (4)

Dream Drop Distance (also 4?...)

Sorry, but it would seem like whoever is running that page doesn't really know jack about Kingdom Hearts. If they did, they would recognize how at the very least Chain of Memories, Dream Drop Distance, and Birth By Sleep are main entries in that can't be skipped.

Also, based on their own logic, the only thing preventing Ni no Kuni 2 from being a spin-off is the fact that a number is in the title. You know, since they changed the setting, characters, battle system, story...



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

HylianSwordsman said:
Hiku said:

I haven't gone through your guys entire exchange, but could you tell me why Birth By Sleep is a spinoff to you?
(And if your answer involves "You play as different main characters", keep in mind that in Metal Gear Solid 2 you play as Raiden. And in Metal Gear Solid 3 you play as Big Boss. Etc.)
I'd say BBS is way more important to KH3's story than KH2 is. Because Kingdom Hearts 2 essentially concluded the Ansem story arc. While KH3 is the culmination of the Xehanort story arc, which obviously Birth By Sleep is the entire foundation of.

If you go into KH3 having only played KH1 and Chain of Memories, and you have the choice of skipping either KH2, or BBS, you're going to understand a lot more about the story and central conflict of the game by skipping KH2 than if you didn't play BBS. Without playing BBS you wouldn't even know who many of the most important characters are. Even for some of the KH2 elements that carry over, such as Axel, I'd say his story in Dream Drop Distance is far more relevant to the events of KH3.
Otherwise you'd just be left wondering why he's still alive, why he can use a keyblade, who Xion is, why Roxas looks like... Ven..? Whoever that is.

You can argue that some stories are less essential than others, or that some may even be skippable without affecting much of the overall plot. But that's not consistently inherent to what they chose to name the games, because that would be ignoring the PR aspect of it.

If they can avoid making newcomers to the series on other platforms feel like they're missing out on things in an ongoing story with "Kingdom Hearts 6" on the cover, they will often do that. And if they want to bring more attention to a game that's fundamentally vastly different than the rest of the series, they can give it a number, like Final Fantasy 11.

Speaking of which though, I believe I read that BBS was originally supposed to be called Kingdom Hearts 0. Which makes sense, and may be reflected in the fact that the Epilogue is called Kingdom Hearts 0.2 Birth by Sleep.

I can think of 0 reasons for why anyone would want to skip Birth By Sleep's story, going into KH3. Quite the contrary.
Although I agree that Chain of Memories is pretty skippable. But you can make that case for a lot of mainline entries in other franchises as well.

Ugh, people just do not get what I'm trying to say at all. I've tried as hard as I can to make it clear that I love the games I'm calling the spinoff games, and that I even agree that a lot of them contain stuff that is essential to really understand the story. I would recommend that anyone getting into Kingdom Hearts that wants to be able to follow along with the story play all of them. Thank God for collections. This whole thing started because I felt that the presentation of the story was flawed, and that the naming conventions was indicative of that failure. People just got hung up over my use of the term spinoff and harped on that endlessly, apparently because they're offended by it. I don't see it as an offensive term because even Super Mario Bros. is a spinoff of Donkey Kong by definition. The definition I'm using is the wikipedia definition, the definition all the offended people seem to be using is "pointless gimmicky experiment game you can ignore" and I just don't get it.

Here's wikipedia on it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-off_(media)

"In media, a spin-off[1] (or spinoff[2]) is a radio programtelevision programvideo gamefilm, or any narrative work, derived from already existing works that focus on more details and different aspects from the original work (e.g. particular topics, characters or events)."

The article then lists Kingdom Hearts as an example of a video game franchise with many spinoffs. It says:

  • The Kingdom Hearts series features a good number of spin offs that greatly expanded the plot of the mainline games, notably there are 4 handheld games and a smartphone game released between the 2005's Kingdom Hearts 2 and 2019's Kingdom Hearts 3, all of which expanded the original thread of the story.

By this definition, which is the one I use and no one will ever convince me to stop using, the non-numbered entries are spinoffs. It's not meant to be offensive. If you want to use your own definition, be my guest. But I really don't appreciate the people who are acting like I'm some idiot or a terrible fan undermining the franchise just because I disagree with them on the definition of spinoff.

Well I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't find the 'spinoff' term offensive in this case, but rather a mischaracterization of (at least some) these non-numbered games. Just as you described, people hear 'spinoff' and they then assume things about those games that may very well not be true. Leading some to skip out on playing them.
If you want a recent example, someone made a topic asking in which order they should play the mainline FF games in, and said they're skipping the spin offs. 
Final Fantasy Tactics is not a numbered game, but should imo by no means be skipped if your concern with spinoff is quality. In fact there are several numbered games you should sooner skip, if that is your concern.

When you mention Mario Bros as an example, it's disregarding what this conversation is about.

No one questions or cares whether Mario is a spinoff or not, because Mario Bros is a franchise of its own, fully enjoyable without playing or knowing about Donkey Kong.
That is not the case for the non-numbered KH games.


Though aside from the fact that whoever wrote that wiki portion didn't establish why those KH games were supposedly spinoffs, and got the number of handheld games wrong (said there were 4, but there are 5), if I look at the definition above, it's vague enough that it sounds like it could be applied in the same manner to Kingdom Hearts 2 & 3 as well.

That's why I wanted to hear from you, in your own words, why you think Birth By Sleep should be referred to as a spinoff, by whatever definition you use, rather than just hearing what that definition is. How it differs from KH2 and 3 to the point where it's more proper to call it a spinoff.
And please, use the examples from my previous post in your response, if you could.

Although I understand that you consider its story just as important to the the series, which was the main point I focused on. It's the foundation for the main plot in KH3. Similar to how KH 1 was to KH 2.
But that's also why I don't quite understand what it is about it that makes you categorize it a spinnoff. It shouldn't be the gameplay. There's an argument to be made for Chain of Memories since its combat differs quite a bit from the rest of the series, but I believe the things they have in common outweigh what they don't.

I don't think the same can be said for Mario Kart for example, since the entire premise of the game is different. They could re-skin the characters to something else and change the world, and no one would have suspected it was based on Mario or Donkey Kong.
Re-skin BBS and you're still very much playing a Kingdom Hearts game and experiencing a KH story.

When it comes to a series with a continuous expansive main story, I don't think I can consider it a spinoff unless other aspects of it that are at least equally important, are vastly different.

Persona 4 Arena for example is a spinoff in every way. Not only is the gameplay completely different (it's a fighting game) but the story in it is a stand alone side story, largely irrelevant to the plot in Persona 4. The Persona 4 story is also complete without having to play P4 Arena.
And again, I find that none of these things are true in the Kingdom Hearts series.

What I do think is that some people first assume that the non-numbered KH games are spinoffs because of what Square decided to put on the box cover, and then when asked why they think so, rationalize it in ways that, at least so far to me, has not made much sense. That's why I want to hear your take.

Last edited by Hiku - on 29 May 2019

Hiku said:
HylianSwordsman said:

Ugh, people just do not get what I'm trying to say at all. I've tried as hard as I can to make it clear that I love the games I'm calling the spinoff games, and that I even agree that a lot of them contain stuff that is essential to really understand the story. I would recommend that anyone getting into Kingdom Hearts that wants to be able to follow along with the story play all of them. Thank God for collections. This whole thing started because I felt that the presentation of the story was flawed, and that the naming conventions was indicative of that failure. People just got hung up over my use of the term spinoff and harped on that endlessly, apparently because they're offended by it. I don't see it as an offensive term because even Super Mario Bros. is a spinoff of Donkey Kong by definition. The definition I'm using is the wikipedia definition, the definition all the offended people seem to be using is "pointless gimmicky experiment game you can ignore" and I just don't get it.

Here's wikipedia on it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-off_(media)

"In media, a spin-off[1] (or spinoff[2]) is a radio programtelevision programvideo gamefilm, or any narrative work, derived from already existing works that focus on more details and different aspects from the original work (e.g. particular topics, characters or events)."

The article then lists Kingdom Hearts as an example of a video game franchise with many spinoffs. It says:

  • The Kingdom Hearts series features a good number of spin offs that greatly expanded the plot of the mainline games, notably there are 4 handheld games and a smartphone game released between the 2005's Kingdom Hearts 2 and 2019's Kingdom Hearts 3, all of which expanded the original thread of the story.

By this definition, which is the one I use and no one will ever convince me to stop using, the non-numbered entries are spinoffs. It's not meant to be offensive. If you want to use your own definition, be my guest. But I really don't appreciate the people who are acting like I'm some idiot or a terrible fan undermining the franchise just because I disagree with them on the definition of spinoff.

Well I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't find the 'spinoff' term offensive in this case, but rather a mischaracterization of (at least some) these non-numbered games. Just as you described, people hear 'spinoff' and they then assume things about those games that may very well not be true. Leading some to skip out on playing them.
If you want a recent example, someone made a topic asking in which order they should play the mainline FF games in, and said they're skipping the spin offs. 
Final Fantasy Tactics is not a numbered game, but should imo by no means be skipped if your concern with spinoff is quality. In fact there are several numbered games you should sooner skip, if that is your concern.

When you mention Mario Bros as an example, it's disregarding what this conversation is about.

No one questions or cares whether Mario is a spinoff or not, because Mario Bros is a franchise of its own, fully enjoyable without playing or knowing about Donkey Kong.
That is not the case for the non-numbered KH games.


Though aside from the fact that whoever wrote that wiki portion didn't establish why those KH games were supposedly spinoffs, and got the number of handheld games wrong (said there were 4, but there are 5), if I look at the definition above, it's vague enough that it sounds like it could be applied in the same manner to Kingdom Hearts 2 & 3 as well.

That's why I wanted to hear from you, in your own words, why you think Birth By Sleep should be referred to as a spinoff, by whatever definition you use, rather than just hearing what that definition is. How it differs from KH2 and 3 to the point where it's more proper to call it a spinoff.
And please, use the examples from my previous post in your response, if you could.

Although I understand that you consider its story just as important to the the series, which was the main point I focused on. It's the foundation for the main plot in KH3. Similar to how KH 1 was to KH 2.
But that's also why I don't quite understand what it is about it that makes you categorize it a spinnoff. It shouldn't be the gameplay. There's an argument to be made for Chain of Memories since its combat differs quite a bit from the rest of the series, but I believe the things they have in common outweigh what they don't.

I don't think the same can be said for Mario Kart for example, since the entire premise of the game is different. They could re-skin the characters to something else and change the world, and no one would have suspected it was based on Mario or Donkey Kong.
Re-skin BBS and you're still very much playing a Kingdom Hearts game and experiencing a KH story.

When it comes to a series with a continuous expansive main story, I don't think I can consider it a spinoff unless other aspects of it that are at least equally important, are vastly different.

Persona 4 Arena for example is a spinoff in every way. Not only is the gameplay completely different (it's a fighting game) but the story in it is a stand alone side story, largely irrelevant to the plot in Persona 4. The Persona 4 story is also complete without having to play P4 Arena.
And again, I find that none of these things are true in the Kingdom Hearts series.

What I do think is that some people first assume that the non-numbered KH games are spinoffs because of what Square decided to put on the box cover, and then when asked why they think so, rationalize it in ways that, at least so far to me, has not made much sense. That's why I want to hear your take.

Just an aside, I mentioned Mario because it was a glaring example of something that is a spinoff, but is well regarded. Spinoffs can become well regarded series in their own rights, but don't have to.

The Wikipedia page is actually right. There are 4 games between Kingdom Hearts 2 and Kingdom Hearts 3. There's a 5th one, Chain of Memories, between KH1 and KH2. The article merely says "notably" between 2 and 3, presumably because the one game in between KH1 and KH2 is not as glaring an example of spinoffs as the 4 handhelds and 1 smartphone game between KH2 and KH3. But that's being nitpicky. The point is I agree with it's definition. A piece of media, including video games (which KH is), derived from an already existing work (which the handhelds are of the numbered games), that focus on more details and different aspects from the original work (which each handheld title does). And the article author does establish why they're spinoffs. He says they "expanded on the original thread of the story". The original story of the numbered games focuses on Sora and friends and their battle against the main antagonist of the series. The handheld games tell about events outside of that or focus on different characters, while the numbered games continue that main story thread. Yes, the main story thread references details from those other threads, but they are still other threads, not the main story thread. In other words, In between each numbered game, there have been many games, and I like them, but I was always looking forward to the continuation of the main story thread.

And that's why this discussion about what term to refer to them by misses my main, original point. Are they spinoffs? Maybe, maybe not, I really don't care at this point. That is the word I choose to call them by, and no one will change my mind on that, but if you'd rather not call them that because you have a different understanding of what a spinoff is, that's your call. My point has nothing to do with them being spinoffs. My original statement was:

"It did take them 13 years to make the next mainline game. Spinoffs don't count. I love Kingdom Hearts, but SE really dragged this whole saga out way too long, and I'm still mad at them for it. And I don't hate the spinoffs either. 358/2 Days holds a special place for me. But damn, KH2->KH3 13 years? Come on SE. Not cool."

People were very upset that I called the non-numbered games spinoffs. But that's not the point. The sentence after that is the point: "SE really dragged this whole saga out way too long, and I'm still mad at them for it." If you don't want to call them spinoffs, that's fine, but even though they contain important elements for understanding the story of 3, they still aren't 3, they're something else, and they're not what I was waiting for in between 2 and 3. I knew 3 would be a continuation of Sora's main quest, and that's what I wanted to see. BBS isn't a continuation of Sora's main quest, it's a further complication of the plot, on a system I don't own and don't have money to buy. That was my perspective when it came out. I just saw BBS as an annoyance because I wanted to see Sora's story continue, and I didn't want to have to buy 5 games and 4 handheld systems to understand it. That frustrates me. I'm frustrated with how they choose to present the story. I'd rather they just made 1, 2, and 3, and presented them in such a way so they could be understood by playing them in that order. KH2 could start by explaining briefly what happened in between 1 and 2, and maybe sometime later they could make a game that expanded on those details, but I'd rather it not be required to play to understand Sora's main struggle against the main villain. Prequel games can be interesting, but I'd rather they add further context to a plot I already understand, not interrupt a story I want to finish and force me to play that first so that I can understand a sequel. Can you not imagine how that might be frustrating to someone? So call them spinoffs or not, but the focus of those games is on things that are interesting, but not the same focus as the numbered series, and the focus of the numbered series is the plot thread I wanted to finish, and that I waited 13 years for.

TL;DR the point isn't what you call the non-numbered games or whether their stories are skippable, it's that the focus of the numbered games was on a particular plot thread and I wish that Square Enix had finished that plot thread quickly in a way that could be understood sequentially without needing to play prequels or midquels or games that expand the plot into other winding threads that add important details but don't really move the original plot forward. Instead they paused the plot thread I cared about for 13 years to make games that just complicated the plot. Now again, some of those games were good, but they still sidetracked from the original plot thread I wanted to see the finish of.



HylianSwordsman said:
Hiku said:

Well I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't find the 'spinoff' term offensive in this case, but rather a mischaracterization of (at least some) these non-numbered games. Just as you described, people hear 'spinoff' and they then assume things about those games that may very well not be true. Leading some to skip out on playing them.
If you want a recent example, someone made a topic asking in which order they should play the mainline FF games in, and said they're skipping the spin offs. 
Final Fantasy Tactics is not a numbered game, but should imo by no means be skipped if your concern with spinoff is quality. In fact there are several numbered games you should sooner skip, if that is your concern.

When you mention Mario Bros as an example, it's disregarding what this conversation is about.

No one questions or cares whether Mario is a spinoff or not, because Mario Bros is a franchise of its own, fully enjoyable without playing or knowing about Donkey Kong.
That is not the case for the non-numbered KH games.


Though aside from the fact that whoever wrote that wiki portion didn't establish why those KH games were supposedly spinoffs, and got the number of handheld games wrong (said there were 4, but there are 5), if I look at the definition above, it's vague enough that it sounds like it could be applied in the same manner to Kingdom Hearts 2 & 3 as well.

That's why I wanted to hear from you, in your own words, why you think Birth By Sleep should be referred to as a spinoff, by whatever definition you use, rather than just hearing what that definition is. How it differs from KH2 and 3 to the point where it's more proper to call it a spinoff.
And please, use the examples from my previous post in your response, if you could.

Although I understand that you consider its story just as important to the the series, which was the main point I focused on. It's the foundation for the main plot in KH3. Similar to how KH 1 was to KH 2.
But that's also why I don't quite understand what it is about it that makes you categorize it a spinnoff. It shouldn't be the gameplay. There's an argument to be made for Chain of Memories since its combat differs quite a bit from the rest of the series, but I believe the things they have in common outweigh what they don't.

I don't think the same can be said for Mario Kart for example, since the entire premise of the game is different. They could re-skin the characters to something else and change the world, and no one would have suspected it was based on Mario or Donkey Kong.
Re-skin BBS and you're still very much playing a Kingdom Hearts game and experiencing a KH story.

When it comes to a series with a continuous expansive main story, I don't think I can consider it a spinoff unless other aspects of it that are at least equally important, are vastly different.

Persona 4 Arena for example is a spinoff in every way. Not only is the gameplay completely different (it's a fighting game) but the story in it is a stand alone side story, largely irrelevant to the plot in Persona 4. The Persona 4 story is also complete without having to play P4 Arena.
And again, I find that none of these things are true in the Kingdom Hearts series.

What I do think is that some people first assume that the non-numbered KH games are spinoffs because of what Square decided to put on the box cover, and then when asked why they think so, rationalize it in ways that, at least so far to me, has not made much sense. That's why I want to hear your take.

Just an aside, I mentioned Mario because it was a glaring example of something that is a spinoff, but is well regarded. Spinoffs can become well regarded series in their own rights, but don't have to.

The Wikipedia page is actually right. There are 4 games between Kingdom Hearts 2 and Kingdom Hearts 3. There's a 5th one, Chain of Memories, between KH1 and KH2. The article merely says "notably" between 2 and 3, presumably because the one game in between KH1 and KH2 is not as glaring an example of spinoffs as the 4 handhelds and 1 smartphone game between KH2 and KH3. But that's being nitpicky. The point is I agree with it's definition. A piece of media, including video games (which KH is), derived from an already existing work (which the handhelds are of the numbered games), that focus on more details and different aspects from the original work (which each handheld title does). And the article author does establish why they're spinoffs. He says they "expanded on the original thread of the story". The original story of the numbered games focuses on Sora and friends and their battle against the main antagonist of the series. The handheld games tell about events outside of that or focus on different characters, while the numbered games continue that main story thread. Yes, the main story thread references details from those other threads, but they are still other threads, not the main story thread. In other words, In between each numbered game, there have been many games, and I like them, but I was always looking forward to the continuation of the main story thread.

And that's why this discussion about what term to refer to them by misses my main, original point. Are they spinoffs? Maybe, maybe not, I really don't care at this point. That is the word I choose to call them by, and no one will change my mind on that, but if you'd rather not call them that because you have a different understanding of what a spinoff is, that's your call. My point has nothing to do with them being spinoffs. My original statement was:

"It did take them 13 years to make the next mainline game. Spinoffs don't count. I love Kingdom Hearts, but SE really dragged this whole saga out way too long, and I'm still mad at them for it. And I don't hate the spinoffs either. 358/2 Days holds a special place for me. But damn, KH2->KH3 13 years? Come on SE. Not cool."

People were very upset that I called the non-numbered games spinoffs. But that's not the point. The sentence after that is the point: "SE really dragged this whole saga out way too long, and I'm still mad at them for it." If you don't want to call them spinoffs, that's fine, but even though they contain important elements for understanding the story of 3, they still aren't 3, they're something else, and they're not what I was waiting for in between 2 and 3. I knew 3 would be a continuation of Sora's main quest, and that's what I wanted to see. BBS isn't a continuation of Sora's main quest, it's a further complication of the plot, on a system I don't own and don't have money to buy. That was my perspective when it came out. I just saw BBS as an annoyance because I wanted to see Sora's story continue, and I didn't want to have to buy 5 games and 4 handheld systems to understand it. That frustrates me. I'm frustrated with how they choose to present the story. I'd rather they just made 1, 2, and 3, and presented them in such a way so they could be understood by playing them in that order. KH2 could start by explaining briefly what happened in between 1 and 2, and maybe sometime later they could make a game that expanded on those details, but I'd rather it not be required to play to understand Sora's main struggle against the main villain. Prequel games can be interesting, but I'd rather they add further context to a plot I already understand, not interrupt a story I want to finish and force me to play that first so that I can understand a sequel. Can you not imagine how that might be frustrating to someone? So call them spinoffs or not, but the focus of those games is on things that are interesting, but not the same focus as the numbered series, and the focus of the numbered series is the plot thread I wanted to finish, and that I waited 13 years for.

TL;DR the point isn't what you call the non-numbered games or whether their stories are skippable, it's that the focus of the numbered games was on a particular plot thread and I wish that Square Enix had finished that plot thread quickly in a way that could be understood sequentially without needing to play prequels or midquels or games that expand the plot into other winding threads that add important details but don't really move the original plot forward. Instead they paused the plot thread I cared about for 13 years to make games that just complicated the plot. Now again, some of those games were good, but they still sidetracked from the original plot thread I wanted to see the finish of.

Actual tl;dr You really don't want to come to terms with the fact that you're incorrect on several unnumbered titles being main entries that happen to not have numbers in the titles.

For fuck sake, Birth By Sleep was featured as the next main entry in K2's secret ending, dude.



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Azuren said:
HylianSwordsman said:

-Snip-

Actual tl;dr You really don't want to come to terms with the fact that you're incorrect on several unnumbered titles being main entries that happen to not have numbers in the titles.

For fuck sake, Birth By Sleep was featured as the next main entry in K2's secret ending, dude.

While I've only skimmed through HylianSwordsman's reply to me (will read through it properly later, and give my reply), it does appear that he is attempting to explain his reasoning, and is open to having a proper discussion about it.

When someone replies that way, you should try to do the same in your reply to them. If you disagree with their reasoning, or find that it doesn't adequately support their argument, explain why. Rather than just saying "you don't want to come to terms with".

More like your second paragraph, which may be a fair point to bring up.

Near the end of Kingdom Hearts 1, you fight a Secret Boss (Unknown) who is a major character in the next chapter of the story.
And after the end credits you see a secret movie of events from that game.

Near the end of Kingdom Hearts 2, you fight a Secret Boss (Lingering Will) who is a major character in the next chapter of the story.
And after the end credits you see a secret movie of events from that game.

Last edited by Hiku - on 31 May 2019