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Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

 

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 10 14.93%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 40 59.70%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 17 25.37%
 
Total:67
o_O.Q said:
eva01beserk said:

Dont forget, gender is also a social construct, lgbt is not a choice.

its just the glaring inconsistency that gets me every time with these things

i mean yes gender is a social construct to an extent but its also mostly derived from our sex and to deny that is lunacy

It's only inconsistent because you want it to be.

No one denies biological sex. Everyone is born in one of two (except for Intersex people). Biological sex and gender are different things. Gender is a social construct in the sense that what each gender is expected to do and how each gender is expected to behave are mostly socially created and have nothing to do with biology.

People are born with a biological sex, a gender and a sexuality. The latter two cannot be changed, they can only be discovered. In like 99% of the cases, the biological sex matches the gender. When it doesn't, that person is transgender. Being transgender doesn't mean the person identifies with the opposite gender (male-female), it just means they don't identify with a gender that matches their biological sex. They can not identify as any gender, for example.

Being LGBT+ is not a choice. You are born being LGBT+. Only the most crazily extremist think that everything is a social construct, but so few people think that you might as well dismiss it. You only think of it as inconsistent because you think of the LGBT+ community as a single, unified group, and with the ideas of the most extremist individuals in that group.



B O I

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o_O.Q said:
LuccaCardoso1 said:

Identity is about who you are. For example, male. Sexuality is about who you're sexually attracted to. For example, bisexual.

Indentity and sexuality are independent, one does not restrict the other. Therefore, they have nothing to do with each other.

You'll only know who you're sexually attracted to once you hit puberty, but you can know who you are much earlier.

and you don't think your perception of who you are is impacted by your body? really?

Yes, in the majority of cases, who you are matches how you look like from birth. That still has nothing to do with sexuality.



B O I

It is 100% abuse. Some of these children are young enough that they don't know they shouldn't stick random things in their mouth, yet we are going to go with the premise that they are mature enough to know they aren't the sex they were at birth? Come on. Children have incredible imaginations and say and do some crazy things, but that doesn't mean we need to reinforce every thought in their head. Children have to learn that Santa isn't real and that they can't be a real superhero with powers, so they need to come to grips with reality in this topic, too.

And this isn't even taking into account that children go through phases. Maybe a boy is curious and tries on his mom's clothes. It is absolutely abusive for the parents to start putting in their heads that that means they want to be a girl and have gender dysphoria, so must start taking hormones or have surgeries. It's no different than the despicable parents of that 11 or 12 yr old drag kid who they had stripping in a gay club and taking pics with a naked adult drag queen. A lot of it seems like the parents wanting to get brownie points with others in the radical Left.

Now, if that child becomes an adult, say 17/18 (at which point they are mainly finished puberty), and still feels that way about themselves, then by all means they can do whatever they want to their own bodies. They get no hate from me. But, it is wrong to get these kids doing something harmful to their bodies before they are actually mature enough to know exactly what they want and how they feel. Things that can not be reversed 100%.



I am vehemently against this idea that the child knows what's best for them. If we take that idea to an extreme, the child would eat candy until their teeth rot away, watch TV and play video games but not study at all and have no order, discipline or guidance from a role model. The best way should be to tell the child they are too young to consider this stuff and to let their brain develope and grow. The idea that children know what's best for them is a bit silly since the job of a parent is to raise them right, not let their instincts decide their life but rather morals and ideals and to be a good role model. Children say stupid things all the time and we shouldn't oblige everything they say or let them do whatever they want. That's not to say we don't listen to them at all. Listen to them and let them speak as much as they are willing to share because that gives you input in their personalities and how to raise them right but you can't just let them decide the most important thing sin life at that early age because you know they'll say anything and everything at some point in life. I believe a developed brain is very essential in understanding your identity so I have no idea how anyone can decide who they are without even having one of those.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

LuccaCardoso1 said:
o_O.Q said:

its just the glaring inconsistency that gets me every time with these things

i mean yes gender is a social construct to an extent but its also mostly derived from our sex and to deny that is lunacy

It's only inconsistent because you want it to be.

No one denies biological sex. Everyone is born in one of two (except for Intersex people). Biological sex and gender are different things. Gender is a social construct in the sense that what each gender is expected to do and how each gender is expected to behave are mostly socially created and have nothing to do with biology.

People are born with a biological sex, a gender and a sexuality. The latter two cannot be changed, they can only be discovered. In like 99% of the cases, the biological sex matches the gender. When it doesn't, that person is transgender. Being transgender doesn't mean the person identifies with the opposite gender (male-female), it just means they don't identify with a gender that matches their biological sex. They can not identify as any gender, for example.

Being LGBT+ is not a choice. You are born being LGBT+. Only the most crazily extremist think that everything is a social construct, but so few people think that you might as well dismiss it. You only think of it as inconsistent because you think of the LGBT+ community as a single, unified group, and with the ideas of the most extremist individuals in that group.

"Gender is a social construct in the sense that what each gender is expected to do and how each gender is expected to behave are mostly socially created and have nothing to do with biology."

so why therefore do transsexuals transition if gender has nothing to do with biology?

why can't a transsexual just state they are the other gender and be done with it if that's all it is?

"a gender and a sexuality. The latter two cannot be changed, they can only be discovered."

and yet people change their gender all the time

you just said that gender is socially constructed, which obviously means according to you it must change if the social environment changes correct?

"Being LGBT+ is not a choice."

if its socially constructed as you have said then that means its dictated by society, which imo is pretty much the same thing as saying its a choice

"you think of the LGBT+ community as a single, unified group"

i do? can you elaborate on what my thoughts are on the lgbt community?



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sundin13 said:

Quick side note, I see no reason to dignify o.o's obviously bad faith posts with a response and I suggest others do the same.

eva01beserk said:

But its not a kids believe when the kid has no idea what its talking about. A kid dosent know what it wants, dosent even know whats right or wrong. A kid would die in a day or 2 if left on its own. What makes you think it can decide this. Its like a religion, if taught  from early enough a kid will not question anything and in some cases be extreme like hating others,, wanting gays killed and other shit. Yes they grow out of it when the parents or church dont have as much influence on them but it still makes thouse kids outcast in a regular school for the believe they dont hold anymore. It leaves scars as much as you say is reversible.

Parents or guardians should definitely force their believe on young children. Its only natural to live the same as a family. But as the kid grows up if the kid does not like the way of life the kid should be allowed to be what it wants. Its called parenting. Be there when they need you, and let them be their own person when they dont need you. The key is knowing when kids need you or not.

Not downplaying what any groups suffered. Im downplaying what society in large considers abuse these days. I think people have become this oversensitive crystal that is going to brake unless everything goes 100% their way. Again, I dont need to go far to look at some points:

You continue to say that a kid doesn't understand, however you have yet to actually back that up. Others have provided information indicating that children do understand gender and on occasion do experience gender dysphoria.

Besides that, again you use the mistreatment of transgendered individuals as an argument against transition. It's still a bad argument.

Then from there, you get into a truly bizarre parenting point which you've already made clear doesn't go both ways. You say that parents should force their beliefs on children but as soon as the conversation turns away from forcing cis identity to forcing trans identity that position seems to quickly go away.

And finally you use a silly anecdote to again make light of the abuse that trans individuals face.

It appears that we've reached the end of the conversation.

If that is what you took from what Ive been saying. Then yes, this is the end.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

LuccaCardoso1 said:
o_O.Q said:

and you don't think your perception of who you are is impacted by your body? really?

Yes, in the majority of cases, who you are matches how you look like from birth. That still has nothing to do with sexuality.

it does because the same connection between "how you look like" and "who you are" exists with "who you are attracted to"

typically males will identify as men and be attracted to women... there is clearly a link between all 3, but obviously in some cases they do not line up

to reiterate to argue that there is no link between the 3 is lunacy



Torillian said:
Immersiveunreality said:

The comparisons you make are a bit ridiculous .

How can you even start comparing making children eat vegetables to deforming their image about their gender that when wrongly used can result into lifetime depression,did you ever meet someone in depression because of eating vegetables as a child? Because yes we all had to endure it and im sure depression over it is almost nonexistent.

If we discuss suffering in this thread we are clearly not discussing it on the same level as children learning eating food or having to clean their room and it makes me wonder if you even have the slightest bit of understanding about mental health when you bring that up to make a point.

Bolded: The people in this thread would like to have you notice that not all children are willingly having any saying into that situation and that not all children are capable to make a decision about such a mental deforming important matter yet till they are older and to counter you i do find it disgusting to ignore this reasoning because by doing that you erase the individual child to serve the ideology.

Again, stop just asserting that supporting a child in their gender identity is bad for them and show me the evidence. I've got research showing that trans youth who were supported in their transition have no different suicide rate than the general population. So, if you want to make the claim that supporting a child in that manner is causing them suffering then show me something other than your assertion. 

How in the ever living fuck is supporting a child in whatever they decide about their gender (even if they change it more than once) erasing the individual child? Seriously, draw that link for me. Because I have never said that forcing a child in either direction is the way to go so obviously that first part doesn't apply, and I've seen no research that supporting a child who thinks their trans who later decides otherwise is detrimental. 

No you better just stop seeing everything so black or white while also assuming thoughts onto others,no one is telling you that supporting a child is bad but you just cant seem to look past that and good you have research showing that they do not have higher suicide rates for trans while ignoring all the counterinfo at the same time.(It is also sad that you think no different suicide rates equals in no suffering even if when that is a faulthy claim)

The transgender community as a whole has a higher suicide rate and the ones that are forcefully included in it belong to that community and if you cannot grasp why people that deal with identity problems have a higher chance at being depressed then i fear you really are not open for discussion.

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20174218

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/special-reports/impact-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-suicide-risk-implications-assessment-and-treatment

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4874761/

Again pay attention,there is nothing wrong with supporting a child but not all of these cases are supporting the child and the concern of people in this thread are for those children and none is against the whole concept but there is still a lot of work needed to make this practice more safe for children because parents can be twisted.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/6-year-old-boy-forced-to-live-as-a-girl-while-mom-threatens-dad-for-not-goi

http://www.mafamily.org/human-sexuality/daddys-boy-forced-to-be-mommys-girl/10075/

http://www.theunknownbutnothidden.com/boy-forced-girl-controversial-nature-vs-nurture-experiment/

People show concern for the children and that should be a good thing so just stop making your assumptions that it must be because they think supporting gender identity is bad and read their posts again before you go on with the hyperbole accuses.



Ka-pi96 said:
Well agreeing with your children (even when they're wrong) certainly isn't child abuse. Playing make believe is just something children do, so as long as it doesn't get out of hand or dangerous, why not let them?

Indeed and most would likely agree with that.



I think there are some weird notions going around in this thread.

1) People overestimate how much agency children have over their opinions by a lot. As a parent, you can tell your child pretty much anything you want and your child will copy that belief. A child's life depends on their parents. Even children who are being sexually abused will side with the parent who abuses them, which is the number one reason why child abuse is so horrible and has so many terrible effects even decades later. To use another example: A child knowing what a boy is and what a girl is (and what typical gender stereotypes are) doesn't mean the child has any idea what it means to be the other gender. 

2) This can be abused both ways. Parents pushing children towards seeing themselves as transgender abuse their child. And parents who refuse to allow their child to express themselves also abuse their child. Of course, since this is a political discussion, the usual blindness on the left / right eye pops up again for a lot of people and the problem is seen in a way too one-sided manner.

Personally, I think children should express themselves in which ever way they want but we should keep hard labels out of this as much as possible.The human body only fully diverges into the male / female dichotomy once puberty hits. Men and women are physically way further apart than girls and boys are, so children cannot fully grasp what this means. So in this regard I very firmly agree with the political right. I agree with the political left, though, when it comes to fully expressing yourself. If my child insisted on wearing clothes made for the other gender and this wasn't caused by me or my wife's political opinions, why would I refuse my son / daughter that wish? My main point is that things should stay playful and we shouldn't put hard labels on children if it can be avoided. Children are children, let them not worry too much about all the crap in life as long as they are young. I neither agree with conservatives who tell their child "girls / boys don't do that" nor progressives who prematurely want to label them as transgender.

I've seen a few stories of transgender couples having "transgender" children - what's the mathematical chance of both parents and their child to all be transgender? This is probably just the case of a child emulating their parents. That being said, as long as we are not talking about hormone therapy for children or manipulating your child into seeing things this way (which, unfortunately, some of these pattens probably do to get media attention), the child can probably grow out of this if his/her parents aren't pushing for anything and the child happens to be among the 65% of children who don't turn out to be transgender in the end.

So in the end, the discussion is blown out of proportions a bit from both sides I think.