Quantcast
At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 8 14.29%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 34 60.71%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 14 25.00%
 
Total:56

A 5 year old boy playing with dolls doesnt mean he identifies as girl and visa versa

Trans parents and any of the lhtb community love to label it as such tho



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Around the Network

For starters, none of the "reassignment surgeries" or treatments for trans people even have a positive effect on trans people. They still end up committing suicide at the same rate. So as far as I'm concerned taking this MASSIVE jump is a mistake. You want to start treating 3 year olds as trans kids, then you need to have some serious evidence. Your heartfelt sympathies is not evidence...

This is the problem with the extreme left. They're jumping the gun and shooting everyone's leg in the process. Shit like this is why, while I used to consider myself a far left voter, I would happily vote Trump in for a second term right now because I don't want to encourage ANY of this nonsense the left is currently pushing. I loved and still love the platform Bernie pushed 4 years ago and I voted for Hillary despite her being a shit candidate, but recent developments are just insane. Trump is the lesser evil here.



sundin13 said:
eva01beserk said:

And somebody showed you research that transitioning does not fix the underline issue and trans are still just as unhappy and is the main reason for the high suicide rate. So its still much higher than the peers who have not had any issues.

I don't believe such research was posted, however, there is research which looks into how transitioning affects transgendered individuals.

Lets take a look:

Hormonal therapy and sex reassignment: a systematic review and meta‐analysis of quality of life and psychosocial outcomes

"Pooling across studies shows that after sex reassignment, 80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in gender dysphoria [and] 80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in quality of life [and] 78% reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms"

"When measured by the Utrecht Gender Dysphoria Scale (UGDS/UGS), FM and MF individuals had minimal gender dysphoria remaining after transition, which was comparable to gender concordant controls without GID and better than dysphoria in untreated individuals with GID. They reported good satisfaction with the new assigned sex, physical appearance, had no doubts about their new gender role or their ability about maintaining this role in the future. Satisfaction with primary and secondary sex characteristics was significantly higher when pre- and posttransition therapy data were compared."

"In most of the included studies, at least two thirds of individuals with GID reported improvement in some aspects of their quality of life such as more stable relationships, better adjustment, satisfaction with sex reassignment, and overall happiness and contentness. In a study by Rehman et al., 27/28 MF individuals reported life becoming easier and more comfortable posttransition."

Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment

"After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population. Improvements in psychological functioning were positively correlated with postsurgical subjective well-being."

"Psychological functioning improved steadily over time, resulting in rates of clinical problems that are indistinguishable from general population samples (eg, percent in the clinical range dropped from 30% to 7% on the YSR/ASR) and quality of life, satisfaction with life, and subjective happiness comparable to same-age peers."

Is hormonal therapy associated with better quality of life in transsexuals? A cross-sectional study.

"Hormonal therapy was significantly associated with higher scores on the social, emotional, and mental QoL dimensions (SF, RE, MH, and MCS).

Hormonal transsexuals presented significantly higher scores on the MH (79.4 16.1 vs. 73.4 2.6, P = 0.02) and GH (79.4 16.1 vs. 69.5 2.3, P = 0.001) dimensions, whereas nonhormonal transsexuals reported lower scores than controls on the RE dimension (54.9 40.7 vs. 86.2 4.1, P = 0.01). …

Another important finding is the disparity between the nonhormonal and the hormonal transsexuals, as hormonal therapy is associated with higher scores of general and MH, whereas the absence of hormones is associated with lower scores of the RE subscale. These results underline the suffering of nonhormonal transsexuals and the probable favorable evolution of their QoL with hormonal therapy in a sex reassignment procedure. Our results suggest the positive psychological effects of hormonal therapy rarely identified in previous reports [2,4]. It seems to suggest that treatment with hormones allows individuals to feel as good or better than controls."

Long-term follow-up: psychosocial outcome of Belgian transsexuals after sex reassignment surgery

In transgendered individuals who underwent sex reassignment surgery "the suicide attempt-rate dropped significantly from 29.3% to 5.1%"

Overall, while general QOL of transgendered individuals tends to be lower than non-transgendered individuals, transitioning to preferred gender does improve QOL for most individuals. Further, transitioning during adolescence is associated with better outcomes than transitioning as an adult. However, all of this needs to be evaluated within the context of societal mistreatment of transgendered individuals. While transitioning does tend to reduce gender dysphoria (the thing that it tends to be considered a treatment for) and improve many measures of QOL, transitioning also comes with societal pressures. We know from a great body of research on suicide that "peer, school, community, and family based rejection, discrimination, and victimization are associated with greater risk for suicidal behaviors".

As such, we should acknowledge that transitioning is an effective method of treating gender dysphoria, however we should also acknowledge that we need to do better as a society at how we treat these individuals if we are truly concerned about their health. Telling these individuals that they cannot or should not undergo treatment (or telling them that their identity is not valid) because of the suicide rate is simply telling them to continue to suffer because we as a society just can't help ourselves from mistreating a trans person. Personally, I do not find that to be a compelling argument against the medical viability of transitioning and I find it to be a major condemnation of the concern trolls who say that we shouldn't allow transgendered people to be treated because of the suicide rates.

Note: Not all of this post is meant as a direct response to you.

When talking about reassignment are you talking about surgery or just hormonal treatment? Only thing I see as diferent is that surgery is expensive so it will tend to be and older person with means to do it, so they might have more sense in what they are doing. Wich brings me to the underline point. We are talking about children here. Some as young as 3. I know nobody here is claiming to give hormones to a todler. But I do belive molding a kid into a diferent mindset cuz it sait something while barely talking is worst.

And at bold. This is what I mean. I mentioned before that oversensitiveness is  major issue because people havent been told no. People call victimization or hate by somebody disagree. Bullies where wort before. I remember being beating for no reason as a kid. Now saying man arent women sends some kids to the psychologist. People should not live in bubles. QoL also does not mean much these days as not having the latest iphones also sends some into depression. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

sundin13 said:
Your OP kind of frames the debate by using some loaded language that isn't really present in the examples. You claim that these parents are pushing their children, however in both examples you provided, it appears that the children are the ones who are being allowed to lead and express their own identities in the way they see fit. In my opinion, the only way to see such a thing as child abuse is if your own biases lead you to believe that Transgender identity is wrong in some way.

The problem with this line of thinking is little children's brains are nowhere near fully developed. Young kids largely have no idea what they want, and it's the responsibility of the parent to "steer the ship" in the right direction for them so-to-speak. Of course they should give them the freedom to make their own choice, but these choices need to start small and grow in significance as the child grows, ie not completely life changing situations at such a young age. If a kid says they'd love to swim with the sharks at 7 years old, do you as a parent let them?

A kid doesn't know at 5 years old if they will truly be happy being a trans person at age 85. 



Follow me on Twitter, fellow gamers! [I typically rant and ramble about mostly Nintendo, indie, retro, and Overwatch related gaming, Metal and hard rock music, Classical Liberal and Cultural Libertarian politics, and bitch about Chicago sports].

@ItsAmeStephen


 

eva01beserk said:

Wich brings me to the underline point. We are talking about children here. Some as young as 3. I know nobody here is claiming to give hormones to a todler. But I do belive molding a kid into a diferent mindset cuz it sait something while barely talking is worst.

And at bold. This is what I mean. I mentioned before that oversensitiveness is  major issue because people havent been told no. People call victimization or hate by somebody disagree. Bullies where wort before. I remember being beating for no reason as a kid. Now saying man arent women sends some kids to the psychologist. People should not live in bubles. QoL also does not mean much these days as not having the latest iphones also sends some into depression. 

Again, we are discussing allowing a child to make their own choices (reversible choices). As others have said numerous times, the question of forced perspective goes both ways. You say that molding a kid into a different mindset is "worst", yet this applies far more to asserting cis-identity upon a child than it does to allowing the child to make their own choices about gender identity. Yes, individuals shouldn't force their perspectives on children. Let this statement go both ways.

As for rest, I don't think that you should downplay the abuses suffered by transgendered individuals. That's a pretty bad look.



Around the Network
NightlyPoe said:

1. Well, the big one these last few weeks has been the insistence that there is no athletic advantage for a biologic male competing against girls. Which is, frankly, stupid. I'll bring up the Congressional testimony if you wish. But it should tell you just how deep the denial is that this is even a point of debate.

2. His theories aren't listened to NOW. But all the way up until the 90s, he was highly influential. The reason being that at the time differences between the sexes was used as a way to state that women were inferior and ill-suited to certain jobs and tasks. Now we've careened into the opposite direction because that's where the "good guys" are. One should always be wary of science when it changes based on the narrative, wouldn't you say?

3. Frankly, it's all so politicized that I don't think either side has their heads on straight and both are in the wrong and are harming people.

4. I do not ignore the issue of gender dysphoria, I treat it as itis, not how someone would want it to be. And how they would want it to be is to make someone sex fluid to what's in the mind and not what it is, purely biological. Assigned by anatomy and DNA (yes, I know that the two are sometimes wonky, but that's really a separate issue).

You bring up suicide rates and the pain. I'm bringing it up as well. What I'm saying is that work should be done to accept what they are. That is the most healthy outcome in the end because it's durable. If you have a woman transitioning to a man, who understands that she will always be a woman but feel more comfortable living life as a man, then that cannot be taken away with words. I ask again, why is it that I can be called a woman all day long and it wouldn't effect my ego at all. The reason is because it's not true and there's no one that can make me doubt it.

5. Been awhile since I studied psychology. Afraid I lost my research on that specific study years ago.

And, yes, some people have low intelligence. Half the population is below average if you can believe it.

6. No, I'm making the issue more complex, but bringing it in line with the reality of the situation. A simple answer is the one we hear all the time, that a woman transitioning to a man is a man.

And you bring up abuse, which I'm against, so I'm going to ignore. Abuse from one direction does not mean that the other direction is completely in the right.

7. You didn't answer the question. You went back to abuse again.

1) People who deny that there are athletic advantages to a male who transitioned to a female, especially after puberty has finished, are in denial of the science.  I don't take much stock in such people.  Denial of the science, science that is well peer reviewed and has gone through the full science rigors, is pretty disqualifying.

Which in general is why more sports need to qualifying and weight/muscle classed.

2) For one thing science is a continuous process.  We understand what we understand with the tools we currently have to understand things.  When we get better tools and better understanding we know better how much we didn't understand in the past.  Plenty of people get degrees in whatever then go off the crazy cliff and make a career about it.  Case in point Dr. Phil.  Gullible people will be gullible no matter what ya do.  People who pay attention, get second opinions, actually read up on stuff are not going to fall for the bullshit these people spout.

One should be wary of all things always.  I don't necessarily believe in the guy spouting the inferiority of whomever just because of anecdotal evidence or 'feelings'.  What scientific evidence can you point to that people are claiming says there are zero differences between the sexes?  I'll only state that some jobs that have been traditionally male only are not inherently jobs only a man is suited to do.  Where the line is, I don't claim to know.  I'll let time ultimately dictate that.

4) You say you don't ignore the issue of gender dysphoria, but isn't that exactly what you are doing?  You are basically saying biology trumps whatever is in the mind no matter what.  We are not at all purely the sum of our biology.  Someone could be biologically a certain gender but never fit in with the societal norms of that gender.  It seems to me the real issue here is that people are uncomfortable with the notion that a biological male acts like a woman and gets called a woman.  It seems to offend their senses.

Sexuality is a continuum.  Why is it that if someone so strongly identifies as a certain sexuality and gender that they aren't allowed to be addressed as such?

Are you really bringing up the pain of someone who feels trans?  Much of the pain is not just that they feel different inside, but instead stems from society treating them like shit.

The reason you can be called a woman all day long and it doesn't effect you is, I assume, you have a biological gender, you identify with that gender, aren't really going to be ridiculed, bullied, discriminated against, etc.  You aren't staying up late at night self-hating your sexuality and gender.

The woman who has transitioned to a man, is often having to live with the sentiment you are expressing.  You view them as still a woman, so how can they not help to still be a man trapped in a woman body.  It can absolutely be taken away with words.  They still have to live with the self hate.  No wonder they too often still commit suicide.  Just like those that have been denied from the start.  I absolutely dispute that the most healthy outcome is to hammer away any notion that doesn't conform to the outdated notion of gender and sexuality.

6) Please clarify.  Did you just agree that a woman who transitions to a man is indeed now a man and should be addressed and treated as such?

7) See 4.  Abuse is one of the core issues here.  If society didn't treat them like it does, like shit, I believe the suicides would essentially go down to the norm.  Which is also not good in and of itself.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of his first breath to the moment of his last.



sundin13 said:
Your OP kind of frames the debate by using some loaded language that isn't really present in the examples. You claim that these parents are pushing their children, however in both examples you provided, it appears that the children are the ones who are being allowed to lead and express their own identities in the way they see fit. In my opinion, the only way to see such a thing as child abuse is if your own biases lead you to believe that Transgender identity is wrong in some way.

They shouldn't be allowed. It's to big a decision. It's why children don't vote... Or drive... Or in most cases, something as simple decide what the family eats with them for dinner. Because they make poor decisions. They don't have the life experience or intelligence to draw from yet.

Something so life altering should wait until adulthood when they can make informed decisions. Making decisions on feelings alone is foolish.



dharh said:

1) People who deny that there are athletic advantages to a male who transitioned to a female, especially after puberty has finished, are in denial of the science.  I don't take much stock in such people.  Denial of the science, science that is well peer reviewed and has gone through the full science rigors, is pretty disqualifying.

Which in general is why more sports need to qualifying and weight/muscle classed.

2) For one thing science is a continuous process.  We understand what we understand with the tools we currently have to understand things.  When we get better tools and better understanding we know better how much we didn't understand in the past.  Plenty of people get degrees in whatever then go off the crazy cliff and make a career about it.  Case in point Dr. Phil.  Gullible people will be gullible no matter what ya do.  People who pay attention, get second opinions, actually read up on stuff are not going to fall for the bullshit these people spout.

One should be wary of all things always.  I don't necessarily believe in the guy spouting the inferiority of whomever just because of anecdotal evidence or 'feelings'.  What scientific evidence can you point to that people are claiming says there are zero differences between the sexes?  I'll only state that some jobs that have been traditionally male only are not inherently jobs only a man is suited to do.  Where the line is, I don't claim to know.  I'll let time ultimately dictate that.

4) You say you don't ignore the issue of gender dysphoria, but isn't that exactly what you are doing?  You are basically saying biology trumps whatever is in the mind no matter what.  We are not at all purely the sum of our biology.  Someone could be biologically a certain gender but never fit in with the societal norms of that gender.  It seems to me the real issue here is that people are uncomfortable with the notion that a biological male acts like a woman and gets called a woman.  It seems to offend their senses.

Sexuality is a continuum.  Why is it that if someone so strongly identifies as a certain sexuality and gender that they aren't allowed to be addressed as such?

Are you really bringing up the pain of someone who feels trans?  Much of the pain is not just that they feel different inside, but instead stems from society treating them like shit.

The reason you can be called a woman all day long and it doesn't effect you is, I assume, you have a biological gender, you identify with that gender, aren't really going to be ridiculed, bullied, discriminated against, etc.  You aren't staying up late at night self-hating your sexuality and gender.

The woman who has transitioned to a man, is often having to live with the sentiment you are expressing.  You view them as still a woman, so how can they not help to still be a man trapped in a woman body.  It can absolutely be taken away with words.  They still have to live with the self hate.  No wonder they too often still commit suicide.  Just like those that have been denied from the start.  I absolutely dispute that the most healthy outcome is to hammer away any notion that doesn't conform to the outdated notion of gender and sexuality.

6) Please clarify.  Did you just agree that a woman who transitions to a man is indeed now a man and should be addressed and treated as such?

7) See 4.  Abuse is one of the core issues here.  If society didn't treat them like it does, like shit, I believe the suicides would essentially go down to the norm.  Which is also not good in and of itself.

1.  These are scientists that we're talking about.  And anyone who says otherwise gets shouted down.

2.  Yes, I'm aware science is a process.  But science shouldn't be treated as pure, the social sciences least of all.  The goal at the moment isn't to find the truth, it's to confirm the theory.  Kick the can down the road a few years when the panic subsides and today's science that we trust is going to seem wacky like it usually does for hot-button issues.

4.  No, I'm not at all.  If you'd listen to what I'm saying, it's not that these people should suck it up and live by the same gender norms that they're born with.  It's that they should live freely and accept the facts of their birth as such.  I don't see the two as mutually exclusive

As for society treating them like shit, that's its own problem.  However, I would also contend that it would help if they stopped trying to force people to believe something untrue.  As long as saying something accurate puts someone on the path to suicide, then we've hit a basic problem that not everyone is going to go along with the program.  Trying to tell people merely speaking the truth that they're killing people is not helpful.

6.  No.  I'm saying the solution of simply calling a transitioned man a man is simplistic.  What I'm advocating is more difficult.  Holding two thoughts in one's head at the same time and finding peace with both.  That gender dysphoria is real, that it's okay to live the life as a man or woman because that's how they're mental makeup works, but understand that it's also okay that sex is immutable and come to terms with that as well.

7.  There is a lot of room between abuse and the blind acceptance of radical dogma on the subject.



ironmanDX said:
sundin13 said:
Your OP kind of frames the debate by using some loaded language that isn't really present in the examples. You claim that these parents are pushing their children, however in both examples you provided, it appears that the children are the ones who are being allowed to lead and express their own identities in the way they see fit. In my opinion, the only way to see such a thing as child abuse is if your own biases lead you to believe that Transgender identity is wrong in some way.

They shouldn't be allowed. It's to big a decision. It's why children don't vote... Or drive... Or in most cases, something as simple decide what the family eats with them for dinner. Because they make poor decisions. They don't have the life experience or intelligence to draw from yet.

Something so life altering should wait until adulthood when they can make informed decisions. Making decisions on feelings alone is foolish.

Again, we are not talking about physical transitions. We are talking about choices such as allowing children who were born male wear dresses or grow their hair out. These are not irreversible life altering decisions, however they can have a strong positive impact should a child's transgender identity be affirmed as they age.



ironmanDX said:
sundin13 said:
Your OP kind of frames the debate by using some loaded language that isn't really present in the examples. You claim that these parents are pushing their children, however in both examples you provided, it appears that the children are the ones who are being allowed to lead and express their own identities in the way they see fit. In my opinion, the only way to see such a thing as child abuse is if your own biases lead you to believe that Transgender identity is wrong in some way.

They shouldn't be allowed. It's to big a decision. It's why children don't vote... Or drive... Or in most cases, something as simple decide what the family eats with them for dinner. Because they make poor decisions. They don't have the life experience or intelligence to draw from yet.

Something so life altering should wait until adulthood when they can make informed decisions. Making decisions on feelings alone is foolish.

Charlize Theron is being dumb obviously.  I don't think it equates to you have to be a fully developed adult to transition. 

First of all after finishing puberty your bone structure is very much developed to the gender, or more to the point females further refine to female and males shift to male away from their more feminine body origins (this is not about male/female mentality, just body/bone structure).

Second min age to drive in the states is 16 year old.  In Alaska a 14 can get their entry license.  It's not to far a stretch to say that teens after years of evaluation and second opinions from professionals (not TV/Radio hack Dr.s) can make a decisions.  Below is good window into the process:

"When an individual is transitioning from female to male (FTM) or male to female (MTF), there are several avenues[24] that are available to them pendant upon their financial capabilities, insurance's agreement to cover costs, and personal desire to utilize these options. While these options do exist, many of them are labeled off limits to minors (individuals under the age of 18). One of the options that does exist for minors is the use of puberty blockers, which in 2013 were officially stated as not damaging to bone health at the Endocrine Society's 95 Annual Meeting in San Francisco.[25] In puberty, the mass of bones is built significantly, so this finding holds great importance in allowing transgender youth to keep from undergoing the psychological damage that may accompany their bodies going through a puberty that is not consistent with their gender identity. Puberty blockers are believed to put the succession of puberty on pause and can reverse any changes that had been made. Typically puberty blockers, which are reversible are first administered between the ages of 12–14 years of age, this is the age block because 16 years of age is believed to be too late.[25] For youth in Dutch nations, transgender youth are allowed to begin cross sex hormones at age 16, following their course of puberty blockers, allowing for successful transitions.[25] Medical interventions in the form of hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery (SRS) are justified in the case of harm reduction for prepubescent children with severe gender dysphoria, since both can prevent severe psychological suffering.[26]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_youth#Existing_healthcare_options

Reducing this down to 'feelings' alone is imo way too reductionist.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of his first breath to the moment of his last.