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At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 8 14.29%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 34 60.71%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 14 25.00%
 
Total:56
sundin13 said:
Your OP kind of frames the debate by using some loaded language that isn't really present in the examples. You claim that these parents are pushing their children, however in both examples you provided, it appears that the children are the ones who are being allowed to lead and express their own identities in the way they see fit. In my opinion, the only way to see such a thing as child abuse is if your own biases lead you to believe that Transgender identity is wrong in some way.

Transgender identity at a young age can be fake yes,in some cases it is pushed onto autistic children that are already socially confused and could very well think it is because they are supposed to be the other gender and you should care about this possibility,it is important for both the transgender community and the children involved.

Im not saying there arent real transgender indentifying kids but it is open for abuse and each situation needs to be very carefully looked at.



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Immersiveunreality said:
sundin13 said:
Your OP kind of frames the debate by using some loaded language that isn't really present in the examples. You claim that these parents are pushing their children, however in both examples you provided, it appears that the children are the ones who are being allowed to lead and express their own identities in the way they see fit. In my opinion, the only way to see such a thing as child abuse is if your own biases lead you to believe that Transgender identity is wrong in some way.

Transgender identity at a young age can be fake yes,in some cases it is pushed onto autistic children that are already socially confused and could very well think it is because they are supposed to be the other gender and you should care about this possibility,it is important for both the transgender community and the children involved.

Im not saying there arent real transgender indentifying kids but it is open for abuse and each situation needs to be very carefully looked at.

When I saw "wrong" I mean morally, ethically or religiously or something of the sort. I will edit my post to make that more clear.



LuccaCardoso1 said:
Puberty doesn't play a role in this discussion because a person's identity has nothing to do with sexuality. Using the word "encourage" is pretty shitty in this case, as it makes it sound like the parents are pushing the kids to make a decision. It's not something you should encourage, but it's something the child should know about and something that should be supported in case the child feels that way.

A 3 year old has no clue what a boy or girl even is. So its one thing to just play along until the child gets older and understands, but even doing it that will just confuse the kid even more by the time he is able to understand whats happening. So if a kid has no idea whats happening and the adult is going along with it then yes that is encouraged behavior. 

At 3 years old, kids want to be firetrucks and mermaids and princesses. They know same about sexuality so the adult going with it is just harmful to the kid.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

sundin13 said:
John2290 said:

Updated the OP to reflect any circumstance. A child with no sexual preferences and an underdeveloped brain can and should not be even considered in this debate until the early teens or puberty and even then it's questionable with teens. 

First of all, transgender identity is not a sexual preference. I'm not sure if that is what you were implying here, but that point should be made entirely clear.

Beyond that, what is the harm in allowing a child to express themselves as they see fit? In my opinion, a parenting style of forced conformity is often far more damaging to a child's development than allowing them to discover their own identity without undue pressures. Again, the only way in which I can understand someone coming to the conclusion that this is child abuse is if your own biases lead you to believe that Transgender identity is wrong in some way (ex. morally).

Immersiveunreality made me reply for me pretty much one to one. I just want to state that you are putting words in my mouth before I write anything, please ask the question and not state it as something factual, I do not think that the anything wrong with being transgender. What I do think Is wrong is this trend of considering kids to be transgender before their brain has even half developed to adulthood. I think there should be an age limit into he same way other life altering choices are age restricted. 16 would seem to be a reasonable age to start considering this with exceptions in rare cases under the examintmation of experts. 



 

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eva01beserk said:
LuccaCardoso1 said:
Puberty doesn't play a role in this discussion because a person's identity has nothing to do with sexuality. Using the word "encourage" is pretty shitty in this case, as it makes it sound like the parents are pushing the kids to make a decision. It's not something you should encourage, but it's something the child should know about and something that should be supported in case the child feels that way.

A 3 year old has no clue what a boy or girl even is. So its one thing to just play along until the child gets older and understands, but even doing it that will just confuse the kid even more by the time he is able to understand whats happening. So if a kid has no idea whats happening and the adult is going along with it then yes that is encouraged behavior. 

At 3 years old, kids want to be firetrucks and mermaids and princesses. They know same about sexuality so the adult going with it is just harmful to the kid.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4955762/#R40

"Children as young as 2 years learn to label themselves as a boy or a girl, and by age 4–5, are able to understand that gender is a stable and lasting aspect of their identity.40 Boys and girls have group differences in toy preference by as early as 12 months and can label other children as boys or girls by age 2.41"

Research seems to indicate that 3 year olds are not that far off from the normal age by which children understand the concept of gender. What information do you have that indicates otherwise?



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John2290 said:
sundin13 said:

First of all, transgender identity is not a sexual preference. I'm not sure if that is what you were implying here, but that point should be made entirely clear.

Beyond that, what is the harm in allowing a child to express themselves as they see fit? In my opinion, a parenting style of forced conformity is often far more damaging to a child's development than allowing them to discover their own identity without undue pressures. Again, the only way in which I can understand someone coming to the conclusion that this is child abuse is if your own biases lead you to believe that Transgender identity is wrong in some way (ex. morally).

Immersiveunreality made me reply for me pretty much one to one. I just want to state that you are putting words in my mouth before I write anything, please ask the question and not state it as something factual, I do not think that the anything wrong with being transgender. What I do think Is wrong is this trend of considering kids to be transgender before their brain has even half developed to adulthood. I think there should be an age limit into he same way other life altering choices are age restricted. 16 would seem to be a reasonable age to start considering this with exceptions in rare cases under the examintmation of experts. 

How many of these choices are being made without an examination by experts? Pretty sure any parent that thinks their child is transgender or gender non-conforming will take them to see a child psychiatrist unless they literally can't afford it. 

I'll have to look to see if there's been any research on how many of these decisions are being made without the input of experts as you seem to be implying. 



...

"Most children typically develop the ability to recognize and label stereotypical gender groups, such as girl, woman and feminine, and boy, man and masculine, between ages 18 and 24 months. Most also categorize their own gender by age 3 years. However, because gender stereotypes are reinforced, some children learn to behave in ways that bring them the most reward, despite their authentic gender identity. At ages 5 to 6 years, most children are rigid about gender stereotypes and preferences. These feelings typically become more flexible with age."

Mayo Clinic

Might add a little bit to the discussion.



                                                                                                                                            

John2290 said:
sundin13 said:

First of all, transgender identity is not a sexual preference. I'm not sure if that is what you were implying here, but that point should be made entirely clear.

Beyond that, what is the harm in allowing a child to express themselves as they see fit? In my opinion, a parenting style of forced conformity is often far more damaging to a child's development than allowing them to discover their own identity without undue pressures. Again, the only way in which I can understand someone coming to the conclusion that this is child abuse is if your own biases lead you to believe that Transgender identity is wrong in some way (ex. morally).

Immersiveunreality made me reply for me pretty much one to one. I just want to state that you are putting words in my mouth before I write anything, please ask the question and not state it as something factual, I do not think that the anything wrong with being transgender. What I do think Is wrong is this trend of considering kids to be transgender before their brain has even half developed to adulthood. I think there should be an age limit into he same way other life altering choices are age restricted. 16 would seem to be a reasonable age to start considering this with exceptions in rare cases under the examintmation of experts. 

We are not talking about physical transitioning here. No three year old is undertaking hormone therapy. As such, we are not talking about life altering decisions. There is nothing life altering about a child who was born a male wearing a dress and growing their hair out. If it is determined that the child is not transgendered at the time in which physical transitioning typically starts, they could simply not transition.



https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/137/3/e20153223
Interesting research I found while looking around. Conclusion is that children who are supported in their transgender identification show no differences in mental health indicators compared to the average population. Kinda goes against the "transgender people are sick and we shouldn't encourage them" meme that people like Ben Shapiro like to trot out there while they antagonize every trans person they see.



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Torillian said:
eva01beserk said:

A 3 year old has no clue what a boy or girl even is. So its one thing to just play along until the child gets older and understands, but even doing it that will just confuse the kid even more by the time he is able to understand whats happening. So if a kid has no idea whats happening and the adult is going along with it then yes that is encouraged behavior. 

At 3 years old, kids want to be firetrucks and mermaids and princesses. They know same about sexuality so the adult going with it is just harmful to the kid.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4955762/#R40

"Children as young as 2 years learn to label themselves as a boy or a girl, and by age 4–5, are able to understand that gender is a stable and lasting aspect of their identity.40 Boys and girls have group differences in toy preference by as early as 12 months and can label other children as boys or girls by age 2.41"

Research seems to indicate that 3 year olds are not that far off from the normal age by which children understand the concept of gender. What information do you have that indicates otherwise?

https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-research-on-desistance-in-transgender-youth

about 65-94 percent of those confused kids just grow out of it. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.