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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Kingdom Hearts III DLC 'Re:Mind' announced

Azuren said:
Nautilus said:

Prove that I didnt.

You could argue that Verizon cell phone game was a spin-off.

That said, none of the other games released could be considered "spin-offs", since they all tell an integral part of a larger over-arching story. It's like trying to say anything that isn't Avengers-branded is an MCU spin-off.

And I agree with you.Its the other user that thinks that when a game dont have a number next to it, it is to be considered a spin off.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

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Azuren said:
Nautilus said:

Prove that I didnt.

You could argue that Verizon cell phone game was a spin-off.

That said, none of the other games released could be considered "spin-offs", since they all tell an integral part of a larger over-arching story. It's like trying to say anything that isn't Avengers-branded is an MCU spin-off.

The main 3 games tell the story of the main character Sora in his battle against the main villain. The side stories are well integrated into the main story, but they are still side stories. Even the article I cited used Kingdom Hearts as an example of a series with tons of spin-offs. 

And no, your MCU example doesn't work. MCU is a universe. If Avengers were the main series, then yes, the Iron man movies, Captain America movies, etc would all be spinoffs of Avengers. They all take place within the MCU. If you don't consider Avengers the main series, but just a series that takes place within the MCU, then all the series are just IPs with stories that interrelate. Harry Potter would be another interesting example here. The first 8 movies were a standalone series, and then the "Fantastic Beasts" series was made, which is a spinoff to the first series, even though it contains story details related to events in the first series.

What I don't get is why everyone is so damn upset by this. Who cares how the games are classified? That doesn't decrease their legitimacy, or their fun.



Nautilus said:
HylianSwordsman said:

Liar. Prove it.

Prove that I didnt.

If that's the level of discourse you're sinking to, I don't need to.



HylianSwordsman said:
Azuren said:

You could argue that Verizon cell phone game was a spin-off.

That said, none of the other games released could be considered "spin-offs", since they all tell an integral part of a larger over-arching story. It's like trying to say anything that isn't Avengers-branded is an MCU spin-off.

The main 3 games tell the story of the main character Sora in his battle against the main villain. The side stories are well integrated into the main story, but they are still side stories. Even the article I cited used Kingdom Hearts as an example of a series with tons of spin-offs. 

And no, your MCU example doesn't work. MCU is a universe. If Avengers were the main series, then yes, the Iron man movies, Captain America movies, etc would all be spinoffs of Avengers. They all take place within the MCU. If you don't consider Avengers the main series, but just a series that takes place within the MCU, then all the series are just IPs with stories that interrelate. Harry Potter would be another interesting example here. The first 8 movies were a standalone series, and then the "Fantastic Beasts" series was made, which is a spinoff to the first series, even though it contains story details related to events in the first series.

What I don't get is why everyone is so damn upset by this. Who cares how the games are classified? That doesn't decrease their legitimacy, or their fun.

The three numbered titles tell the perspective of Sora in a much larger plot that, especially in KH3, requires the context of the non-numbered titles.

Those "side stories" aren't side stories. They're integral, especially to KH3. There are literal hours of that game that makes zero sense without playing the non-numbered titles.

There's literally not a single part of the MCU analogy that doesn't work. They're different sections of the same story in the same universe about different characters that all coalesce into a single story about the same overarching plot. Outside of the non-canon Verizon game I mentioned, the only title that even comes close to qualifying as a "spin off" is Union X, but the events of KH3 have shown more now than ever that Union X is setting the series up for the next arc.

Because when people think about spin-offs, they think about junk like Raving Rabids, Fable II Pub Games, and Shadow the Hedgehog.



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Azuren said:
HylianSwordsman said:

The main 3 games tell the story of the main character Sora in his battle against the main villain. The side stories are well integrated into the main story, but they are still side stories. Even the article I cited used Kingdom Hearts as an example of a series with tons of spin-offs. 

And no, your MCU example doesn't work. MCU is a universe. If Avengers were the main series, then yes, the Iron man movies, Captain America movies, etc would all be spinoffs of Avengers. They all take place within the MCU. If you don't consider Avengers the main series, but just a series that takes place within the MCU, then all the series are just IPs with stories that interrelate. Harry Potter would be another interesting example here. The first 8 movies were a standalone series, and then the "Fantastic Beasts" series was made, which is a spinoff to the first series, even though it contains story details related to events in the first series.

What I don't get is why everyone is so damn upset by this. Who cares how the games are classified? That doesn't decrease their legitimacy, or their fun.

The three numbered titles tell the perspective of Sora in a much larger plot that, especially in KH3, requires the context of the non-numbered titles.

Those "side stories" aren't side stories. They're integral, especially to KH3. There are literal hours of that game that makes zero sense without playing the non-numbered titles.

There's literally not a single part of the MCU analogy that doesn't work. They're different sections of the same story in the same universe about different characters that all coalesce into a single story about the same overarching plot. Outside of the non-canon Verizon game I mentioned, the only title that even comes close to qualifying as a "spin off" is Union X, but the events of KH3 have shown more now than ever that Union X is setting the series up for the next arc.

Because when people think about spin-offs, they think about junk like Raving Rabids, Fable II Pub Games, and Shadow the Hedgehog.

Well that's just not what spinoffs means, dude. Sorry. And side stories can have important plot points that inform your understanding of the main story, that doesn't stop them from being side stories. And no, MCU isn't "different sections of the same story". They're different series. You don't have to watch any of them to understand the Avengers series. You don't have to watch any series within the MCU to understand any other series. That's why the MCU does so well.

Also, you undermine your own point by including Shadow the Hedgehog. It's a spinoff, but it includes story points that intertwine with the story points of SA2. Spinoff also aren't junk. Is that why this upsets you so much? Because you think spinoff inherently means junk? Luigi's Mansion, Metroid Prime, Mario Kart, all the Metroidvania-style Castlevanias, Persona, Mega Man X, Donkey Kong Country, for that matter even Super Mario Bros. (also technically a spinoff of Donkey Kong) were all spinoffs that became their own much beloved game series. I'm not trying to undermine some of my favorite Kingdom Hearts games by calling them spinoffs. I'm just saying I wish the presentation was different, and no, not just with a superficial numbering system.



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HylianSwordsman said:
Nautilus said:

Prove that I didnt.

If that's the level of discourse you're sinking to, I don't need to.

LOL

You are saying that its as if I started it... oh wait...



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Many of the Entries of KH games after 2 feel like Assassin's Creed level of "Spin off but A sequel but not". Those games wore the continuity out way too thin. And the a few elements they did add in are so boisterously convoluted they muddle the experience of KH3 once we finally got there. I am not alone in saying KH3 was a massive disappointment in the story department mostly due to the plot threads added in from all those portable titles. My company's stores have massive amounts of trade ins with most people reflecting some level of dissatisfaction with the game.

Spin Off or not, the bouncing between different platforms greatly hampered gamer's ability to keep up with what was happening in the story, and releasing mega collections for the PS3/4 only partially remedied that because the threads just don't come together neatly at all.

The lack of FF characters in KH3 really was the killing blow for me. I got into the series for the FF, not the Disney. Albeit I will say the Disney element is as solid as ever in KH3. The omission of so many staples to the MAIN series like the Colesium and Sephiroth battle just really frustrates me. You might subscribe to Nomura's excuse of "focus", but I have the strong hunch we will see some of this appear as paid DLC and that is just criminal when KH3 has decidedly less content then previous entries, even the handheld ones.



      

      

      

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HylianSwordsman said:
Azuren said:

The three numbered titles tell the perspective of Sora in a much larger plot that, especially in KH3, requires the context of the non-numbered titles.

Those "side stories" aren't side stories. They're integral, especially to KH3. There are literal hours of that game that makes zero sense without playing the non-numbered titles.

There's literally not a single part of the MCU analogy that doesn't work. They're different sections of the same story in the same universe about different characters that all coalesce into a single story about the same overarching plot. Outside of the non-canon Verizon game I mentioned, the only title that even comes close to qualifying as a "spin off" is Union X, but the events of KH3 have shown more now than ever that Union X is setting the series up for the next arc.

Because when people think about spin-offs, they think about junk like Raving Rabids, Fable II Pub Games, and Shadow the Hedgehog.

Well that's just not what spinoffs means, dude. Sorry. And side stories can have important plot points that inform your understanding of the main story, that doesn't stop them from being side stories. And no, MCU isn't "different sections of the same story". They're different series. You don't have to watch any of them to understand the Avengers series. You don't have to watch any series within the MCU to understand any other series. That's why the MCU does so well.

Also, you undermine your own point by including Shadow the Hedgehog. It's a spinoff, but it includes story points that intertwine with the story points of SA2. Spinoff also aren't junk. Is that why this upsets you so much? Because you think spinoff inherently means junk? Luigi's Mansion, Metroid Prime, Mario Kart, all the Metroidvania-style Castlevanias, Persona, Mega Man X, Donkey Kong Country, for that matter even Super Mario Bros. (also technically a spinoff of Donkey Kong) were all spinoffs that became their own much beloved game series. I'm not trying to undermine some of my favorite Kingdom Hearts games by calling them spinoffs. I'm just saying I wish the presentation was different, and no, not just with a superficial numbering system.

Sorry, you're wrong. You know what the single biggest complaint about KH3 was? People didn't know what was going on because they assumed every other title was just a spin off and not a main entry. They might not be numbered, but they're not spin-offs. They don't just have important plot elements in them, they tell entire sections of the plot that are necessary to understand the majority of Kingdom Hearts 3. And if you think you don't have to watch any of the other MCU movies to understand Avengers... I mean wow, man. To a comic guy, yeah. I can figure it out because there's source material I can reference internally and come to conclusions. But average viewers?

Intertwining with a story and being absolutely integral to the story-telling process are two different things. You think Chain of Memories is a spin-off, but it's a full-fledged game with a second scenario and without it the player would have no idea why the game starts with Sora in stasis. From running through a field to waking up inside a big white sleeping lotus. You think Dream Drop Distance is a spin-off, but without it the player would have absolutely no idea why everyone is hanging out at Yen Sid's Tower and why Xehanort is suddenly everywhere. From reading a letter on the beach to having failed an entire Mastery Exam and losing all of your power after nearly falling to darkness. Shadow the Hedgehog gives additional details on something inconsequential to the plot of SA2. Non-numbered Kingdom Hearts titles are literally the next sequential act in the same plot.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

Azuren said:
HylianSwordsman said:

Well that's just not what spinoffs means, dude. Sorry. And side stories can have important plot points that inform your understanding of the main story, that doesn't stop them from being side stories. And no, MCU isn't "different sections of the same story". They're different series. You don't have to watch any of them to understand the Avengers series. You don't have to watch any series within the MCU to understand any other series. That's why the MCU does so well.

Also, you undermine your own point by including Shadow the Hedgehog. It's a spinoff, but it includes story points that intertwine with the story points of SA2. Spinoff also aren't junk. Is that why this upsets you so much? Because you think spinoff inherently means junk? Luigi's Mansion, Metroid Prime, Mario Kart, all the Metroidvania-style Castlevanias, Persona, Mega Man X, Donkey Kong Country, for that matter even Super Mario Bros. (also technically a spinoff of Donkey Kong) were all spinoffs that became their own much beloved game series. I'm not trying to undermine some of my favorite Kingdom Hearts games by calling them spinoffs. I'm just saying I wish the presentation was different, and no, not just with a superficial numbering system.

Sorry, you're wrong. You know what the single biggest complaint about KH3 was? People didn't know what was going on because they assumed every other title was just a spin off and not a main entry. They might not be numbered, but they're not spin-offs. They don't just have important plot elements in them, they tell entire sections of the plot that are necessary to understand the majority of Kingdom Hearts 3. And if you think you don't have to watch any of the other MCU movies to understand Avengers... I mean wow, man. To a comic guy, yeah. I can figure it out because there's source material I can reference internally and come to conclusions. But average viewers?

Intertwining with a story and being absolutely integral to the story-telling process are two different things. You think Chain of Memories is a spin-off, but it's a full-fledged game with a second scenario and without it the player would have no idea why the game starts with Sora in stasis. From running through a field to waking up inside a big white sleeping lotus. You think Dream Drop Distance is a spin-off, but without it the player would have absolutely no idea why everyone is hanging out at Yen Sid's Tower and why Xehanort is suddenly everywhere. From reading a letter on the beach to having failed an entire Mastery Exam and losing all of your power after nearly falling to darkness. Shadow the Hedgehog gives additional details on something inconsequential to the plot of SA2. Non-numbered Kingdom Hearts titles are literally the next sequential act in the same plot.

Again, clearly you still haven't read the definition of spinoff. And yes, average viewers can understand Avengers without watching the rest of the MCU movies. They just won't be as invested in the characters if they don't watch the other movies. You don't have to watch the Iron Man movies to get Iron Man. He's Batman, but with robotics genius instead of self-taught martial arts, and he makes his own gadgets. You don't have to watch The Incredible Hulk to get the Hulk. He's just "Hulk Smash!" and that's about it. Radiation or something made him that way, now he's strong. Hawk Eye and Black Widow never got movies yet that didn't stop people from getting their characters in the movie, they just cared less about those characters. Russian Spy Girl Femme Fatale and Guy With Special Arrows And Uncanny Aim, we get it. Thor is just Thor, the literal god of thunder from Norse mythology, except those gods are aliens and their magic is technology, but you don't really have to think about how it works so whatever. That just leaves Captain America, which is the most self explanatory superhero not called Superman. He's a super soldier from WWII frozen until today, and he's super patriotic themed. They're all very easy to understand, and from there everything you need to know is contained within the Avengers movie. If you like those characters, you can go see the other movies, but you don't need to watch all the superhero movies to watch Avengers.

Again, I've played them all, and I get that the numbered games are difficult to understand without the context of the side-stories, but they're still spin-offs. They fit the most straightforward understanding of what a spin-off is. And I still don't get why you're so worked up about it. I'm guessing you still don't care to share?



HylianSwordsman said:
Azuren said:

Sorry, you're wrong. You know what the single biggest complaint about KH3 was? People didn't know what was going on because they assumed every other title was just a spin off and not a main entry. They might not be numbered, but they're not spin-offs. They don't just have important plot elements in them, they tell entire sections of the plot that are necessary to understand the majority of Kingdom Hearts 3. And if you think you don't have to watch any of the other MCU movies to understand Avengers... I mean wow, man. To a comic guy, yeah. I can figure it out because there's source material I can reference internally and come to conclusions. But average viewers?

Intertwining with a story and being absolutely integral to the story-telling process are two different things. You think Chain of Memories is a spin-off, but it's a full-fledged game with a second scenario and without it the player would have no idea why the game starts with Sora in stasis. From running through a field to waking up inside a big white sleeping lotus. You think Dream Drop Distance is a spin-off, but without it the player would have absolutely no idea why everyone is hanging out at Yen Sid's Tower and why Xehanort is suddenly everywhere. From reading a letter on the beach to having failed an entire Mastery Exam and losing all of your power after nearly falling to darkness. Shadow the Hedgehog gives additional details on something inconsequential to the plot of SA2. Non-numbered Kingdom Hearts titles are literally the next sequential act in the same plot.

Again, clearly you still haven't read the definition of spinoff. And yes, average viewers can understand Avengers without watching the rest of the MCU movies. They just won't be as invested in the characters if they don't watch the other movies. You don't have to watch the Iron Man movies to get Iron Man. He's Batman, but with robotics genius instead of self-taught martial arts, and he makes his own gadgets. You don't have to watch The Incredible Hulk to get the Hulk. He's just "Hulk Smash!" and that's about it. Radiation or something made him that way, now he's strong. Hawk Eye and Black Widow never got movies yet that didn't stop people from getting their characters in the movie, they just cared less about those characters. Russian Spy Girl Femme Fatale and Guy With Special Arrows And Uncanny Aim, we get it. Thor is just Thor, the literal god of thunder from Norse mythology, except those gods are aliens and their magic is technology, but you don't really have to think about how it works so whatever. That just leaves Captain America, which is the most self explanatory superhero not called Superman. He's a super soldier from WWII frozen until today, and he's super patriotic themed. They're all very easy to understand, and from there everything you need to know is contained within the Avengers movie. If you like those characters, you can go see the other movies, but you don't need to watch all the superhero movies to watch Avengers.

Again, I've played them all, and I get that the numbered games are difficult to understand without the context of the side-stories, but they're still spin-offs. They fit the most straightforward understanding of what a spin-off is. And I still don't get why you're so worked up about it. I'm guessing you still don't care to share?

Coming from the person who calls integral chapters of a story spin-offs just because they lack a number in the title, your words lack a lot of weight. And no, they can't. It's literally why my sister-in-law hated Infinity War- she had no idea who anyone was or why the Infinity Stones were important because she doesn't watch Marvel movies. No matter how much you try to play the "but Batman is Batman, everyone knows Batman" card, Infinity War and Endgame have a plot that you need to watch specific Marvel Movies for. Marvel movies that you could consider spin-offs of Avengers, or at very least spin-offs of Iron Man. Your argument falls flat out of the gate on this one.

And they're not difficult to understand. They're impossible. You're talking about literally 75% of the series prior to the release of Kingdom Hearts 3, and that's not counting Fragmentary Passage. Players wouldn't know who Terra, Aqua, Ventus, Xion, or Eraqus are. Players wouldn't know why Apprentice Xehanort is an old bald dude now. Players wouldn't know why Axel keeps having flashbacks of a girl he doesn't know. Players wouldn't know why Organization members are returning, or why Time Travel is suddenly a thing, or why Sora is so weak, or why Riku and Mickey are going to the Realm of Darkness. Hell, players wouldn't know why they didn't go sooner. The only aspect of "spin-off" that they fit is that they don't have numbers in the titles in a series where literally some of the games have sequential numbering.

We're not talking about the year Daxter spent as an exterminator while he was looking for Jak. We're not talking about the details surrounding Shadow the Hedgehog's inconsequential time spent with Maria. We're not talking about the time everyone in the Mushroom Kingdom stopped what they were doing to have a go-kart race. We're talking about things like how the actual plot of KH3 was set up and explained in another game, and without playing that game you're expected to sit there and say

 

And the reason it matters is because calling the majority of the series "spin-offs" devalues their perceived impact on the story. If that notion wasn't correct, then guess what? The leading complaint on the game wouldn't be that no one knew what was going on.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames