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At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 8 14.29%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 34 60.71%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 14 25.00%
 
Total:56
melbye said:

Just remembered this one. There was the case of a mom who forced her son to live like a girl
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/6-year-old-boy-forced-to-live-as-a-girl-while-mom-threatens-dad-for-not-goi

Poor child.



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Immersiveunreality said:
Torillian said:

I don't think a thread that asks if supporting a child's view of themselves as transgender is child abuse is worried that our current treatment and understanding of these children is imperfect. Imperfect treatment is not child abuse. 

If it results in suffering of said child it IS abuse.

If i take a swing at you while thinking it heals you ,would you consider that imperfect treatment or abuse?

Under your definition making my kid eat his vegetables is child abuse. He's certainly suffering. Taking away my kid's tablet or turning of the TV is also abuse. 

I've posted research indicating that kids who are supported in their gender identity have no difference in mental health outcomes compared to the average population so where is the evidence that supporting a child in their identified gender is causing enough suffering to be child abuse? Pushing one or another gender on a child, sure, but that can go either way. If you don't support a child in their identified gender and instead tell them "no you're a boy" when they say they are a girl you are being pushy just as much as someone who pushed their child to be transgender. I am arguing that supporting a child in their decision is good, regardless of age. Help them figure out who they are. Calling such parenting child abuse is honestly disgusting. 



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Torillian said:
Immersiveunreality said:

If it results in suffering of said child it IS abuse.

If i take a swing at you while thinking it heals you ,would you consider that imperfect treatment or abuse?

Under your definition making my kid eat his vegetables is child abuse. He's certainly suffering. Taking away my kid's tablet or turning of the TV is also abuse. 

I've posted research indicating that kids who are supported in their gender identity have no difference in mental health outcomes compared to the average population so where is the evidence that supporting a child in their identified gender is causing enough suffering to be child abuse? Pushing one or another gender on a child, sure, but that can go either way. If you don't support a child in their identified gender and instead tell them "no you're a boy" when they say they are a girl you are being pushy just as much as someone who pushed their child to be transgender. I am arguing that supporting a child in their decision is good, regardless of age. Help them figure out who they are. Calling such parenting child abuse is honestly disgusting. 

Would you support a child in their decision to bungle jump (if it were legal) would that be what they want to do. Would you support their decision to drink alcohol, smoke weed and do other drugs would that be what they want? Perhpas join the army, a lot of kids want to do that early on, go to war and shoot guns. Should the parent support them in this or is it bad shit insane until they cone of age...



 

Everything in the above reply is my opinion, from my own perspective and not representative of reality outside of my own head!

-Android user, please be gentle with critique on my spelling.

Immersiveunreality said:
melbye said:

Just remembered this one. There was the case of a mom who forced her son to live like a girl
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/6-year-old-boy-forced-to-live-as-a-girl-while-mom-threatens-dad-for-not-goi

Poor child.

Question: if a parent ignores their child who claims they are transgender and forces them to dress as a boy when they would rather dress as a girl is this also child abuse?



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John2290 said:
Torillian said:
Where was anyone pushing a child to question their gender? What I read sounded like just affirming what the child said themselves rather than anyone pushing a child to do one thing or another.

Updated OP. Consider any circumstance, does a child have the ability to make that decision or to even consider it? 

Yes.  Besides which in order to go through any actual sexual change therapy they have many rounds of evaluation by professionals.  In no example so far is the parent the one making the child do anything. 

'Adults' like to consider 'children' of practically all ages as these beings that couldn't possibly be able to make sounds decisions on _anything_.  For the purpose of law and ambiguity we (per state) have laws on consent for sex at certain ages, voting, alcohol, voting, etc which is all fine and good but in all those things they are essentially best guesses in when we think the person is capable of making those decisions.  Not at all based on any science (if there would be any).

This is all to say that it is not cut and dry that a person has to be an 'adult' to be able to make the decision to change their sex.  In fact in many ways waiting till puberty hits or heck forbid after, can makes things worse.  People forget that puberty changes the body rigorously.  Sexual change transition, when possible should happen before/during puberty.  Again, this is why there is rigorous psychological evaluation before and during the transition in case the process needs to be halted.  The transition itself can take many years and _is_ reversible before a certain point.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of his first breath to the moment of his last.



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John2290 said:
Torillian said:

Under your definition making my kid eat his vegetables is child abuse. He's certainly suffering. Taking away my kid's tablet or turning of the TV is also abuse. 

I've posted research indicating that kids who are supported in their gender identity have no difference in mental health outcomes compared to the average population so where is the evidence that supporting a child in their identified gender is causing enough suffering to be child abuse? Pushing one or another gender on a child, sure, but that can go either way. If you don't support a child in their identified gender and instead tell them "no you're a boy" when they say they are a girl you are being pushy just as much as someone who pushed their child to be transgender. I am arguing that supporting a child in their decision is good, regardless of age. Help them figure out who they are. Calling such parenting child abuse is honestly disgusting. 

Would you support a child in their decision to bungle jump (if it were legal) would that be what they want to do. Would you support their decision to drink alcohol, smoke weed and do other drugs would that be what they want? Perhpas join the army, a lot of kids want to do that early on, go to war and shoot guns. Should the parent support them in this or is it bad shit insane until they cone of age...

Show me the research that indicates that supporting a child in being trans is as dangerous as the things you decided to relate to it for some reason and I'll concede. I showed you research indicating that there is no danger. Show me the opposite. Honestly getting a little tired of you ignoring the research and claiming (without any backing) that supporting a child in their view of being transgender is equivalent to supporting their decision to harm themselves with illicit substances or go to war. 



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Torillian said:
eva01beserk said:

https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-research-on-desistance-in-transgender-youth

about 65-94 percent of those confused kids just grow out of it. 

Appears that the most recent and legitimate study claims 65% but includes anyone that they had no information on as someone that desisted which is arguable so that number is likely decreased. So what is your prescription for parents whose children say they are transgender given that half will desist? You think it's illegitimate to support these children in their conclusion because half of them will reverse the decision in their teen years?

I mean the article I linked previously concluded that trans children who were supported in their decision showed no increased mental health issues compared to their peers so what exactly is the downside to supporting a child who thinks they are transgender?

I will also state that the idea that half of these kids were wrong still shows that most of them had a pretty good idea of what gender is and what their gender is in particular. Only 0.5-0.6% of people identify as transgender so the idea that these kids were only wrong half the time seems to indicate they have a pretty good idea of their gender even at that age. Otherwise there would be 99.5% desistance to match the numbers seen in the general population. 

Whats your stance on kids eating nothing but candy all day because thats what they want? Would you just let them? And yes, I know its not the same comparison. Just an example of when a kid does not know what its talking about.

But its simple. You dont have to encourage the thought of a toddler. You can explain a little to the kid and let him still claim it or deny it. Not take all their boy close and burn it and buy dresses. You might not believe it, but kids change their minds all the time, so you might not want to take what they say and carve it in stone. 

And about your resistance 99.5% is just absurd. This is just the people being observed. Transgender has exploded recently and parents are doubting their parenting even more. I would not be surprised if at any point in time in our youth we thought we were something else. Just our parents dint think any of it just child play. Now a 2 year old says something and they run to a psychologist. Like you said, trans are a tiny fraction of the population so its easier to study. But the general population is harder to study cuz untill something happens that splits them, then they are a control group.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Torillian said:

The psychiatric community appears to think so. I tend to defer to the experts where possible. I haven't spent years studying child psychology so I assume they know more about it than I do. Hopefully if a psychiatrist had a question on bioinorganic chemistry they would afford me the same respect.

The problem is that the psychiatric community is being highly politicized on this subject.  It seems that anything mildly contradictory of the "right" answer on the subject the science is silenced.  We went through the same thing a few decades back when gender roles were marked as completely behavioral because that's where the political winds were blowing back then.  And we found plenty of examples of tragedy emanating from that bit of group think.

I would mark this as a blight on psychology and science in general.  I do not trust them on the subject and find their opinions of little use.

To answer the original poster, yes I believe this is child abuse.  A three-year-old is not capable of making such a life-altering decision and the gender confusion created by parents and psychologists and teachers pretending with an undeveloped mind that doesn't know the difference between real and imagined is just terrible.

My personal view on the trans subject in general is that the common view is misguided.  We should call everyone what they biologically are.  A man can live the socially constructed norms of a woman if he so chooses, but that man also needs to come to grips with what he is, NOT WHAT HE WANTS TO BE.  There's an old psychology story that fits here.  A school was having trouble and decided that they should improve the students' self-esteem.  They praised the students no matter how poor their work.  The idea was that the kids would feel better about themselves and get better grades (self-esteem actually has little to do with success, but that's another matter).  Instead, all they did was increase the number of fights in the school.  See, the dumb students remained dumb, but they were being told otherwise.  It wasn't new that these students were having difficulty in school, but it was new that they were being praised.  There was a conflict where they wanted to keep pretending they were smart, but knew that it wasn't true.  When someone pierce the fantasy, they either went away feeling bad about themselves, or fought to keep their self-esteem up.  In the end, nothing good came of the program.

Everyone pretending that a person is something that they're not doesn't help anyone.  Including the person who we are humoring.  Because there will always be plenty of people who will not accept the fantasy and will say the truth.  We know that trans people are particularly hurt by this.  Well, that's because, like in the example above, they know the truth.  No matter how much social pressure there is, there is no getting around the truth.

E pur si muove (And yet it moves)

If it weren't the truth, then the person would be able to shrug it off.  You can call me a woman all day long, it wouldn't do much more than make me look at you funny.  I'll go home completely unconflicted.  The source of the pain is the loss of the breaking of the fantasy.  We need to help trans people deal with what they are.  Only then will they be able to live healthy lives.  Playing pretend for a lifetime just keeps people running into the same walls as reality keeps intruding.



John2290 said:
Torillian said:

Under your definition making my kid eat his vegetables is child abuse. He's certainly suffering. Taking away my kid's tablet or turning of the TV is also abuse. 

I've posted research indicating that kids who are supported in their gender identity have no difference in mental health outcomes compared to the average population so where is the evidence that supporting a child in their identified gender is causing enough suffering to be child abuse? Pushing one or another gender on a child, sure, but that can go either way. If you don't support a child in their identified gender and instead tell them "no you're a boy" when they say they are a girl you are being pushy just as much as someone who pushed their child to be transgender. I am arguing that supporting a child in their decision is good, regardless of age. Help them figure out who they are. Calling such parenting child abuse is honestly disgusting. 

Would you support a child in their decision to bungle jump (if it were legal) would that be what they want to do. Would you support their decision to drink alcohol, smoke weed and do other drugs would that be what they want? Perhpas join the army, a lot of kids want to do that early on, go to war and shoot guns. Should the parent support them in this or is it bad shit insane until they cone of age...

Comparing a child wearing a dress despite being born male to a child drinking alcohol or potentially dying, shows to me fairly clearly that you think that non-physical transitioning as is being discussed here is damaging. This is a position that you have still have yet to support (while those disagreeing with you have supported their positions). Making these comparisons is utilizing a false dichotomy to support a line of thinking that you still have not supported without devolving into fallacies.



As long as it's the child's wish, it's no abuse, but instead actually very beneficial. If it's done later on, The body is already producing the wrong hormones, making the change very difficult, while done early, it's not just much easier, but the child won't look like the other (old) gender anymore.

Refusing it to their child can be very detrimental for them, getting bullied for it (which happens in 99.9% of the cases; children can be cruel) won't help matters either, both effects taken together possibly scarring them for life.

Torillian said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Poor child.

Question: if a parent ignores their child who claims they are transgender and forces them to dress as a boy when they would rather dress as a girl is this also child abuse?

Could be considered mental abuse depending on how far the parents go, so potentially yes.