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At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 9 15.79%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 34 59.65%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 14 24.56%
 
Total:57
eva01beserk said:
Torillian said:

Appears that the most recent and legitimate study claims 65% but includes anyone that they had no information on as someone that desisted which is arguable so that number is likely decreased. So what is your prescription for parents whose children say they are transgender given that half will desist? You think it's illegitimate to support these children in their conclusion because half of them will reverse the decision in their teen years?

I mean the article I linked previously concluded that trans children who were supported in their decision showed no increased mental health issues compared to their peers so what exactly is the downside to supporting a child who thinks they are transgender?

I will also state that the idea that half of these kids were wrong still shows that most of them had a pretty good idea of what gender is and what their gender is in particular. Only 0.5-0.6% of people identify as transgender so the idea that these kids were only wrong half the time seems to indicate they have a pretty good idea of their gender even at that age. Otherwise there would be 99.5% desistance to match the numbers seen in the general population. 

Whats your stance on kids eating nothing but candy all day because thats what they want? Would you just let them? And yes, I know its not the same comparison. Just an example of when a kid does not know what its talking about.

But its simple. You dont have to encourage the thought of a toddler. You can explain a little to the kid and let him still claim it or deny it. Not take all their boy close and burn it and buy dresses. You might not believe it, but kids change their minds all the time, so you might not want to take what they say and carve it in stone. 

And about your resistance 99.5% is just absurd. This is just the people being observed. Transgender has exploded recently and parents are doubting their parenting even more. I would not be surprised if at any point in time in our youth we thought we were something else. Just our parents dint think any of it just child play. Now a 2 year old says something and they run to a psychologist. Like you said, trans are a tiny fraction of the population so its easier to study. But the general population is harder to study cuz untill something happens that splits them, then they are a control group.

Again, you have chosen an example where there are obvious detriments to supporting the child's decision. Show me the same for transgendered youth and you have a point. From what I've read supporting a child in their gender choices would be akin to supporting them in the colors they want to wear. It has no detrimental effects. Show me otherwise or stop with these crazy examples that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. 

And where the fuck did I say to take all their boy clothes and burn them and buy dresses? How is that supporting the child in their making a decision?

So you argue that there are more trans in the current generation than 0.5%? Can you show me anything that supports this because so far this (similar to your other claims) really seems like a "feels over reals" argument that I can't really argue against with facts and data. 



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Torillian said:
John2290 said:

Would you support a child in their decision to bungle jump (if it were legal) would that be what they want to do. Would you support their decision to drink alcohol, smoke weed and do other drugs would that be what they want? Perhpas join the army, a lot of kids want to do that early on, go to war and shoot guns. Should the parent support them in this or is it bad shit insane until they cone of age...

Show me the research that indicates that supporting a child in being trans is as dangerous as the things you decided to relate to it for some reason and I'll concede. I showed you research indicating that there is no danger. Show me the opposite. Honestly getting a little tired of you ignoring the research and claiming (without any backing) that supporting a child in their view of being transgender is equivalent to supporting their decision to harm themselves with illicit substances or go to war. 

You believe this research to come out of people with no agenda, money goes into this. Parma companies back this research to sell hormone treatment. Follow the money, yes i won't believe the research until there is zero funding from pharma corps in this area and non profit researchers. If it defies common sense and logic at the most fundamental of levels (for example, fracking research indicates no environmental impact at a local level) then it matters not about research because the evidence of wrong doing is clear as day yo see with your own eyes. There is also the matter of time, it has been such a short period of time that this has hit a large enough geoup size, even the research agree they cannot know the full effects long term. 

Look up the horror stories of trans adults regretting their decisions and the suicide rate. There once was a pregnancy drug called, Thalidomide, people put faith in the research of that drug yet it resulted in the destruction and sifferig of many, many lives.



 

Everything in the above reply is my opinion, from my own perspective and not representative of reality outside of my own head!

-Android user, please be gentle with critique on my spelling.

sundin13 said:
John2290 said:

Would you support a child in their decision to bungle jump (if it were legal) would that be what they want to do. Would you support their decision to drink alcohol, smoke weed and do other drugs would that be what they want? Perhpas join the army, a lot of kids want to do that early on, go to war and shoot guns. Should the parent support them in this or is it bad shit insane until they cone of age...

Comparing a child wearing a dress despite being born male to a child drinking alcohol or potentially dying, shows to me fairly clearly that you think that non-physical transitioning as is being discussed here is damaging. This is a position that you have still have yet to support (while those disagreeing with you have supported their positions). Making these comparisons is utilizing a false dichotomy to support a line of thinking that you still have not supported without devolving into fallacies.

Look at the suicide rate and I will ask you again. Please ask me in the form of a question if you believe me to think something, instead of framing the words for me, words I did not say. I will not reply to strawmanning.



 

Everything in the above reply is my opinion, from my own perspective and not representative of reality outside of my own head!

-Android user, please be gentle with critique on my spelling.

John2290 said:
Torillian said:

Show me the research that indicates that supporting a child in being trans is as dangerous as the things you decided to relate to it for some reason and I'll concede. I showed you research indicating that there is no danger. Show me the opposite. Honestly getting a little tired of you ignoring the research and claiming (without any backing) that supporting a child in their view of being transgender is equivalent to supporting their decision to harm themselves with illicit substances or go to war. 

You believe this research to come out of people with no agenda, money goes into this. Parma companies back this research to sell hormone treatment. Follow the money, yes i won't believe the research until there is zero funding from pharma corps in this area and non profit researchers. If it defies common sense and logic at the most fundamental of levels (for example, fracking research indicates no environmental impact at a local level) then it matters not about research because the evidence of wrong doing is clear as day yo see with your own eyes. There is also the matter of time, it has been such a short period of time that this has hit a large enough geoup size, even the research agree they cannot know the full effects long term. 

Look up the horror stories of trans adults regretting their decisions and the suicide rate.

If you don't want to engage with the research then you can bugger off with the anti-vaxxers and flat earthers. I have no use for a discussion on how you feel about a subject that has actual research being done on it. 

You know how we know research that concludes fracking research has no environmental impact is wrong? Other research. You can't just say "I don't agree because that's not how I feel". 

And again, I showed you research indicating that the suicide rate in those supported in their decision is the same as their peers. So clearly, if you give a shit about the suicide rate of these kids denying how they feel is exactly the wrong way to go about this. 



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NightlyPoe said:
Torillian said:

The psychiatric community appears to think so. I tend to defer to the experts where possible. I haven't spent years studying child psychology so I assume they know more about it than I do. Hopefully if a psychiatrist had a question on bioinorganic chemistry they would afford me the same respect.

The problem is that the psychiatric community is being highly politicized on this subject.  It seems that anything mildly contradictory of the "right" answer on the subject the science is silenced.  We went through the same thing a few decades back when gender roles were marked as completely behavioral because that's where the political winds were blowing back then.  And we found plenty of examples of tragedy emanating from that bit of group think.

I would mark this as a blight on psychology and science in general.  I do not trust them on the subject and find their opinions of little use.

To answer the original poster, yes I believe this is child abuse.  A three-year-old is not capable of making such a life-altering decision and the gender confusion created by parents and psychologists and teachers pretending with an undeveloped mind that doesn't know the difference between real and imagined is just terrible.

My personal view on the trans subject in general is that the common view is misguided.  We should call everyone what they biologically are.  A man can live the socially constructed norms of a woman if he so chooses, but that man also needs to come to grips with what he is, NOT WHAT HE WANTS TO BE.  There's an old psychology story that fits here.  A school was having trouble and decided that they should improve the students' self-esteem.  They praised the students no matter how poor their work.  The idea was that the kids would feel better about themselves and get better grades (self-esteem actually has little to do with success, but that's another matter).  Instead, all they did was increase the number of fights in the school.  See, the dumb students remained dumb, but they were being told otherwise.  It wasn't new that these students were having difficulty in school, but it was new that they were being praised.  There was a conflict where they wanted to keep pretending they were smart, but knew that it wasn't true.  When someone pierce the fantasy, they either went away feeling bad about themselves, or fought to keep their self-esteem up.  In the end, nothing good came of the program.

Everyone pretending that a person is something that they're not doesn't help anyone.  Including the person who we are humoring.  Because there will always be plenty of people who will not accept the fantasy and will say the truth.  We know that trans people are particularly hurt by this.  Well, that's because, like in the example above, they know the truth.  No matter how much social pressure there is, there is no getting around the truth.

E pur si muove (And yet it moves)

If it weren't the truth, then the person would be able to shrug it off.  You can call me a woman all day long, it wouldn't do much more than make me look at you funny.  I'll go home completely unconflicted.  The source of the pain is the loss of the breaking of the fantasy.  We need to help trans people deal with what they are.  Only then will they be able to live healthy lives.  Playing pretend for a lifetime just keeps people running into the same walls as reality keeps intruding.

Yikes.  All sorts of yikes.  People are committing suicide over their sexuality and you reduce it to humoring them.  WTF.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of his first breath to the moment of his last.



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Why does it matter? If someone wants to change their gender its none of our business.



John2290 said:
Torillian said:

Show me the research that indicates that supporting a child in being trans is as dangerous as the things you decided to relate to it for some reason and I'll concede. I showed you research indicating that there is no danger. Show me the opposite. Honestly getting a little tired of you ignoring the research and claiming (without any backing) that supporting a child in their view of being transgender is equivalent to supporting their decision to harm themselves with illicit substances or go to war. 

You believe this research to come out of people with no agenda, money goes into this. Parma companies back this research to sell hormone treatment. Follow the money, yes i won't believe the research until there is zero funding from pharma corps in this area and non profit researchers. If it defies common sense and logic at the most fundamental of levels (for example, fracking research indicates no environmental impact at a local level) then it matters not about research because the evidence of wrong doing is clear as day yo see with your own eyes. There is also the matter of time, it has been such a short period of time that this has hit a large enough geoup size, even the research agree they cannot know the full effects long term. 

Look up the horror stories of trans adults regretting their decisions and the suicide rate. There once was a pregnancy drug called, Thalidomide, people put faith in the research of that drug yet it resulted in the destruction and sifferig of many, many lives.

You believe the claim that everyone doing this research always has a bad agenda and only does it for money.  Pharma is a problem well beyond hormone treatment.  It does not negate the benefits, when done right and the right time. 

You clearly have your own hard line stance.  It does not defy common sense and logic for children (older than 3 obviously) to start to get evaluated and eventually begin to transition (just before puberty) to the hormonal gender they feel they really are.

Yes clearly their have been mistakes and clearly we need to do better in our research and acceptance of research with more peer review, more independent research, and counter research.  Which is why we are often doing just that.  Psychological evaluation now is way better than it was 20-30 years ago, certainly way better than 50 years ago.  Also consider the amount of people committing suicide over their sexuality that were not given the opportunity/were refused to be able to change.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of his first breath to the moment of his last.



Torillian said:
eva01beserk said:

Whats your stance on kids eating nothing but candy all day because thats what they want? Would you just let them? And yes, I know its not the same comparison. Just an example of when a kid does not know what its talking about.

But its simple. You dont have to encourage the thought of a toddler. You can explain a little to the kid and let him still claim it or deny it. Not take all their boy close and burn it and buy dresses. You might not believe it, but kids change their minds all the time, so you might not want to take what they say and carve it in stone. 

And about your resistance 99.5% is just absurd. This is just the people being observed. Transgender has exploded recently and parents are doubting their parenting even more. I would not be surprised if at any point in time in our youth we thought we were something else. Just our parents dint think any of it just child play. Now a 2 year old says something and they run to a psychologist. Like you said, trans are a tiny fraction of the population so its easier to study. But the general population is harder to study cuz untill something happens that splits them, then they are a control group.

Again, you have chosen an example where there are obvious detriments to supporting the child's decision. Show me the same for transgendered youth and you have a point. From what I've read supporting a child in their gender choices would be akin to supporting them in the colors they want to wear. It has no detrimental effects. Show me otherwise or stop with these crazy examples that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. 

And where the fuck did I say to take all their boy clothes and burn them and buy dresses? How is that supporting the child in their making a decision?

So you argue that there are more trans in the current generation than 0.5%? Can you show me anything that supports this because so far this (similar to your other claims) really seems like a "feels over reals" argument that I can't really argue against with facts and data. 

Oh look, I did the work for you and found research on the percentage of trans identifying individuals by age group and it's stayed consistent through the generations:

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/TransAgeReport.pdf

It's almost like basing your views of overall population trends on anecdotal evidence and the prevalence of transgender issues on tumblr isn't an accurate statistical method. 

Last edited by Torillian - on 20 April 2019

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John2290 said:
sundin13 said:

Comparing a child wearing a dress despite being born male to a child drinking alcohol or potentially dying, shows to me fairly clearly that you think that non-physical transitioning as is being discussed here is damaging. This is a position that you have still have yet to support (while those disagreeing with you have supported their positions). Making these comparisons is utilizing a false dichotomy to support a line of thinking that you still have not supported without devolving into fallacies.

Look at the suicide rate and I will ask you again. Please ask me intents form of a question instead of framing the words for me, words I did not say. I will not reply to strawmanning.

Bringing up the suicide rates of transgendered individuals is one of the purest forms of bad faith argumentation you can encounter in the wild.

Yes, transgendered individuals have a high suicide rate. Transgendered individuals are also widely abused, mistreated, attacked, insulted, misgendered and denied their identity. We should not use a high suicide rate of transgendered individuals as an excuse to deny the identity of transgendered individuals because that is a huge part of the reason there is a high suicide rate with these individuals in the first place. It is simply affirming the mistreatment of these individuals.

I'll also say this. If you do not intend to express the things that I am taking out of your posts, than I am glad. Feel free to insist that I am reading too deeply into some of this. However, I will say that much of what you've posted reads like concern trolling and dog whistles. It reads like a shallow disguise painted over bigotry, which says all it needs, in order to reinforce said bigotry while simultaneously shielding itself from criticism of that bigotry. As I read more from you, this feeling does not subside. As such, I will continue to respond to these posts in a manner which addresses the issues that I have with these lines of logic. You do not have to acknowledge them if you don't feel them to be relevant, but due to the possibility of these feeling being correct, I do not believe they should go unchallenged.



dharh said:

Yikes.  All sorts of yikes.  People are committing suicide over their sexuality and you reduce it to humoring them.  WTF.

I believe you're the one reducing it to simplicity.  I wrote a long post explaining the wrongheadedness of the groupthink and how it's not a healthy method either.  My goal is to reduce the number of suicides.  In order to do that, I suggest that the best method is to help people deal with and accept the reality of their situation.