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Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

 

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 10 14.93%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 40 59.70%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 17 25.37%
 
Total:67
StriderKiwi said:
This is a very serious and multi-faceted topic that I will try my best to explain my current stance on it. Apologies in advance if it comes across as scattered.

I'm not a parent, but from talking with and observing many parents and child psychologists, I'm of the opinion that pre-teens (and even in some cases teenage) gender swapping/transitioning, especially when encouraged by the parents is poor parenting and yes child abuse.

Some children identify as fire trucks and other non gendered objects in early ages. Sexuality in general is an odd and oft debated topic, especially in the contemporary. The data suggests that people's sexual identity and preferences are dependent on their parenting and how their male/female parental role models behaved with each other and towards the child.

For the record, Charlize Theron, is a single mother with two adopted children, divorced from her husband, living in a specific area of the US that comes of a great deal of scrutiny for it's controversial opinions. Take of all of that whatever you will.

One last point, transitioned individuals (adults, teens and children) often suffer from extreme depression, regret of their decision, and are at high risk of suicide.

First of all, as many individuals have already said, gender identity is not sexuality. The two things should not be conflated.

Second, while some very young children may claim to be non-human things, simply saying you are something isn't really the requirements that we are speaking about here. The general guideline asks if a child is "consistent, insistent, and persistent about their transgender identity". This is typically not the case with children claiming to be firetrucks. They might claim to be a firetruck when playing with their Legos, but if you come back to them three months later there is pretty good chance that they aren't going to honestly claim to be. There is more than that, but simply saying "I heard a child say that they were a truck once so this is all invalid" is a fairly poor argument. Further, the children tend to grow out of that when they age past, like, five years old, yet you make the claim that even teens in some cases should not be allowed to express their transgender identity.

Third, you lastly point out that transitioned individuals often suffer from certain psychological issues. First of all, I would like to say that the rate of regret tends to be fairly low, especially when transitioning is done in tandem with psychological counseling and recommendation. Second, I would like to again argue that a large part of the reason that transgendered individuals have a high suicide rate is their societal treatment, including difficulty with people allowing or accepting their transition. Studies have shown that the negative psychological trends associated with transgender identity largely subside when an individual is in an accepting environment and further subside when allowed to begin transitioning before adulthood. Finally, I would again like to argue that bringing up the suicide rate as an argument against transgenderism is a very poor argument because it asserts that we should value the abuser over the abused. It is saying that the abused should stop living the way that they wish to live because society cannot help but abuse them. I argue that anyone honestly concerned with the health of transgendered individuals should allow them to transition and treat them with respect instead of telling them that they shouldn't live the way they want to.

Here is a link to an earlier post detailing some of the research indicating that quality of life increases for transgendered individuals after being allowed to transition:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9001101



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Kids would like to eat a bag of marshmallows for breakfast every day. Do we let them because that is their preference?



Hiku said:
o_O.Q said:

"They don't have to.
But asexual people exist."

my point is that you are identifying them as asexual then claiming that their sexuality has nothing to do with their identity... doesn't that strike you as ironic?


First of all when repeating something specific someone said that's available for you to copy and paste, try not to misquote them.
I said "Identity is not the same as sexuality". I did not say it "has nothing to do with it".

And are you saying you do not understand the distinction between these two concepts?

"Not the same as" meaning it's not the defining characteristic of someone's identity, or gender.
It can be part of someone's identity. And it may not be for others.
And in the case of some asexual people, sexuality is not a factor.
Some women are attracted to other women, etc.

And secondly, I'm 'identifying' them as asexual?
Are you playing semantics here?

o_O.Q said:
i did not make a strawman(since i could post examples fo this actually happening) 

You should do that instead. Because often times misunderstandings occur. Case in point, like how you were convinced that I meant that sexuality has 'nothing to do with' identity. Even though you could just read what I said.
But instead you're ridiculing anyone who recognize themselves in "fighting to reduce the differences between men and women", without singling anyone out. Which conveniently absolves you from having to back up your claim, or being retorted.

o_O.Q said:

and i do not know what flamebaiting is"Fighting for gender equal rights in society does not mean they think there is no difference between men and women.You know that."i'd appreciate it very much if you didn't try to tell me what i actually believewhat does fighting for gender equal rights mean exactly? are you implying that we have one set of laws for men and another for women?as far as i understand we have one set of laws and we apply those laws to both genders, can you elaborate on what you mean by fighting for gender equal rights?

I'd be more inclined to believe that you don't know what you were doing if it weren't for your very extensive history of getting in trouble for antagonizing others, flaming, trolling, etc. I can say that you know exactly what you're doing, even if you don't appreciate that.

And rather than asking me to give you a crash course in the fight for social equality, which I can already see how it'll devolve given you've gotten in trouble over this very subject before, how about you quote the specific comments you were referring to earlier?

That way those people get a chance to respond and defend themselves, rather than it just being one sided with you taking jabs at them, and the rest of us can see if they really are the equivalent of flip-flopping, as you claim.

"my point is that you are identifying them as asexual then claiming that their sexuality has nothing to do with their identity"

"I said "Identity is not the same as sexuality". I did not say it "has nothing to do with it"."

"It can be part of someone's identity. And it may not be for others.
And in the case of some asexual people, sexuality is not a factor."

"You should do that instead. Because often times misunderstandings occur. Case in point, like how you were convinced that I meant that sexuality has 'nothing to do with' identity."

"my point is that you are identifying them as asexual then claiming that their sexuality has nothing to do with their identity"

"It can be part of someone's identity. And it may not be for others.
And in the case of some asexual people, sexuality is not a factor."

"But instead you're ridiculing anyone who recognize themselves in "fighting to reduce the differences between men and women""

i ridiculed no one, you make it sound like a crime to be amused at things

"I'd be more inclined to believe that you don't know what you were doing if it weren't for your very extensive history of getting in trouble for antagonizing others, flaming, trolling, etc."

i've been on this site now for i think 8 years and over that period of time if i remember correctly, i've been banned about 3 times

the first time was for using an image that wasn't proportioned correctly and the other two were for arguments... are you really trying to tell me that this equates to an "extensive history"?

"I can say that you know exactly what you're doing, even if you don't appreciate that."

i don't because there's nothing to discuss if you just make the assertion that you understand what my intent is 

what am i supposed to say to that? stop calling me a liar?

"And rather than asking me to give you a crash course in the fight for social equality"

i did not i asked you a couple simple questions in order to clarify what your position is and you appear to have refused to do so, which is of course ok, its a free country but don't pretend as if i've asked some unreasonably enormous task of you

to reiterate the questions are:

"what does fighting for gender equal rights mean exactly? are you implying that we have one set of laws for men and another for women?as far as i understand we have one set of laws and we apply those laws to both genders, can you elaborate on what you mean by fighting for gender equal rights?"

"how it'll devolve given you've gotten in trouble over this very subject before"

i have never been banned for a discussion on this topic before if i remember correctly, because as far as i know my posts have always been helpful and informative with regards to my opinions and pertinent and concise with regards to my questions

i find it alarming that you have a different opinion of me



Wiibaron said:
Kids would like to eat a bag of marshmallows for breakfast every day. Do we let them because that is their preference?

Can you give me an argument for why that is a reasonable example compared to kids having questions about their gender? 



...

Those children could think they are a Chair. WHO Cares? Science is telling us that you are either Born with XX or XY Chromosomes. Thats all. You can Feel AS an XY or an XX but that doesnt make you to a XY or XX. You are what you are. Feelings and believies are belonging to the church and has No place in sciene.



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Pagan said:

Those children could think they are a Chair. WHO Cares? Science is telling us that you are either Born with XX or XY Chromosomes. Thats all. You can Feel AS an XY or an XX but that doesnt make you to a XY or XX. You are what you are. Feelings and believies are belonging to the church and has No place in sciene.

Not only is that objectively false, but it is also ridiculous. Please stop acting like you are some scientific authority when you don't even realize that intersex individuals exist. That said, no one is claiming that chromosomes are changing during transition. All your strawmanning is doing is showing that you have no idea what you are talking about.



sundin13 said:
Pagan said:

Those children could think they are a Chair. WHO Cares? Science is telling us that you are either Born with XX or XY Chromosomes. Thats all. You can Feel AS an XY or an XX but that doesnt make you to a XY or XX. You are what you are. Feelings and believies are belonging to the church and has No place in sciene.

Not only is that objectively false, but it is also ridiculous. Please stop acting like you are some scientific authority when you don't even realize that intersex individuals exist. That said, no one is claiming that chromosomes are changing during transition. All your strawmanning is doing is showing that you have no idea what you are talking about.

and individuals with 8 limbs exist

that doesn't mean however that we throw away the classification of humans as being 4 limbed animals right?

classifications work off of what is typical, abnormalities existing does not mean that we should throw away classifications imo, but supposedly you think otherwise?



Yeah, its stupid on every possible level.A child, up to its 18 years(give or take), shouldnt be allowed to make such a life changing decision, simply because its brain is still developing and as a teen, he/she isnt even sure yet as to what he/she wants.

Im not against doing the surgery, but Im completely against doing it prior to a point in which the guy/girl, having experienced life and learned about it, can make a more educated guess on something that will impact the rest of his/her life.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Child abuse is not allowing your kid to express in the way he/she is, and treat her/him as a person with a mental illness or believing it is just a "stage" and trying hard to make everything to look "normal" without considering what is happening. I am trans, and i had to wait until 21 to become who I am cause my parents didnt know how to manage the situation, that was abuse.



Nautilus said:
Yeah, its stupid on every possible level.A child, up to its 18 years(give or take), shouldnt be allowed to make such a life changing decision, simply because its brain is still developing and as a teen, he/she isnt even sure yet as to what he/she wants.

Im not against doing the surgery, but Im completely against doing it prior to a point in which the guy/girl, having experienced life and learned about it, can make a more educated guess on something that will impact the rest of his/her life.

Honestly, 18 seems pretty extreme. Even if you say "give or take" that would only detract a few years. I know that people go through awkward stages when they're going through puberty, but I would think that's around the time where you start to have an extraordinarily concrete idea of how you relate to society (even if gender = / = sexuality). That's just a guess though.

The brain doesn't stop developing till 25 and yet we still allow people who are 18 to vote. We also don't discriminate against the elderly despite them having a greater chance of not having the best mental faculties. We shouldn't be using this kind of standard of brain development so inconsistently.