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At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 10 15.15%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 39 59.09%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 17 25.76%
 
Total:66
Torillian said:
Immersiveunreality said:

If it results in suffering of said child it IS abuse.

If i take a swing at you while thinking it heals you ,would you consider that imperfect treatment or abuse?

Under your definition making my kid eat his vegetables is child abuse. He's certainly suffering. Taking away my kid's tablet or turning of the TV is also abuse. 

I've posted research indicating that kids who are supported in their gender identity have no difference in mental health outcomes compared to the average population so where is the evidence that supporting a child in their identified gender is causing enough suffering to be child abuse? Pushing one or another gender on a child, sure, but that can go either way. If you don't support a child in their identified gender and instead tell them "no you're a boy" when they say they are a girl you are being pushy just as much as someone who pushed their child to be transgender. I am arguing that supporting a child in their decision is good, regardless of age. Help them figure out who they are. Calling such parenting child abuse is honestly disgusting. 

The comparisons you make are a bit ridiculous .

How can you even start comparing making children eat vegetables to deforming their image about their gender that when wrongly used can result into lifetime depression,did you ever meet someone in depression because of eating vegetables as a child? Because yes we all had to endure it and im sure depression over it is almost nonexistent.

If we discuss suffering in this thread we are clearly not discussing it on the same level as children learning eating food or having to clean their room and it makes me wonder if you even have the slightest bit of understanding about mental health when you bring that up to make a point.

Bolded: The people in this thread would like to have you notice that not all children are willingly having any saying into that situation and that not all children are capable to make a decision about such a mental deforming important matter yet till they are older and to counter you i do find it disgusting to ignore this reasoning because by doing that you erase the individual child to serve the ideology.



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Immersiveunreality said:
Torillian said:

Under your definition making my kid eat his vegetables is child abuse. He's certainly suffering. Taking away my kid's tablet or turning of the TV is also abuse. 

I've posted research indicating that kids who are supported in their gender identity have no difference in mental health outcomes compared to the average population so where is the evidence that supporting a child in their identified gender is causing enough suffering to be child abuse? Pushing one or another gender on a child, sure, but that can go either way. If you don't support a child in their identified gender and instead tell them "no you're a boy" when they say they are a girl you are being pushy just as much as someone who pushed their child to be transgender. I am arguing that supporting a child in their decision is good, regardless of age. Help them figure out who they are. Calling such parenting child abuse is honestly disgusting. 

The comparisons you make are a bit ridiculous .

How can you even start comparing making children eat vegetables to deforming their image about their gender that when wrongly used can result into lifetime depression,did you ever meet someone in depression because of eating vegetables as a child? Because yes we all had to endure it and im sure depression over it is almost nonexistent.

If we discuss suffering in this thread we are clearly not discussing it on the same level as children learning eating food or having to clean their room and it makes me wonder if you even have the slightest bit of understanding about mental health when you bring that up to make a point.

Bolded: The people in this thread would like to have you notice that not all children are willingly having any saying into that situation and that not all children are capable to make a decision about such a mental deforming important matter yet till they are older and to counter you i do find it disgusting to ignore this reasoning because by doing that you erase the individual child to serve the ideology.

Again, stop just asserting that supporting a child in their gender identity is bad for them and show me the evidence. I've got research showing that trans youth who were supported in their transition have no different suicide rate than the general population. So, if you want to make the claim that supporting a child in that manner is causing them suffering then show me something other than your assertion. 

How in the ever living fuck is supporting a child in whatever they decide about their gender (even if they change it more than once) erasing the individual child? Seriously, draw that link for me. Because I have never said that forcing a child in either direction is the way to go so obviously that first part doesn't apply, and I've seen no research that supporting a child who thinks their trans who later decides otherwise is detrimental. 



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NightlyPoe said:
dharh said:

Yikes.  All sorts of yikes.  People are committing suicide over their sexuality and you reduce it to humoring them.  WTF.

I believe you're the one reducing it to simplicity.  I wrote a long post explaining the wrongheadedness of the groupthink and how it's not a healthy method either.  My goal is to reduce the number of suicides.  In order to do that, I suggest that the best method is to help people deal with and accept the reality of their situation.

I didn't reply piece by piece on your post, because I felt it would probably be a waste on both our parts.  But here, we, go.

NightlyPoe said:
Torillian said:

The psychiatric community appears to think so. I tend to defer to the experts where possible. I haven't spent years studying child psychology so I assume they know more about it than I do. Hopefully if a psychiatrist had a question on bioinorganic chemistry they would afford me the same respect.

The problem is that the psychiatric community is being highly politicized on this subject.  It seems that anything mildly contradictory of the "right" answer on the subject the science is silenced.[1]  We went through the same thing a few decades back when gender roles were marked as completely behavioral because that's where the political winds were blowing back then.  And we found plenty of examples of tragedy emanating from that bit of group think.[2]

I would mark this as a blight on psychology and science in general.  I do not trust them on the subject and find their opinions of little use.[3]

To answer the original poster, yes I believe this is child abuse.  A three-year-old is not capable of making such a life-altering decision and the gender confusion created by parents and psychologists and teachers pretending with an undeveloped mind that doesn't know the difference between real and imagined is just terrible.

My personal view on the trans subject in general is that the common view is misguided.  We should call everyone what they biologically are.  A man can live the socially constructed norms of a woman if he so chooses, but that man also needs to come to grips with what he is, NOT WHAT HE WANTS TO BE.[4]  There's an old psychology story that fits here.  A school was having trouble and decided that they should improve the students' self-esteem.  They praised the students no matter how poor their work.  The idea was that the kids would feel better about themselves and get better grades (self-esteem actually has little to do with success, but that's another matter).  Instead, all they did was increase the number of fights in the school.  See, the dumb students remained dumb, but they were being told otherwise.  It wasn't new that these students were having difficulty in school, but it was new that they were being praised.  There was a conflict where they wanted to keep pretending they were smart, but knew that it wasn't true.  When someone pierce the fantasy, they either went away feeling bad about themselves, or fought to keep their self-esteem up.  In the end, nothing good came of the program.[5]

Everyone pretending that a person is something that they're not doesn't help anyone.  Including the person who we are humoring.  Because there will always be plenty of people who will not accept the fantasy and will say the truth.  We know that trans people are particularly hurt by this.  Well, that's because, like in the example above, they know the truth.  No matter how much social pressure there is, there is no getting around the truth.[6]

E pur si muove (And yet it moves)

If it weren't the truth, then the person would be able to shrug it off.  You can call me a woman all day long, it wouldn't do much more than make me look at you funny.  I'll go home completely unconflicted.  The source of the pain is the loss of the breaking of the fantasy.  We need to help trans people deal with what they are.  Only then will they be able to live healthy lives.  Playing pretend for a lifetime just keeps people running into the same walls as reality keeps intruding.[7]

1) What science?  What actual scientific research has been done that contradicts the current psychological communities view on sexuality?  What is being silenced?  There are plenty of examples of science that is being silenced when it contradicts the common non scientific consensus of certain politics.  Fracking, climate change, mass extinction, etc.

2) This is an example of a poor kid who thanks to botched medical procedure was arbitrarily made to be a girl.  John Money's theories about gender are not the general consensus.  Those parents should have sought a second opinion.  If all that happened was a botched surgery that the child had to live with until they became older and then could make whatever decisions based on sound psychological evaluation I doubt his life would have turned out to be the tragedy it became.  Instead David Reimer had to endure what was clearly child abuse at the hand of John Money.  The dude might be a pedo.  In any event, obviously there is way more research and understanding needed for children born with malformed genitals.

3) Who do you trust then?

4) The common majority view (not the scientific or psychological view) is that LGBTQ is unnatural.  People are being constantly hammered to act within their assigned roles.  Again you are equating this subject to people _wanting_ to be a certain gender.  Completely ignoring Gender dysphoria.  All you end up going by calling 'everyone what they biologically are' is making people experiencing gender dysphoria feel worse.  Possibly leading to suicide as much as miss diagnosing someone as experiencing gender dysphoria.

5) There's tons to unpack with that program.  But yes the participation trophy, you're a winner even though you lost, mentality is often not at all helpful.  Clearly with this program there was an attempt to solve a problem by trying to fix the symptoms but not the underlying cause.  Where was this school?  Was it in a poor neighborhood?  Was the neighborhood in an area prone to violence and crime?  Sounds like the system itself was crap.  Also 'dumb students remained dumb'?  Geese.

6) SMH.  Again as I said before you reduce a very complex issue to humoring them.  Ignoring a person experiencing deep gender dysphoria and enforcing a view of gender specifics on them is what doesn't help them.  It is not a 'fantasy' to not be comfortable with their assigned role.  Trans people are particularly hurt because much of society ridicules them and tries to enforce their views on them.  What you call 'the truth' is really just your opinion.  You have a view of black and white gender specifics and seem to think it will lead to less suicides when I think the evidence says otherwise.

"Youth are generally predisposed to life-threatening behaviors due to a number of conditions, such as self-hatred, victimization via bullyingsubstance abuse, etc. Transgender youth may also face victimization from peers and family members’ negative reactions to their atypical gender presentation, increasing their risk of life-threatening behaviors. Of the transgender youth who were interviewed and reported an attempt at taking their own life in the aforementioned study, almost all had been verbally abused by their parents, and a significant number had been physically abused as well. In comparing those transgender youth who had and had not attempted suicide, there were significant differences in family relations, peer relations, and school performance." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_youth#cite_note-GrossmanII-17

I would assert the high levels of suicide among those who are trans, regardless of whether they have gone through actual hormonal transition or not, is due to their constant struggles to be accepted, the constant abuse their endure from society, from being refused housing to being targeted for hate crimes, and the all around disdain they receive from almost everywhere.

7) *deep, beleaguered sigh*  Of course you can shrug off being called a woman.  You think you have a clear understanding of your sexuality and gender.  Being trans is in no way at all like non-conflicted person being called some gender they are not.  These are not non-conflicted people to start with.  They feel outside the societal norms and are often ridiculed for it.  That is where _some_ of the pain comes from, not living in a 'fantasy' and being called out on it.

Trans do need help dealing with and being accepted for what they are.  Trans.  When society stops trying to hurt them and instead tries to help them understand themselves and make the choices they need to make, only then will they be able to live happy healthy lives.  Pretending to be something they are not just to conform to current unhealthy societal norms just keeps them hitting their heads against a wall, all to often leading to suicide.

Again, all this to say is that we need to continue psychological research and refinement of this process.  Gender and gender roles are not cut and dry, black and white.

Of course children at the age of 3 should not be being coerced either way.  Not to be one way or the other.  Just let them play and stop trying to enforce every single old age norm on them.  Trans children nearing the age of puberty should already have been receiving psychological evaluation and support to then be able to make the decision to make a hormonal transition.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of his first breath to the moment of his last.



Torillian said:
eva01beserk said:

Whats your stance on kids eating nothing but candy all day because thats what they want? Would you just let them? And yes, I know its not the same comparison. Just an example of when a kid does not know what its talking about.

But its simple. You dont have to encourage the thought of a toddler. You can explain a little to the kid and let him still claim it or deny it. Not take all their boy close and burn it and buy dresses. You might not believe it, but kids change their minds all the time, so you might not want to take what they say and carve it in stone. 

And about your resistance 99.5% is just absurd. This is just the people being observed. Transgender has exploded recently and parents are doubting their parenting even more. I would not be surprised if at any point in time in our youth we thought we were something else. Just our parents dint think any of it just child play. Now a 2 year old says something and they run to a psychologist. Like you said, trans are a tiny fraction of the population so its easier to study. But the general population is harder to study cuz untill something happens that splits them, then they are a control group.

Again, you have chosen an example where there are obvious detriments to supporting the child's decision. Show me the same for transgendered youth and you have a point. From what I've read supporting a child in their gender choices would be akin to supporting them in the colors they want to wear. It has no detrimental effects. Show me otherwise or stop with these crazy examples that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. 

And where the fuck did I say to take all their boy clothes and burn them and buy dresses? How is that supporting the child in their making a decision?

So you argue that there are more trans in the current generation than 0.5%? Can you show me anything that supports this because so far this (similar to your other claims) really seems like a "feels over reals" argument that I can't really argue against with facts and data. 

I dint mean that there are more trans now, I mean that its on everybody mind cuz its the hot topic. And I never claimed you said anything about clothes. It was an obvious hyperbole I made. 

Dint you just admit just a few post before that you agree with the at least 65% of kids regretting to be trans when they grow up? Then you also agreed to them being high on the suicide scale. Because of other people, thats debatable. But what if these kids grow up seriously confused cuz at 3 they made the wrong choice and you went with it? All the pain that people believe that trans go through would have happened at prepubescent age where no harm would occur. But if they regret the process at the teenage years after they form they behavior and manners and peoples expectation, its a lot harder to adjust. And you accepted that 65% of people regret the decision dint you? Would you take a life altering decision with a 2/3 fail rate from the word of a 3 year old who just learned how to talk? 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

eva01beserk said:
Torillian said:

Again, you have chosen an example where there are obvious detriments to supporting the child's decision. Show me the same for transgendered youth and you have a point. From what I've read supporting a child in their gender choices would be akin to supporting them in the colors they want to wear. It has no detrimental effects. Show me otherwise or stop with these crazy examples that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. 

And where the fuck did I say to take all their boy clothes and burn them and buy dresses? How is that supporting the child in their making a decision?

So you argue that there are more trans in the current generation than 0.5%? Can you show me anything that supports this because so far this (similar to your other claims) really seems like a "feels over reals" argument that I can't really argue against with facts and data. 

I dint mean that there are more trans now, I mean that its on everybody mind cuz its the hot topic. And I never claimed you said anything about clothes. It was an obvious hyperbole I made. 

Dint you just admit just a few post before that you agree with the at least 65% of kids regretting to be trans when they grow up? Then you also agreed to them being high on the suicide scale. Because of other people, thats debatable. But what if these kids grow up seriously confused cuz at 3 they made the wrong choice and you went with it? All the pain that people believe that trans go through would have happened at prepubescent age where no harm would occur. But if they regret the process at the teenage years after they form they behavior and manners and peoples expectation, its a lot harder to adjust. And you accepted that 65% of people regret the decision dint you? Would you take a life altering decision with a 2/3 fail rate from the word of a 3 year old who just learned how to talk? 

65% of kids go back to Cis, that isn't the same as regretting you were trans, that's just deciding you aren't. 

I agreed to them being high and then showed you data saying that if they are supported in their decisions (exactly what I've been advocating for this entire time) that they aren't any higher than their peers. 

What if the kid grows up seriously confused because they made the right choice and you decided to enforce what you wanted on them instead of listening to their feelings? 

And again, I ask what you propose as a solution then? Because my position is that you support the kid in whatever they decide and let them wear what they want and they can figure out things as they move on. You don't enforce either side, you support them in their own decisions. So in what way is that a life altering decision? You telling me that letting my 3 year old boy where a dress if he feels like it instead of enforcing the gender I think he is on him is worse? How so? 



...

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Identity is not the same as sexuality. Some people are asexual for example.

I don't think anyone should 'push' their children into lifelong decisions, but in the examples you provided I don't think anyone was mentioned pushing these children.

As for how a parent should handle such a situation with a younger child, I guess you let the child figure it out over time.



Torillian said:
eva01beserk said:

I dint mean that there are more trans now, I mean that its on everybody mind cuz its the hot topic. And I never claimed you said anything about clothes. It was an obvious hyperbole I made. 

Dint you just admit just a few post before that you agree with the at least 65% of kids regretting to be trans when they grow up? Then you also agreed to them being high on the suicide scale. Because of other people, thats debatable. But what if these kids grow up seriously confused cuz at 3 they made the wrong choice and you went with it? All the pain that people believe that trans go through would have happened at prepubescent age where no harm would occur. But if they regret the process at the teenage years after they form they behavior and manners and peoples expectation, its a lot harder to adjust. And you accepted that 65% of people regret the decision dint you? Would you take a life altering decision with a 2/3 fail rate from the word of a 3 year old who just learned how to talk? 

65% of kids go back to Cis, that isn't the same as regretting you were trans, that's just deciding you aren't. 

I agreed to them being high and then showed you data saying that if they are supported in their decisions (exactly what I've been advocating for this entire time) that they aren't any higher than their peers. 

What if the kid grows up seriously confused because they made the right choice and you decided to enforce what you wanted on them instead of listening to their feelings? 

And again, I ask what you propose as a solution then? Because my position is that you support the kid in whatever they decide and let them wear what they want and they can figure out things as they move on. You don't enforce either side, you support them in their own decisions. So in what way is that a life altering decision? You telling me that letting my 3 year old boy where a dress if he feels like it instead of enforcing the gender I think he is on him is worse? How so? 

So a kid says its trans at a super young age and they are born that way, being older and they want to go back is just a decision they made. Got it.

And somebody showed you research that transitioning does not fix the underline issue and trans are still just as unhappy and is the main reason for the high suicide rate. So its still much higher than the peers who have not had any issues.

Thats an easy one. adults make the wrong choice all the time. But if we have at least 65% chance of being correct, ill take the chance. But its higher than that, just going by what you are willing to cede. 

I just told you that it has a higher chance to be wrong. Its easier to just enforce what they are born as. A 2-3 year old wont cry cuz it wants to wear a dress. Once the kid is a bit older, maybe 8-10 then they have more sense of what they are talking about. and its still early enough to do any adjustments. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Hiku said:

Identity is not the same as sexuality. Some people are asexual for example.

I don't think anyone should 'push' their children into lifelong decisions, but in the examples you provided I don't think anyone was mentioned pushing these children.

As for how a parent should handle such a situation with a younger child, I guess you let the child figure it out over time.

well said.

Treat them like any other kid. Special cases or treatment makes kids feel more out of place.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

eva01beserk said:

And somebody showed you research that transitioning does not fix the underline issue and trans are still just as unhappy and is the main reason for the high suicide rate. So its still much higher than the peers who have not had any issues.

I don't believe such research was posted, however, there is research which looks into how transitioning affects transgendered individuals.

Lets take a look:

Hormonal therapy and sex reassignment: a systematic review and meta‐analysis of quality of life and psychosocial outcomes

"Pooling across studies shows that after sex reassignment, 80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in gender dysphoria [and] 80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in quality of life [and] 78% reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms"

"When measured by the Utrecht Gender Dysphoria Scale (UGDS/UGS), FM and MF individuals had minimal gender dysphoria remaining after transition, which was comparable to gender concordant controls without GID and better than dysphoria in untreated individuals with GID. They reported good satisfaction with the new assigned sex, physical appearance, had no doubts about their new gender role or their ability about maintaining this role in the future. Satisfaction with primary and secondary sex characteristics was significantly higher when pre- and posttransition therapy data were compared."

"In most of the included studies, at least two thirds of individuals with GID reported improvement in some aspects of their quality of life such as more stable relationships, better adjustment, satisfaction with sex reassignment, and overall happiness and contentness. In a study by Rehman et al., 27/28 MF individuals reported life becoming easier and more comfortable posttransition."

Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment

"After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population. Improvements in psychological functioning were positively correlated with postsurgical subjective well-being."

"Psychological functioning improved steadily over time, resulting in rates of clinical problems that are indistinguishable from general population samples (eg, percent in the clinical range dropped from 30% to 7% on the YSR/ASR) and quality of life, satisfaction with life, and subjective happiness comparable to same-age peers."

Is hormonal therapy associated with better quality of life in transsexuals? A cross-sectional study.

"Hormonal therapy was significantly associated with higher scores on the social, emotional, and mental QoL dimensions (SF, RE, MH, and MCS).

Hormonal transsexuals presented significantly higher scores on the MH (79.4 16.1 vs. 73.4 2.6, P = 0.02) and GH (79.4 16.1 vs. 69.5 2.3, P = 0.001) dimensions, whereas nonhormonal transsexuals reported lower scores than controls on the RE dimension (54.9 40.7 vs. 86.2 4.1, P = 0.01). …

Another important finding is the disparity between the nonhormonal and the hormonal transsexuals, as hormonal therapy is associated with higher scores of general and MH, whereas the absence of hormones is associated with lower scores of the RE subscale. These results underline the suffering of nonhormonal transsexuals and the probable favorable evolution of their QoL with hormonal therapy in a sex reassignment procedure. Our results suggest the positive psychological effects of hormonal therapy rarely identified in previous reports [2,4]. It seems to suggest that treatment with hormones allows individuals to feel as good or better than controls."

Long-term follow-up: psychosocial outcome of Belgian transsexuals after sex reassignment surgery

In transgendered individuals who underwent sex reassignment surgery "the suicide attempt-rate dropped significantly from 29.3% to 5.1%"

Overall, while general QOL of transgendered individuals tends to be lower than non-transgendered individuals, transitioning to preferred gender does improve QOL for most individuals. Further, transitioning during adolescence is associated with better outcomes than transitioning as an adult. However, all of this needs to be evaluated within the context of societal mistreatment of transgendered individuals. While transitioning does tend to reduce gender dysphoria (the thing that it tends to be considered a treatment for) and improve many measures of QOL, transitioning also comes with societal pressures. We know from a great body of research on suicide that "peer, school, community, and family based rejection, discrimination, and victimization are associated with greater risk for suicidal behaviors".

As such, we should acknowledge that transitioning is an effective method of treating gender dysphoria, however we should also acknowledge that we need to do better as a society at how we treat these individuals if we are truly concerned about their health. Telling these individuals that they cannot or should not undergo treatment (or telling them that their identity is not valid) because of the suicide rate is simply telling them to continue to suffer because we as a society just can't help ourselves from mistreating a trans person. Personally, I do not find that to be a compelling argument against the medical viability of transitioning and I find it to be a major condemnation of the concern trolls who say that we shouldn't allow transgendered people to be treated because of the suicide rates.

Note: Not all of this post is meant as a direct response to you.



dharh said:

1) What science?  What actual scientific research has been done that contradicts the current psychological communities view on sexuality?  What is being silenced?  There are plenty of examples of science that is being silenced when it contradicts the common non scientific consensus of certain politics.  Fracking, climate change, mass extinction, etc.

2) This is an example of a poor kid who thanks to botched medical procedure was arbitrarily made to be a girl.  John Money's theories about gender are not the general consensus.  Those parents should have sought a second opinion.  If all that happened was a botched surgery that the child had to live with until they became older and then could make whatever decisions based on sound psychological evaluation I doubt his life would have turned out to be the tragedy it became.  Instead David Reimer had to endure what was clearly child abuse at the hand of John Money.  The dude might be a pedo.  In any event, obviously there is way more research and understanding needed for children born with malformed genitals.

3) Who do you trust then?

4) The common majority view (not the scientific or psychological view) is that LGBTQ is unnatural.  People are being constantly hammered to act within their assigned roles.  Again you are equating this subject to people _wanting_ to be a certain gender.  Completely ignoring Gender dysphoria.  All you end up going by calling 'everyone what they biologically are' is making people experiencing gender dysphoria feel worse.  Possibly leading to suicide as much as miss diagnosing someone as experiencing gender dysphoria.

5) There's tons to unpack with that program.  But yes the participation trophy, you're a winner even though you lost, mentality is often not at all helpful.  Clearly with this program there was an attempt to solve a problem by trying to fix the symptoms but not the underlying cause.  Where was this school?  Was it in a poor neighborhood?  Was the neighborhood in an area prone to violence and crime?  Sounds like the system itself was crap.  Also 'dumb students remained dumb'?  Geese.

6) SMH.  Again as I said before you reduce a very complex issue to humoring them.  Ignoring a person experiencing deep gender dysphoria and enforcing a view of gender specifics on them is what doesn't help them.  It is not a 'fantasy' to not be comfortable with their assigned role.  Trans people are particularly hurt because much of society ridicules them and tries to enforce their views on them.  What you call 'the truth' is really just your opinion.  You have a view of black and white gender specifics and seem to think it will lead to less suicides when I think the evidence says otherwise.

"Youth are generally predisposed to life-threatening behaviors due to a number of conditions, such as self-hatred, victimization via bullying, substance abuse, etc. Transgender youth may also face victimization from peers and family members’ negative reactions to their atypical gender presentation, increasing their risk of life-threatening behaviors. Of the transgender youth who were interviewed and reported an attempt at taking their own life in the aforementioned study, almost all had been verbally abused by their parents, and a significant number had been physically abused as well. In comparing those transgender youth who had and had not attempted suicide, there were significant differences in family relations, peer relations, and school performance." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_youth#cite_note-GrossmanII-17

I would assert the high levels of suicide among those who are trans, regardless of whether they have gone through actual hormonal transition or not, is due to their constant struggles to be accepted, the constant abuse their endure from society, from being refused housing to being targeted for hate crimes, and the all around disdain they receive from almost everywhere.

7) *deep, beleaguered sigh*  Of course you can shrug off being called a woman.  You think you have a clear understanding of your sexuality and gender.  Being trans is in no way at all like non-conflicted person being called some gender they are not.  These are not non-conflicted people to start with.  They feel outside the societal norms and are often ridiculed for it.  That is where _some_ of the pain comes from, not living in a 'fantasy' and being called out on it.

Trans do need help dealing with and being accepted for what they are.  Trans.  When society stops trying to hurt them and instead tries to help them understand themselves and make the choices they need to make, only then will they be able to live happy healthy lives.  Pretending to be something they are not just to conform to current unhealthy societal norms just keeps them hitting their heads against a wall, all to often leading to suicide.

Again, all this to say is that we need to continue psychological research and refinement of this process.  Gender and gender roles are not cut and dry, black and white.

Of course children at the age of 3 should not be being coerced either way.  Not to be one way or the other.  Just let them play and stop trying to enforce every single old age norm on them.  Trans children nearing the age of puberty should already have been receiving psychological evaluation and support to then be able to make the decision to make a hormonal transition.

1.  Well, the big one these last few weeks has been the insistence that there is no athletic advantage for a biologic male competing against girls.  Which is, frankly, stupid.  I'll bring up the Congressional testimony if you wish.  But it should tell you just how deep the denial is that this is even a point of debate.

2.  His theories aren't listened to NOW.  But all the way up until the 90s, he was highly influential.  The reason being that at the time differences between the sexes was used as a way to state that women were inferior and ill-suited to certain jobs and tasks.  Now we've careened into the opposite direction because that's where the "good guys" are.  One should always be wary of science when it changes based on the narrative, wouldn't you say?

3.  Frankly, it's all so politicized that I don't think either side has their heads on straight and both are in the wrong and are harming people.

4.  I do not ignore the issue of gender dysphoria, I treat it as it is, not how someone would want it to be.  And how they would want it to be is to make someone sex fluid to what's in the mind and not what it is, purely biological.  Assigned by anatomy and DNA (yes, I know that the two are sometimes wonky, but that's really a separate issue).

You bring up suicide rates and the pain.  I'm bringing it up as well.  What I'm saying is that work should be done to accept what they are.  That is the most healthy outcome in the end because it's durable.  If you have a woman transitioning to a man, who understands that she will always be a woman but feel more comfortable living life as a man, then that cannot be taken away with words.  I ask again, why is it that I can be called a woman all day long and it wouldn't effect my ego at all.  The reason is because it's not true and there's no one that can make me doubt it.

5.  Been awhile since I studied psychology.  Afraid I lost my research on that specific study years ago.

And, yes, some people have low intelligence.  Half the population is below average if you can believe it.

6.  No, I'm making the issue more complex, but bringing it in line with the reality of the situation.  A simple answer is the one we hear all the time, that a woman transitioning to a man is a man.

And you bring up abuse, which I'm against, so I'm going to ignore.  Abuse from one direction does not mean that the other direction is completely in the right.

7.  You didn't answer the question.  You went back to abuse again.