Again, clearly you still haven't read the definition of spinoff. And yes, average viewers can understand Avengers without watching the rest of the MCU movies. They just won't be as invested in the characters if they don't watch the other movies. You don't have to watch the Iron Man movies to get Iron Man. He's Batman, but with robotics genius instead of self-taught martial arts, and he makes his own gadgets. You don't have to watch The Incredible Hulk to get the Hulk. He's just "Hulk Smash!" and that's about it. Radiation or something made him that way, now he's strong. Hawk Eye and Black Widow never got movies yet that didn't stop people from getting their characters in the movie, they just cared less about those characters. Russian Spy Girl Femme Fatale and Guy With Special Arrows And Uncanny Aim, we get it. Thor is just Thor, the literal god of thunder from Norse mythology, except those gods are aliens and their magic is technology, but you don't really have to think about how it works so whatever. That just leaves Captain America, which is the most self explanatory superhero not called Superman. He's a super soldier from WWII frozen until today, and he's super patriotic themed. They're all very easy to understand, and from there everything you need to know is contained within the Avengers movie. If you like those characters, you can go see the other movies, but you don't need to watch all the superhero movies to watch Avengers.

Again, I've played them all, and I get that the numbered games are difficult to understand without the context of the side-stories, but they're still spin-offs. They fit the most straightforward understanding of what a spin-off is. And I still don't get why you're so worked up about it. I'm guessing you still don't care to share?

Coming from the person who calls integral chapters of a story spin-offs just because they lack a number in the title, your words lack a lot of weight. And no, they can't. It's literally why my sister-in-law hated Infinity War- she had no idea who anyone was or why the Infinity Stones were important because she doesn't watch Marvel movies. No matter how much you try to play the "but Batman is Batman, everyone knows Batman" card, Infinity War and Endgame have a plot that you need to watch specific Marvel Movies for. Marvel movies that you could consider spin-offs of Avengers, or at very least spin-offs of Iron Man. Your argument falls flat out of the gate on this one.

And they're not difficult to understand. They're impossible. You're talking about literally 75% of the series prior to the release of Kingdom Hearts 3, and that's not counting Fragmentary Passage. Players wouldn't know who Terra, Aqua, Ventus, Xion, or Eraqus are. Players wouldn't know why Apprentice Xehanort is an old bald dude now. Players wouldn't know why Axel keeps having flashbacks of a girl he doesn't know. Players wouldn't know why Organization members are returning, or why Time Travel is suddenly a thing, or why Sora is so weak, or why Riku and Mickey are going to the Realm of Darkness. Hell, players wouldn't know why they didn't go sooner. The only aspect of "spin-off" that they fit is that they don't have numbers in the titles in a series where literally some of the games have sequential numbering.

We're not talking about the year Daxter spent as an exterminator while he was looking for Jak. We're not talking about the details surrounding Shadow the Hedgehog's inconsequential time spent with Maria. We're not talking about the time everyone in the Mushroom Kingdom stopped what they were doing to have a go-kart race. We're talking about things like how the actual plot of KH3 was set up and explained in another game, and without playing that game you're expected to sit there and say

And the reason it matters is because calling the majority of the series "spin-offs" devalues their perceived impact on the story. If that notion wasn't correct, then guess what? The leading complaint on the game wouldn't be that no one knew what was going on.

Your sister is one person. I have friends that only watched the Avengers movies and liked them and felt that they understood them well enough. My dad also didn't watch the others and picked and choose which ones he wanted to watch. And I've never read the comics, yet I still feel this way. The characters are that self explanatory, their origin stories that irrelevant to the plot of the Avengers movies. So no, my Avengers argument is fine.

I've said before that I love the spinoff games. I'll repeat what I said earlier: "I'm not trying to undermine some of my favorite Kingdom Hearts games by calling them spinoffs. I'm just saying I wish the presentation was different, and no, not just with a superficial numbering system." To add to that, the numbering system is just a symptom of the larger problem, namely that an artistic decision was made to present the story in a certain way (and not a good way as far as I'm concerned), and the numbering system was made to represent that decision right in the titles. The only advantage to how they did things was that they got to experiment with the battle system a lot by creating spinoffs, and that created some interesting and fun battle systems, though none I would want to replace the main series' system.

And no, simply playing all the spin-offs wouldn't help everyone understand what's going on. It's a running joke even amongst diehard fans that the series is overly convoluted. I thought forevercloud3000 put it pretty well earlier: "Many of the Entries of KH games after 2 feel like Assassin's Creed level of "Spin off but A sequel but not". Those games wore the continuity out way too thin. And the a few elements they did add in are so boisterously convoluted they muddle the experience of KH3 once we finally got there. I am not alone in saying KH3 was a massive disappointment in the story department mostly due to the plot threads added in from all those portable titles."

And I'll ask again, why are you fighting this so hard? You're not going to convince me. I have the definition backing me up, and Kingdom Hearts cited as examples of that definition. That's enough for me. Just let me have my view. You're just like the other gatekeeping people before you. Sorry dude, but I don't have to agree with you to be a Kingdom Hearts fan. So you can be like Keybladewielder and Basil and Nautilus and white knight the series against me the internet meanie, but it doesn't make you guys any more fans of the game than me. I seriously cannot wrap my head around why you're so offended by the fact that I consider the non-numbered games to be spinoffs. Disagree with me if you must, but you're going to have to accept that I disagree with you.

Your dad is one person. Thanks for providing me the very argument necessary to disregard that entire paragraph.

Okay, so you claim they're spin-offs, but also claim the numbering system is an issue? Sounds like you're having an issue deciding one which hill you should die. So I'll reiterate again: the unnumbered titled make up the majority of the series and don't feature mere side stories (though you could definitely make a strong argument for Re:Coded). Days is a parallel story about Roxas that ties into the prologue of KH2 and is necessary to know about Xion. Chain of Memories is sequentially after KH1 and players would have no idea what was going on in the beginning oh KH2. Birth By Sleep sets up six important main characters, including the true form of the series antagonist. Dream Drop Distance is the same as Chain of Memories in that it picks up immediately after KH2. These aren't spin-offs, they are major chapters in a series that will leave you behind if you miss even one.

And I already answered your question. Multiple times. Here it is again: referring to these important main entries of the series as spin-offs sets them up as optional games for the story. The result is people thinking that they can play three titles in Kingdom Hearts and have a grasp on the story, only to realize they were dead wrong.

Of course he is. I only mentioned him to prove my point that I can just as easily cite example to the contrary, so don't use anecdotal evidence.

I've explained this multiple times. They're spinoffs. I have no issue with the numbering system. I have an issue with how the story was presented. Take Chain of Memories for instance. Why the fuck does it exist as a game? There's so little actual plot in that game, so little real substance, it's mostly just wandering through watered down versions of places we've already been. What little actual plot there was could have been a part of KH2. The whole game could have, honestly, in an extremely abridged form that skipped the endless revisiting of old content, by just having Castle Oblivion be the 1st world, condensing all the actual story moments into an interesting prologue. Just one example of how they could have done it, I'm sure you could come up with a better one with enough time, just please, not the way they actually did it. Of course if did neglect to make Chain of Memories a separate game, then we wouldn't have had that glorious card battle system, oh what a tragedy. But yeah, you're proving my point about how the story is presented. It's just so obnoxious. They are spinoffs, but that's not what makes it obnoxious. Like forevercloud3000 said below, they wear the continuity too thin.

No, I'm asking a different question there. I know what your point is, but I disagree. What I don't get is why you're so emotional over this. So many people in this thread got up in arms about this. You're not going to convince me, so why bother? I'm going to keep playing Kingdom Hearts game, having this opinion, and sharing this opinion when I talk about Kingdom Hearts with other people. No one in this thread will change that. Your gatekeeping changes nothing, because you're not the arbiter of who gets to be a KH fan.

Of course he is. I only mentioned him to prove my point that I can just as easily cite example to the contrary, so don't use anecdotal evidence.

I've explained this multiple times. They're spinoffs. I have no issue with the numbering system. I have an issue with how the story was presented. Take Chain of Memories for instance. Why the fuck does it exist as a game? There's so little actual plot in that game, so little real substance, it's mostly just wandering through watered down versions of places we've already been. What little actual plot there was could have been a part of KH2. The whole game could have, honestly, in an extremely abridged form that skipped the endless revisiting of old content, by just having Castle Oblivion be the 1st world, condensing all the actual story moments into an interesting prologue. Just one example of how they could have done it, I'm sure you could come up with a better one with enough time, just please, not the way they actually did it. Of course if did neglect to make Chain of Memories a separate game, then we wouldn't have had that glorious card battle system, oh what a tragedy. But yeah, you're proving my point about how the story is presented. It's just so obnoxious. They are spinoffs, but that's not what makes it obnoxious. Like forevercloud3000 said below, they wear the continuity too thin.

No, I'm asking a different question there. I know what your point is, but I disagree. What I don't get is why you're so emotional over this. So many people in this thread got up in arms about this. You're not going to convince me, so why bother? I'm going to keep playing Kingdom Hearts game, having this opinion, and sharing this opinion when I talk about Kingdom Hearts with other people. No one in this thread will change that. Your gatekeeping changes nothing, because you're not the arbiter of who gets to be a KH fan.

Of course he is. I only mentioned him to prove my point that I can just as easily cite example to the contrary, so don't use anecdotal evidence.

I've explained this multiple times. They're spinoffs. I have no issue with the numbering system. I have an issue with how the story was presented. Take Chain of Memories for instance. Why the fuck does it exist as a game? There's so little actual plot in that game, so little real substance, it's mostly just wandering through watered down versions of places we've already been. What little actual plot there was could have been a part of KH2. The whole game could have, honestly, in an extremely abridged form that skipped the endless revisiting of old content, by just having Castle Oblivion be the 1st world, condensing all the actual story moments into an interesting prologue. Just one example of how they could have done it, I'm sure you could come up with a better one with enough time, just please, not the way they actually did it. Of course if did neglect to make Chain of Memories a separate game, then we wouldn't have had that glorious card battle system, oh what a tragedy. But yeah, you're proving my point about how the story is presented. It's just so obnoxious. They are spinoffs, but that's not what makes it obnoxious. Like forevercloud3000 said below, they wear the continuity too thin.

No, I'm asking a different question there. I know what your point is, but I disagree. What I don't get is why you're so emotional over this. So many people in this thread got up in arms about this. You're not going to convince me, so why bother? I'm going to keep playing Kingdom Hearts game, having this opinion, and sharing this opinion when I talk about Kingdom Hearts with other people. No one in this thread will change that. Your gatekeeping changes nothing, because you're not the arbiter of who gets to be a KH fan.

Of course he is. I only mentioned him to prove my point that I can just as easily cite example to the contrary, so don't use anecdotal evidence.

I've explained this multiple times. They're spinoffs. I have no issue with the numbering system. I have an issue with how the story was presented. Take Chain of Memories for instance. Why the fuck does it exist as a game? There's so little actual plot in that game, so little real substance, it's mostly just wandering through watered down versions of places we've already been. What little actual plot there was could have been a part of KH2. The whole game could have, honestly, in an extremely abridged form that skipped the endless revisiting of old content, by just having Castle Oblivion be the 1st world, condensing all the actual story moments into an interesting prologue. Just one example of how they could have done it, I'm sure you could come up with a better one with enough time, just please, not the way they actually did it. Of course if did neglect to make Chain of Memories a separate game, then we wouldn't have had that glorious card battle system, oh what a tragedy. But yeah, you're proving my point about how the story is presented. It's just so obnoxious. They are spinoffs, but that's not what makes it obnoxious. Like forevercloud3000 said below, they wear the continuity too thin.

No, I'm asking a different question there. I know what your point is, but I disagree. What I don't get is why you're so emotional over this. So many people in this thread got up in arms about this. You're not going to convince me, so why bother? I'm going to keep playing Kingdom Hearts game, having this opinion, and sharing this opinion when I talk about Kingdom Hearts with other people. No one in this thread will change that. Your gatekeeping changes nothing, because you're not the arbiter of who gets to be a KH fan.

Honestly, at this point I've given up with you. I don't know what part of being a main, integral entry in n overarching story isn't getting through to you, but apparently your brain seems to be stuck in "NO NUMBER IN TITLE? MUST BE A SPIN-OFF" mode. The fact remains that they aren't spin-offs, they're main entries that don't have numbers in the titles because, as we all know, Kingdom Hearts naming convention is a meme. You can scream at the top of your lungs that they are spin-offs, and like I said before you could make that argument for titles like Re:coded (which, if we're honest, only explains one thing that no one cared about). But titles like Chain of Memories, Birth by Sleep, and Dream Drop Distance are as integral to the overall narrative as any of the titles that arbitrarily have numbers in them.

No one is screaming but you dude. Refer to the definition. The fact remains that they're spinoffs by definition. You've yet to answer that with anything but a "nuh-uh, you're wrong!"