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GoT season 8 final episode 6 tonight. (spoiler discussion) Fin. The end... for ever.

Forums - General Discussion - GoT season 8 final episode 6 tonight. (spoiler discussion) Fin. The end... for ever.

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Total:43
KiigelHeart said:

One of the better episodes of the season. I have no idea why people think Dany's snapping was too sudden. It's been hinted and her character developed to it for many seasons.

Not that she would kill innocent people.
She had killed enemies, and traitors who refused to yield. There's a long way between that and focusing on melting innocent women and children while giving Cercei (the real enemy) time to escape. 

Foreshadowing is not the same as having a proper and satisfying conclusion.

Last edited by Hiku - on 15 May 2019

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Hiku said:
KiigelHeart said:

One of the better episodes of the season. I have no idea why people think Dany's snapping was too sudden. It's been hinted and her character developed to it for many seasons.

Not that she would kill innocent people.
She had killed enemies, and traitors who refused to yield. There's a long way between that and focusing on melting innocent women and children while giving Cercei (the real enemy) time to escape. 

Yeah when the bells were ringing and there was the shot of her staring at the Red Keep, I thought for sure she was going to go straight to it to deal with Cersei and that would have been in character and in line with her previous actions but for her to take a 20 minute detour to kill thousands of civilians just doesn't make sense.



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TruckOSaurus said:
Hiku said:

Not that she would kill innocent people.
She had killed enemies, and traitors who refused to yield. There's a long way between that and focusing on melting innocent women and children while giving Cercei (the real enemy) time to escape. 

Yeah when the bells were ringing and there was the shot of her staring at the Red Keep, I thought for sure she was going to go straight to it to deal with Cersei and that would have been in character and in line with her previous actions but for her to take a 20 minute detour to kill thousands of civilians just doesn't make sense.

Yeah, and they could have even done something like having the Lanister army blend into the crowd, holding them hostage while threatening to blow up part of Dany's army using wildfire explosives, or a hidden Scorpion aimed at Drogon, etc.
If Dany made the decision there to take out the Lanister army + the civilians, that would have been a ruthless choice, and maybe a first step into the character she turned into here, but it would have made a lot more sense than what actually happened.

Her insistence on targeting the civilians as if they're more of an enemy than Cercei made the whole thing make even less sense.

Last edited by Hiku - on 15 May 2019

Hiku said:
KiigelHeart said:

One of the better episodes of the season. I have no idea why people think Dany's snapping was too sudden. It's been hinted and her character developed to it for many seasons.

Not that she would kill innocent people.
She had killed enemies, and traitors who refused to yield. There's a long way between that and focusing on melting innocent women and children while giving Cercei (the real enemy) time to escape. 

Foreshadowing is not the same as having a proper and satisfying conclusion.

Well I disagree, during this season and the episode she started to see all of Westeros as her enemies. She was threatened and felt betrayed by everyone, she even said she chooses fear. She was also hungry for power and wanted everyone bow down to her. She was ready to burn the place down if Cercei didn't surrender and Cercei didn't. It didn't matter to her anymore when the bells were ringing, Cercei didn't bow down but killed yet another of her friends. 

Her going straight to Cercei would not have been in line with her character anymore. Maybe a season ago before her arriving at Westeros but not anymore.



Hiku said:

Yeah, and they could have even done something like having the Lanister army blend into the crowd, holding them hostage while threatening to blow up part of Dany's army using wildfire explosives, or a hidden Scorpion aimed at Drogon, etc.
If Dany made the decision there to take out the Lanister army + the civilians, that would have been a ruthless choice, and maybe a first step into the character she turned into here, but it would have made a lot more sense than what actually happened.

Her insistence on targeting the civilians as if they're more of an enemy than Cercei made the whole thing make even less sense.

Nah, that would be what every other ruthless and calculating leader would have done. The thing is, Dany was never build to be calculating. Her character has been very different from others who wanted the throne. 



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KiigelHeart said:
Hiku said:

Not that she would kill innocent people.
She had killed enemies, and traitors who refused to yield. There's a long way between that and focusing on melting innocent women and children while giving Cercei (the real enemy) time to escape. 

Foreshadowing is not the same as having a proper and satisfying conclusion.

Well I disagree, during this season and the episode she started to see all of Westeros as her enemies. She was threatened and felt betrayed by everyone, she even said she chooses fear. She was also hungry for power and wanted everyone bow down to her. She was ready to burn the place down if Cercei didn't surrender and Cercei didn't. It didn't matter to her anymore when the bells were ringing, Cercei didn't bow down but killed yet another of her friends. 

Her going straight to Cercei would not have been in line with her character anymore. Maybe a season ago before her arriving at Westeros but not anymore.

She didn't see all of Westeros as enemies. She said they don't show her the same love they show Jon, or the love the people overseas showed her.
That's very different from enemies she needs to kill. You don't kill everyone who doesn't show you love.

And Dany saved the seven kingdoms from the Whitewalkers. Why wouldn't she be loved by them?
Cercei could have combated that information, but once she is removed, that's no longer a problem. Everyone, including Jon, would have shouted from the rooftops how they couldn't have won without Dany and the sacrifices she made to fight a war that wasn't hers to begin with. Which by the way isn't true, because it would have been her problem eventually, but the show writers didn't think about that when they tried to pass that off as a plausible reasoning when Dany said that to Sansa. "I came here fighting a war that wasn't mine because I love your brother. So who really manipulated who?"
But even considering Dan & David's illogical writing, she would have been loved by the seven kingdoms. That she only has fear is nonsense.

But even disregarding that, people were already scared from what her army and dragon accomplished. Not a single civilian tried to object. Even the Lanister army whose duty it is to fight to the end, were too afraid to resist, and threw down their arms.
So no, she didn't have to do that to instill fear. And even if we ignore all that, they were still innocent civilians that she should not have wanted to kill, no matter what Cercei did.

The show writers even went out of their way to explain to us the difference between her ruthlessness towards her enemies and the Mad King, just last season.



What she did was not believable, because there should be a curve to her descent, and to the point where she becomes the ultimate extreme that targets and kills innocent people. But she went from a person that could still have been a good ruler for the people, to the exact opposite, in the span of one moment.
Even the Mad King had a reason for trying to kill the civilians. He thought that would transform him into a dragon. But at that point it had already been long established that he enjoyed hurting others, and that he was insane.
Dany, a character built up for 8 seasons, became the Mad Queen in an underdeveloped and unconvincing way.

If Sansa had stabbed all the women and children in the Bolton camp after they won the war, saying that "she just snapped" because she saw her former love behead her father, was held hostage, forced to marry the imp, handed off to the man that murdered her mother and brother, raped, tortured and betrayed, etc, is not a proper reason for why she'd go after innocent civilians, without a proper set up.

Even Anakin was built up gradually. What he did in Episode 3 was not the first time we saw him do that. And what he stood to gain from those actions in Episode 3 made sense for the character. Everyone was already scared of Dany's dragon. Choosing to become the worst monster in Westeros' history and give Cercei time to escape just so she can focus on burning more civilians does not make sense.

I can also get into how the way Varys handled the situation didn't make sense either. Or Tyrion ratting him out for committing treason, while he himself committed treason just moments later. The 3/3 perfect clean hits on Viserion that came from invisible ships that couldn't be seen from far up in the sky and arrows that bent around rocks from Scorpions manned by Hawkeye, and then nothing ever hits Drogon after that even though they fire way more arrows and he's way closer. The writers explained that by Dany "forgetting about the Iron Fleet" which is among the dumbest reasons I've ever heard. Even if Theon hadn't just remind her of them two episodes ago.
The Night King was nothing more than another mass threat of death that we had plenty of already, except he killed less important characters than Joffrey. And there clearly was more to him than that because he went to Bran personally and took his sweet time to kill him, smirked at Dany, etc. And Jaime went straight back to "you and I are all that matters."

Not much in this season makes sense, or has been a satisfactory conclusion to the character arcs we've been following for the past 8 years.
Even though one of these writers are responsible for X-Men Origins: Wolverine, I still can't believe how bad the writing has been. I'm still shocked.
I already thought it was getting bad a few seasons ago, but it was forgivable at that point because there could still have been a satisfying payoff in the end.

I think Mad Queen Dany is an interesting concept that could have been handled well. But they didn't even try. Just like with the Night King. They seem more focused on "subverting expectations", and moving on as quickly as possible to Star Wars.
Supposedly HBO offered them more episodes, which makes sense given what a gigantic cash cow GOT is for them, but Dan & David wanted to wrap it up in 6 episodes. They don't care, and the Starbucks cup exemplifies this, as you're supposed to do several takes in an A-list film production like this (Actors from other high budget films have weighed in on this process). And somehow it got through not only that but the editors as well.

And I suggest you take a look at how Emilia Clarke herself reacted to how her character turned out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA7UQOYskas&feature=youtu.be

It's in the first few seconds of the clip. "Best season ever" and Grayworm bursts out laughing, and Nathalie Emmanuel echos the sarcastic 'it's the best season ever'. That would never have happened a few seasons ago.
Peter Dinklage also makes fun of how stupid Tyrion became in the last few seasons. And while he only expresses it with his face in the clip, yersterday Varys' actor voiced his deep disappointment with how his character turned out. https://decider.com/2019/05/14/game-of-thrones-varys-actors-upset-ending/

The actors themselves mocking the writing like that, before it has even concluded, I can't remember if I've ever seen something like that before for something this big.
And considering how fans are reacting similarly, I'm sure we can expect even more of the actors to voice their concerns after the final episode airs.

I read the spoilers for the last episode, and I think even fans who don't care much about the writing but just want to be entertained are going to have issues with that one.

Last edited by Hiku - on 15 May 2019

KiigelHeart said:
Hiku said:

Yeah, and they could have even done something like having the Lanister army blend into the crowd, holding them hostage while threatening to blow up part of Dany's army using wildfire explosives, or a hidden Scorpion aimed at Drogon, etc.
If Dany made the decision there to take out the Lanister army + the civilians, that would have been a ruthless choice, and maybe a first step into the character she turned into here, but it would have made a lot more sense than what actually happened.

Her insistence on targeting the civilians as if they're more of an enemy than Cercei made the whole thing make even less sense.

Nah, that would be what every other ruthless and calculating leader would have done. The thing is, Dany was never build to be calculating. Her character has been very different from others who wanted the throne. 

The way she takes the cities in Slaver's Bay does show she's a calculating (and ruthless) leader. She blindsides the Slave Masters of Astapor, tricks the military leaders of Yunkai leading to an easy victory and for Meereen she not only doesn't execute the men who she's just learned have betrayed her but uses them in a mission that allow her to take the city.



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KiigelHeart said:
Hiku said:

Not that she would kill innocent people.
She had killed enemies, and traitors who refused to yield. There's a long way between that and focusing on melting innocent women and children while giving Cercei (the real enemy) time to escape. 

Foreshadowing is not the same as having a proper and satisfying conclusion.

Well I disagree, during this season and the episode she started to see all of Westeros as her enemies. She was threatened and felt betrayed by everyone, she even said she chooses fear. She was also hungry for power and wanted everyone bow down to her. She was ready to burn the place down if Cercei didn't surrender and Cercei didn't. It didn't matter to her anymore when the bells were ringing, Cercei didn't bow down but killed yet another of her friends. 

Her going straight to Cercei would not have been in line with her character anymore. Maybe a season ago before her arriving at Westeros but not anymore.

She chooses fear and wanted everyone to bow down to her. But then she killed everyone, so no one is left to fear her or to bow down. Stupidest move ever.

She wants, since the beginning, to be Queen. She wants to rule. For that, you need people and a kingdom to rule. If you destroy everything and kill everyone, then you're not a Queen or King, just a murderer. Huge difference between "killing and being ruthless to become what she wanted" and "killing and destroying what she always wanted because her nephew wasn't in the mood last night". And of course, let's not forget that she completely ignores her enemy, letting Cersei escape (or the possibility to escape at least), because it's obviously more important to kill innocent kids in the street for 30 minutes. The writers butchered her character development and this whole sequence was embarrassing. If they really wanted to make her a Mad Queen, they should have added 2 or 3 episodes to show how she would evolve like this. Oh, and they should also have learned to write a story, or hire an other writer (a competent one) to write that part. They just don't have the skill for anything deeper than dumb butchery.

EDIT: She could even try to kill Jon, it would have been a lot smarter and more logical than what they made her do.



I'm on phone so no quotes, sorry.

No one left to fear her? It's just a one city after all. Doesn't Westeros have like many kingdoms? Now there's definitely reason to fear her. For a moment her dragons looked vulnerable.

And yes I still say she sees enemies everywhere. Obviously she won't tell Jon, the rightful heir, that. Her options were pretty much to accept the surrender which would likely lead Jon taking the throne or choose the fear and become a tyrant. Of course I don't think she had a clear plan, she hasn't had one for a while. She's been portrayed to be driven by the hunger for power and anger for a good while.

She executed Varys without emotion. Tyrion plead her to stop the attack if she heard the bells but you could tell she wouldn't accept it. And Robert Baratheon said the world would burn if Dany came to Westeros :P There was no need for her to go full HEERE'S JOHNNY at any point, we've seen her slowly descenting into madness.

There's plenty of other poorly written plotlines or retconning in latest seasons and yeah everything feels a bit rushed. This one was fine though. Predictable, but fine.

edit. Oh and that Sansa example is a bad one. Completely different characters. There's a reason why so many viewers including myself have been thinking Dany is being corrupted by power and going mad for many seasons. Nobody expects anything like this from Sansa. 

Last edited by KiigelHeart - on 15 May 2019

Faelco said:
KiigelHeart said:

Well I disagree, during this season and the episode she started to see all of Westeros as her enemies. She was threatened and felt betrayed by everyone, she even said she chooses fear. She was also hungry for power and wanted everyone bow down to her. She was ready to burn the place down if Cercei didn't surrender and Cercei didn't. It didn't matter to her anymore when the bells were ringing, Cercei didn't bow down but killed yet another of her friends. 

Her going straight to Cercei would not have been in line with her character anymore. Maybe a season ago before her arriving at Westeros but not anymore.

She chooses fear and wanted everyone to bow down to her. But then she killed everyone, so no one is left to fear her or to bow down. Stupidest move ever.

She wants, since the beginning, to be Queen. She wants to rule. For that, you need people and a kingdom to rule. If you destroy everything and kill everyone, then you're not a Queen or King, just a murderer. Huge difference between "killing and being ruthless to become what she wanted" and "killing and destroying what she always wanted because her nephew wasn't in the mood last night". And of course, let's not forget that she completely ignores her enemy, letting Cersei escape (or the possibility to escape at least), because it's obviously more important to kill innocent kids in the street for 30 minutes. The writers butchered her character development and this whole sequence was embarrassing. If they really wanted to make her a Mad Queen, they should have added 2 or 3 episodes to show how she would evolve like this. Oh, and they should also have learned to write a story, or hire an other writer (a competent one) to write that part. They just don't have the skill for anything deeper than dumb butchery.

EDIT: She could even try to kill Jon, it would have been a lot smarter and more logical than what they made her do.

She chose fear by attacking King's Landing, but at no point did I get the impression this was Dany at her most calculating. This was pure unadulterated rage and anger over events since coming to Westeros so "stupidest move ever" actually fits the bill for what was happening and is still completely in keeping with her character arc.

I really don't see how anyone can complain when her character has been developing up to this point for 8 seasons. She's always shown signs of brutality and a general lack of empathy but always has someone to calm her darker impulses and fuel her narcissism.