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PS5 Confirmed Backward Compatibility

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Solid-Stark said:
It doesn't sound like a $399 machine. I'm okay with it costing more, but past trends have demonstrated anything higher hasn't been too successful. Maybe it'll be $449 at a loss?

That or Sony is prepping two models, and we are hearing about the top tier one.

Anyway, BC will be much appreciated.

I wouldnt say that is quite so.

XboxOne actually had a pretty strong launch period, but it couldnt justify the $499 price figure with Sony having better messaging, more savvy marketing, and being bundled to a DOA kinect device.

Even the Xbox X has been pretty stable sales wise. PS4 BC will go a long way to help justifying that price. Good Software will too, but yes I admit that it is definitely not the sweet point the PS4 started at.

OTBWY said:
I just want to be able to play Xenogears with no hassle. No damned region locking via its network.

Xenogears? I feel like you should worry more about whether PS1 is even included in the PS5 BC first



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Pemalite said:
taus90 said:

I feel he think it some insider who leaked some PS5 info :D 

Pemalite: Also Just because something was introduced few years but didnt take off doesnt, mean cant be brought back on a better Hardware? (VR), even Sony has been Using 3D audio with different techniques and Ray tracing will be the new thing Not to forget Sony did recently acquire Audiokinetic

P.S. I wont be surprised if HZD2 Ai will use ray tracing collision detection.  

I meant things like the drive configurations and so on that everyone is commenting on without us actually having all the facts.

There is still allot of unknowns at this point.... Like how powerful the console is going to be which everyone seems to be throwing ideas around on. (Like dedicated Ray Tracing hardware and 80 CU's.)

taus90 said:

Did u miss crytek demonstration of Real time ray tracing solution for Cryengine 5.5's which is API and hardware agnostic and running on current gen GPUs. Do u have any doubt Sony's WWS will have a problem coming up with their own Ray tracing solution for their inhouse Engines given the right hardware?

I am not saying your assertion is either correct or incorrect, merely just asking for evidence.

Well I think everyone here is making an assumption based on what has been provided by Cerny and how it could be achievable, given the available and upcoming tech for PC's. Sure Navi is based on GCN and it will be probably Navi 10 also AMD's focus with Navi was to fix GCN previous shortcoming and make it more efficient. Yet We don't know anything what Navi has to offer and many reports suggest Navi will have an answer Nvidia RTX, whether Raytracing support is achieved by asynchronous compute or has an dedicated Hardware remains to be seen 7/7



twintail said:
OTBWY said:
I just want to be able to play Xenogears with no hassle. No damned region locking via its network.

Xenogears? I feel like you should worry more about whether PS1 is even included in the PS5 BC first

That... kind of comes with it. 

Sony has for some reason been dropping the ball on just releasing their PS1 load onto their main system. I for the life of me can't understand why they don't invest in this more. Seeing how they handled the PS Classic, I think they just don't care.



OTBWY said:
twintail said:

Xenogears? I feel like you should worry more about whether PS1 is even included in the PS5 BC first

That... kind of comes with it. 

Sony has for some reason been dropping the ball on just releasing their PS1 load onto their main system. I for the life of me can't understand why they don't invest in this more. Seeing how they handled the PS Classic, I think they just don't care.

Even if they did it wouldnt be what we had on ps3/ psp. There's a very good chance the games were only licensed for those emulators and any modification nulls the licensing.

I imagine when they began the ps4 gen that the idea they would move forward with bc onto ps5 was not something being discussed. But since it is happening i csn see them doing another emulator (for ps4 with ps5?). But the games are going to have to be licensed again so it will be a while till its tbe same library.



twintail said:
OTBWY said:

That... kind of comes with it. 

Sony has for some reason been dropping the ball on just releasing their PS1 load onto their main system. I for the life of me can't understand why they don't invest in this more. Seeing how they handled the PS Classic, I think they just don't care.

Even if they did it wouldnt be what we had on ps3/ psp. There's a very good chance the games were only licensed for those emulators and any modification nulls the licensing.

I imagine when they began the ps4 gen that the idea they would move forward with bc onto ps5 was not something being discussed. But since it is happening i csn see them doing another emulator (for ps4 with ps5?). But the games are going to have to be licensed again so it will be a while till its tbe same library.

A centralized platform that can play all legacy content is of immense value to me. It is one of those retro must haves and there isn't something like that for playstation yet. Instead of waiting for an FPGA solution, the PS5 can fill that role. And yes, that means physical disc compatibility. 



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OTBWY said:
twintail said:

Even if they did it wouldnt be what we had on ps3/ psp. There's a very good chance the games were only licensed for those emulators and any modification nulls the licensing.

I imagine when they began the ps4 gen that the idea they would move forward with bc onto ps5 was not something being discussed. But since it is happening i csn see them doing another emulator (for ps4 with ps5?). But the games are going to have to be licensed again so it will be a while till its tbe same library.

A centralized platform that can play all legacy content is of immense value to me. It is one of those retro must haves and there isn't something like that for playstation yet. Instead of waiting for an FPGA solution, the PS5 can fill that role. And yes, that means physical disc compatibility. 

Totally. That is the ideal situation but it seems unlikely to go that far. PS4 discs might even be a bit of a question mark.

BC is great news, but definitely we need to see how it is all done.



taus90 said:
Pemalite said:

I meant things like the drive configurations and so on that everyone is commenting on without us actually having all the facts.

There is still allot of unknowns at this point.... Like how powerful the console is going to be which everyone seems to be throwing ideas around on. (Like dedicated Ray Tracing hardware and 80 CU's.)

I am not saying your assertion is either correct or incorrect, merely just asking for evidence.

Well I think everyone here is making an assumption based on what has been provided by Cerny and how it could be achievable, given the available and upcoming tech for PC's. Sure Navi is based on GCN and it will be probably Navi 10 also AMD's focus with Navi was to fix GCN previous shortcoming and make it more efficient. Yet We don't know anything what Navi has to offer and many reports suggest Navi will have an answer Nvidia RTX, whether Raytracing support is achieved by asynchronous compute or has an dedicated Hardware remains to be seen 7/7

Graphics Core Next is efficient. It's just not efficient at gaming, it's a very compute centric design... And because of such only shows it's true potential when backed with inordinate amounts of memory bandwidth to keep everything fed... Which is where Asynchronous compute came into play.

Navi is likely to be a Polaris replacement... A Mid-Range part, but implement some of the newer tricks found in Vega like Draw Stream Binning Rasterization, Primitive Shaders and so on. (And probably make them work the majority of the time!). - It will also likely see the bulk of it's performance gains with a re-balancing of the functional units to achieve more throughput in gaming orientated workloads and a couple of new tricks. But it's still Graphics Core Next with all it's Pro's and many many many Con's.

I doubt AMD will take the approach nVidia has with Ray Tracing and include components specifically for that task (RT Cores) that cost transistors, rather they will do what they have historically done and rework their shader pipelines to make them more effective with those tasks...
Remember we have been down a similar path before... nVidia with the Geforce FX/5 spent a ton of transistors on retaining fixed-function hardware like TnL, whilst AMD with the Radeon 9700 series spent it's transistor budget on more general-purpose hardware... And well. The rest is history.

Vega 7 for instance is able to do 1 Gigarays compared to the Geforce RTX 2080 8.

And in Claybook Vega 64 is doing 9.76 Gigarays which is a pretty impressive feat.

So I think AMD will leverage GCN's inherent compute strengths and simply make it more flexible to lend itself better to Ray Tracing. But that's an assertion at this point, I don't think AMD has the turn-around time to bake dedicated Ray Tracing hardware into it's GPU's on such a short notice, maybe with it's Next-Gen hardware.



twintail said:
OTBWY said:

A centralized platform that can play all legacy content is of immense value to me. It is one of those retro must haves and there isn't something like that for playstation yet. Instead of waiting for an FPGA solution, the PS5 can fill that role. And yes, that means physical disc compatibility. 

Totally. That is the ideal situation but it seems unlikely to go that far. PS4 discs might even be a bit of a question mark.

BC is great news, but definitely we need to see how it is all done.

Is there reasoning behind this thought or is it just a wild hunch?



Hunting Season is done...

Pemalite said:
taus90 said:

Well I think everyone here is making an assumption based on what has been provided by Cerny and how it could be achievable, given the available and upcoming tech for PC's. Sure Navi is based on GCN and it will be probably Navi 10 also AMD's focus with Navi was to fix GCN previous shortcoming and make it more efficient. Yet We don't know anything what Navi has to offer and many reports suggest Navi will have an answer Nvidia RTX, whether Raytracing support is achieved by asynchronous compute or has an dedicated Hardware remains to be seen 7/7

Graphics Core Next is efficient. It's just not efficient at gaming, it's a very compute centric design... And because of such only shows it's true potential when backed with inordinate amounts of memory bandwidth to keep everything fed... Which is where Asynchronous compute came into play.

Navi is likely to be a Polaris replacement... A Mid-Range part, but implement some of the newer tricks found in Vega like Draw Stream Binning Rasterization, Primitive Shaders and so on. (And probably make them work the majority of the time!). - It will also likely see the bulk of it's performance gains with a re-balancing of the functional units to achieve more throughput in gaming orientated workloads and a couple of new tricks. But it's still Graphics Core Next with all it's Pro's and many many many Con's.

I doubt AMD will take the approach nVidia has with Ray Tracing and include components specifically for that task (RT Cores) that cost transistors, rather they will do what they have historically done and rework their shader pipelines to make them more effective with those tasks...
Remember we have been down a similar path before... nVidia with the Geforce FX/5 spent a ton of transistors on retaining fixed-function hardware like TnL, whilst AMD with the Radeon 9700 series spent it's transistor budget on more general-purpose hardware... And well. The rest is history.

Vega 7 for instance is able to do 1 Gigarays compared to the Geforce RTX 2080 8.

And in Claybook Vega 64 is doing 9.76 Gigarays which is a pretty impressive feat.

So I think AMD will leverage GCN's inherent compute strengths and simply make it more flexible to lend itself better to Ray Tracing. But that's an assertion at this point, I don't think AMD has the turn-around time to bake dedicated Ray Tracing hardware into it's GPU's on such a short notice, maybe with it's Next-Gen hardware.

Thats the point even going by the GCN specs we can speculate what will be the performance limitation for NAVI, but still a huge part of the development for Navi is still unknown the only leak I can find on the internet regarding the development is that AMD was looking to improve Geometry engine, which has been problematic area for GCN. 

And I don't remember the article or the year but it was i think 2018 interview where AMD CEO Lisa Su revealed that more than half of the staff from RTG were redirected from Vega on to improving Navi and that it was particularly being designed for Sony, It could be a possibility that Sony might have jumped in mid Navi development and suggested some changes of their own (IBM,Cell) , Now what those changes or secret sauce could be is completely unknown.

P.S. Wont be Surprised if Ps5 makes an appearance at Navi Reveal on July 7



drkohler said:
DonFerrari said:

.....snip slightly overoptimistic profit calculation

I think we should add a few frontloaded expenses that change your rosy view:

a) Cost of making prototypes. Given how extremely expensive a large 7nm design is (currently), and assuming Sony actually has some working prototypes of PS5s (i.e. they are not high-specced PCs, we can very roughly add >=500M for developing the SoC (and whatever goes with it, peanuts in comparison to the SoC).

b) Every mask failure adds xyM costs to the development cycle.

c) Making, say, functional developer units at 25k a piece adds another xyzM to the bill

d) Final masks for the PS5, producing an initial run of consoles = 100M

e) Actually paying for PS+ (Sony gets a fraction of what you pay with your PS+ subscription, most is for renting hardware/maintaining own hardware and software people)

f) Adjust for money you don't actually can invest if you sell consoles at a great loss instead of break-even on it.

g) All the stuff I forgot to add to the list (like demo units for shops, etc, new surround heaphones, PSVR2, etc. etc.). The list would probably go to z)

Yes you are right that I oversimplified. But the only relevant point was showing that selling PS5 at 200 loss today is less troublesome than it was on PS3. With PS3 it meant massive losses overall, but today and with standard pieces it is totally achievable.

spemanig said:
DonFerrari said:

Ok for the first point, on the second point you are among very few people that expect a lot of savings from missing the disc. X1 discless and PSP Go are here to show customers didn't got much on the way of real saving. X1 discless MSRP 250 USD, but you regularly already find under 220 X1S.

Dude, that's an insanely disingenuous comparison. You're comparing the fringe discounts of a 3 year old model to the one-day-old announcement price of a new digital-only model without discounts. If they were launched at the same time, the implication to be made is that it still would have been $50 less, just like it is now for the undiscounted price. Had this model been 3 years old like the current XBO S, it would likely be just as easy to find at $170. I don't see how PS5 would be any different.

TO customers what matters is the price they pay and features.

This new model doesn't do anything more than the previous, but do less and for more money, that is a very bad proposition.

Also I'm just showing you that the drive itself is less than 30 USD on the system, so it doesn't really lower the entry price.

CGI-Quality said:
jason1637 said:

source?

TranceformerFX said:

My reaction as well. There's a 80% probability it'll be 16GB. 20 usable for games? Lawl... It'll be 8 for games 8 for OS/Console functionality.

This is just speculation on my part, but I'm betting that Sony will be emphasizing alot of 4k OS functionality for the PS5 where the 8GB will be necessary. I think they'll have BIG plans for the PS5's OS and new kick ass features.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/official-playstation-next-gen-plans-2020-wired-exclusive-article-ray-tracing-bc-ssd-more.111777/page-73#post-19929295

Post #3648

By now, it should be obvious that I don't post rumors out of nowhere. ^_^

CGI I would like to see your input on they having 8GB of HBM2 and 16GB of DDR4. How much impact such different type of RAM and their bandwidhts would have on the balancing and use on the system? Could they use it seemless to have the slower RAM working on the parts that need more memory but lower speed and HBM for the more urgent tasks? Or is that a good way to take on the ineficiency of GCN on needing plenty of memory and bandwidth to keep CUs feed? Also if Sony accepted slightly slower multitasking the 8Gb of RAM for the OS could be increased using the other 16Gb for game right, or perhaps OS doesn't change the RAM but the other apps when initializing get some of the gaming RAM, just like on PS4 some apps will put game in suspension and others will have other apps closed before running.

Cerebralbore101 said:
TranceformerFX said:

My reaction as well. There's a 80% probability it'll be 16GB. 20 usable for games? Lawl... It'll be 8 for games 8 for OS/Console functionality.

This is just speculation on my part, but I'm betting that Sony will be emphasizing alot of 4k OS functionality for the PS5 where the 8GB will be necessary. I think they'll have BIG plans for the PS5's OS and new kick ass features.

8 GB of RAM for the OS would be a bloated OS. No thanks. Switch's OS is the best OS, because it boots up instantly, just plays games, and only takes up 300 KB of space. 

If it was on my taste the console wouldn't even have OS. I would have all dedicated to gaming and buy another electronic (or use what I already have) for different tasks. But if the 8 GB of OS RAM cost very little on the PS5 budget I'm fine with it.

Pemalite said:
taus90 said:

I feel he think it some insider who leaked some PS5 info :D 

Pemalite: Also Just because something was introduced few years but didnt take off doesnt, mean cant be brought back on a better Hardware? (VR), even Sony has been Using 3D audio with different techniques and Ray tracing will be the new thing Not to forget Sony did recently acquire Audiokinetic

P.S. I wont be surprised if HZD2 Ai will use ray tracing collision detection.  

I meant things like the drive configurations and so on that everyone is commenting on without us actually having all the facts.

There is still allot of unknowns at this point.... Like how powerful the console is going to be which everyone seems to be throwing ideas around on. (Like dedicated Ray Tracing hardware and 80 CU's.)

taus90 said:

Did u miss crytek demonstration of Real time ray tracing solution for Cryengine 5.5's which is API and hardware agnostic and running on current gen GPUs. Do u have any doubt Sony's WWS will have a problem coming up with their own Ray tracing solution for their inhouse Engines given the right hardware?

I am not saying your assertion is either correct or incorrect, merely just asking for evidence.

DonFerrari said:

It is no rumor, it is an interview with Cerny.

Sony can sell it for 399 if they want, it certainly won't cost less than it to make though. And I wasn't aiming at you, but you know that in that thread it was about "SSD is impossible, even if small, consoles are price sensitive so they will only use HDD".

I was aware that Stadia would beat X1X, but what I had was that it was close, not about twice stronger. That is good =]

To be fair, my original assumption was for a device that targeted a $400 USD price point.
Consoles that are priced higher like the Xbox One X obviously can spend more on various components.

twintail said:

Not saying you are wrong but I have a hard time believing that Cerny of all ppl made a mistake here, especially in what is most likely a pretty controller interview.

That said, Digital Foundry have claimed that the hardware details Sony have announced actually does support ray tracing, and that Nvidia have been able to give older graphic cards through software. So Sony's solution could be software based though an employee at Naughty Dog seemed to suggest that it is actually hardware based.

Ray Tracing has been possible for years, it really depends how extensive you wish to implement the technology, the more robust your implementation of Ray Tracing is... The more hardware you need to throw at the problem.
Digital Foundry also recognizes this, hence their claim why it's technically possible to do on a base Xbox One.

And to be fair... Games were starting to dabble in Ray Tracing even on the 7th gen with a few path traced games in a few deferred renderer engines.

Mr_No said:

but what I'm very excited for is all this BC talk. PlayStation 4 BC has me excited, but what I'm keeping an eye on is on the patents they've filed months ago regarding a BC method to play the previous games, particularly PS3 ones. If there's PS3 BC confirmed, whether it's physical, digital or streaming, I'd be very pleased.

Indeed. It is certainly a good thing, competitive pressure from Microsoft has likely assisted to that end... As original Sony was fairly dismissive of the idea of backwards compatibility for one reason or another on the Playstation 4.

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/250579-everybody-always-claims-want-console-backwards-compatibility-doesnt-anybody-use

I would like a full extensive roll out though across every Playstation console, not a curated approach like Microsoft. - Both approaches have their Pro's and Con's obviously, but I digress.

CGI-Quality said:

Rumored RAM leak...

24 GB RAM in total (20 GB usable by games)

8 GB in form of 2 * 4-Hi stacks HBM2

I won't believe it until Cerny/Sony states that himself. I'm thinking more along the lines of 16GB (HBM2 or G6) with 4GB of DDR4 for the OS for a total of 20GB.

I concur. GDDR6 seems to be the more economical choice right now. But hey, if it has HBM2... I will be pleasantly surprised.

ratchet426 said:

I don't think he's talking about a regular 2.5" SATA SSD that you can plop into a PS4 today. It must be an M.2 PCIe SSD card, which is much faster than a regular SATA SSD interface.

SATA SSDs have a maximum speed of 600 MB per second, while M.2 PCIe cards can reach 4 GB per second.

We have absolutely no idea about the drive configurations. - For all we know it's a chunk of NAND soldered onto the motherboard with a PCI-E 4.0 interconnect that caches a spinning mechanical hard drive... And such an approach would possibly not just cache an internal mechanical hard drive.. But potentially external mechanical drives as well.

We aren't at a point where we can install all our games on NAND... Heck, have 13 Terabytes total on my Xbox One X and I am thinking about boosting even that amount.

DonFerrari said:

We don't have much on PS5 to compare besides what is in the OP.

If the 14TF target it could mean 40% extra.

You can ask around here, the drive doesn't cost more than 30. MS discless X1 is MSRP 250 and MS promissed it will always be 50 cheaper than X1S, that considering margin and they pushing a new model, X1S had a 4K drive, etc.

Real world performance will be more. The Xbox One X chip isn't using the latest and greatest of Graphics Core Next... So there is efficiency gains to be had with Navi, heck even Vega.

drkohler said:

I think we should add a few frontloaded expenses that change your rosy view:

a) Cost of making prototypes. Given how extremely expensive a large 7nm design is (currently), and assuming Sony actually has some working prototypes of PS5s (i.e. they are not high-specced PCs, we can very roughly add >=500M for developing the SoC (and whatever goes with it, peanuts in comparison to the SoC).

By 2020 7nm should be far more mature than it is currently, so Sony and Microsoft may be willing to invest in larger chips initially.

The_Liquid_Laser said:

PS4 was considered a conservative console when it was released.  PS3 was considered an ambitious console.  PS4 just happened to be more powerful than it's two competitors, because they both focused on expensive peripherals instead of hardware specs. 
  

Not as simple as that I am afraid. The chips themselves have a correlated increase in cost with increases in size.
The Xbox One's APU was roughly the same size as the Playstation 4's yet substantially inferior in terms of overall capability. - That is because of the ESRAM took up a chunk of the chip size.

fordy said:

There is a reason why the PC does not use NAND as a high traffic swap cache, and that has to do with the limited number of write cycles that NAND is limited to, which is overcome in Optane.

The thing with using NAND as a high-traffic swap cache is the idea of one write, many reads.
Which is why Readyboost cache was a thing, which is why the Corsair Accelerator existed and why the Sandisk Radycache was rather popular for awhile.
Add onto the mechanical drives with a chunk of NAND like the Seagate Firecuda SSHD.... And it's actually a common idea.

Optane is NAND which is optimized for it's task, rather than using commodity chips.

Cerebralbore101 said:

6. PC gaming wasn't quite as popular back in 2006. Nowadays a lot of people spend $1000 on a PC. So a $600 console doesn't seem like such an extravagance in this day and age.Â

Wut

Hey I know you and CGI were being conservative and mindfull on your expectations at the console releasing @399 without massive losses, thus I said I was joking on seeing Sony troll both of you.

About the Stadia comparison, HW being more than twice as powerfull because of efficiency I understand, but also on real world we have to consider the internet infrastructure for most customers, and in this scenario I would say I see Stadia performing worse than PS4Pro to most customers.

I made the question to CGI above, but I also would like to see your input on they having 8GB of HBM2 and 16GB of DDR4. How much impact such different type of RAM and their bandwidhts would have on the balancing and use on the system? Could they use it seemless to have the slower RAM working on the parts that need more memory but lower speed and HBM for the more urgent tasks? Or is that a good way to take on the ineficiency of GCN on needing plenty of memory and bandwidth to keep CUs feed? Also if Sony accepted slightly slower multitasking the 8Gb of RAM for the OS could be increased using the other 16Gb for game right, or perhaps OS doesn't change the RAM but the other apps when initializing get some of the gaming RAM, just like on PS4 some apps will put game in suspension and others will have other apps closed before running.

Zoombael said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

LOL, thank you.  I needed a good laugh.

You re welcome. I can laugh about the staggering ignorance people like you chose to display.

Yep, just look on VGC for tracking of the first year of PS3, even at 599 it had plenty of people buying (aligned it never sold less than X360), but certainly the sales potential at launch @399 is different than @599.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994