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I never understood why people want luke to be a "Mary Sue". Even at the height of his powers on the og trilogy, he got immediately captured, shot in the robo-hand, captured by ewoks, crashed his speeder bike, wrecked by the emperor. There was never a time when I wasn't worried about him--which was a good thing.

Saving Han was a team effort. Taking out the sheild generator was a team effort. Taking out the Death Star was a team effort. Taking on Vader was a solo effort and Luke almost totally fucked it up and had to be saved by Vader.

Luke needed his friends. Rey doesn't need anyone. She never does.

Last edited by d21lewis - on 15 April 2019

Twitter: @d21lewis  --I'll add you if you add me!!

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Luke was written as an apprentice becoming a samurai.

Rey is written as a superheroine discovering her innate power.

Nothing wrong with either of those approaches. The problem arises because for 6+ movies, we have been told that Jedi function like samurai, and then Rey comes and functions as a superheroine.



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d21lewis said:

I never understood why people want luke to be a "Mary Sue". Even at the height of his powers on the og trilogy, he got immediately captured, shot in the robo-hand, captured by ewoks, crashed his speeder bike, wrecked by the emperor. There was never a time when I wasn't worried about him--which was a good thing.

Saving Han was a team effort. Taking out the sheild generator was a team effort. Taking out the Death Star was a team effort. Taking on Vader was a solo effort and Luke almost totally fucked it up and had to be saved by Vader.

Luke needed his friends. Rey doesn't need anyone. She never does.

Literally Rey's entire purpose in life is finding her identity and who she belongs with...



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starcraft said:
d21lewis said:

I never understood why people want luke to be a "Mary Sue". Even at the height of his powers on the og trilogy, he got immediately captured, shot in the robo-hand, captured by ewoks, crashed his speeder bike, wrecked by the emperor. There was never a time when I wasn't worried about him--which was a good thing.

Saving Han was a team effort. Taking out the sheild generator was a team effort. Taking out the Death Star was a team effort. Taking on Vader was a solo effort and Luke almost totally fucked it up and had to be saved by Vader.

Luke needed his friends. Rey doesn't need anyone. She never does.

Literally Rey's entire purpose in life is finding her identity and who she belongs with...

At least she's beloved and adored by everyone she meets, though. Even the villains. I know, she was trying to find out what happened to her parents but she is able to overcome most anything thrown her way on her own or she's the one saving everyone else. She's super capable. Unrelateably so.



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d21lewis said:
starcraft said:

Literally Rey's entire purpose in life is finding her identity and who she belongs with...

At least she's beloved and adored by everyone she meets, though. Even the villains. I know, she was trying to find out what happened to her parents but she is able to overcome most anything thrown her way on her own or she's the one saving everyone else. She's super capable. Unrelateably so.

To form that view you've got to already believe she is nothing but a Mary Sue though.

They are, overwhelmingly, logical progressions. She is a junker that fixes things. As such, it makes total sense she can fix the compressor in the falcon, which is why Han and Chewy like her. Leia likes her because Han likes her and because she has a connection with her through the force.

Finn clearly likes her because she is attractive and she helped save him.

Snoke and Kylo viewed her as an opportunity, very analogous of Vader and the Emperor with Luke. Kylo then repeatedly tries to kill her, at least once on Snoke's orders.

Then there is all the people that didn't like her. Luke, Unkar Plutt, any number of stormtroopers. Hell even Han before she fixed things.

Then there is the isolation of her character when applying this issue (though I note you haven't done this, so I am not pointing fingers at you). Finn is almost immediately and fanatically liked by other main characters. Han had good reasons to openly dislike him, and yet they had charming banter within 10 minutes. Poe, Rose, all hugs and love and kisses.

I've seen people cite a young Luke being annoying as a reason why he wasn't instantly liked. Hilariously, as a highly annoying character, it was all the more extraordinary just how quickly people did like him (Ben, Han, Leia, Lando, every-droid that ever was, etc).



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starcraft said:
d21lewis said:

I never understood why people want luke to be a "Mary Sue". Even at the height of his powers on the og trilogy, he got immediately captured, shot in the robo-hand, captured by ewoks, crashed his speeder bike, wrecked by the emperor. There was never a time when I wasn't worried about him--which was a good thing.

Saving Han was a team effort. Taking out the sheild generator was a team effort. Taking out the Death Star was a team effort. Taking on Vader was a solo effort and Luke almost totally fucked it up and had to be saved by Vader.

Luke needed his friends. Rey doesn't need anyone. She never does.

Literally Rey's entire purpose in life is finding her identity and who she belongs with...

Sure but would it hurt to have her bleed? Give her opposition a semblance of threat level? Maybe we could have her rely on her teammates a little more? Have her teammates save her life like Luke was saved by Obi-Wan, C3PO/R2D2, and Han?

I want to feel as though our hero or heroine is truly in danger and only Luke convinces me of that. Rey not so much.



KLAMarine said:
starcraft said:

Literally Rey's entire purpose in life is finding her identity and who she belongs with...

Sure but would it hurt to have her bleed? Give her opposition a semblance of threat level? Maybe we could have her rely on her teammates a little more? Have her teammates save her life like Luke was saved by Obi-Wan, C3PO/R2D2, and Han?

I want to feel as though our hero or heroine is truly in danger and only Luke convinces me of that. Rey not so much.

You're describing the scene where Ren captures her in the forest outside Maz's castle. Also when the team of Han, Finn and Chewy saved her twice on Starkiller base (One could argue she got herself out of containment, there was no indication she had any clue what to do next and was certainly happy to see them. She was absolutely fucked in that forest after defeating Kylo if her friends hadn't picked her up).

In the second film Luke had to pull her out of the dark side during her training, and the second time she succumbed to it all the convincing in the world didn't stop her falling prey to Snoke's trickery and running to see him. Where she again got her ass handed to her, and had to be saved by Kylo, who she then failed to defeat.

Quick learner? Absolutely. Highly skilled? Sure. Powerful in the Force? Definitely.

Mary Sue? No.

Hell, even say she is, using that as a proxy to say that these are shit movies, financial follies or despised by the general SW fanbase as a few people are doing is an absolute boondoggle.



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starcraft said:
KLAMarine said:

Sure but would it hurt to have her bleed? Give her opposition a semblance of threat level? Maybe we could have her rely on her teammates a little more? Have her teammates save her life like Luke was saved by Obi-Wan, C3PO/R2D2, and Han?

I want to feel as though our hero or heroine is truly in danger and only Luke convinces me of that. Rey not so much.

You're describing the scene where Ren captures her in the forest outside Maz's castle. Also when the team of Han, Finn and Chewy saved her twice on Starkiller base (One could argue she got herself out of containment, there was no indication she had any clue what to do next and was certainly happy to see them. She was absolutely fucked in that forest after defeating Kylo if her friends hadn't picked her up).

In the second film Luke had to pull her out of the dark side during her training, and the second time she succumbed to it all the convincing in the world didn't stop her falling prey to Snoke's trickery and running to see him. Where she again got her ass handed to her, and had to be saved by Kylo, who she then failed to defeat.

Quick learner? Absolutely. Highly skilled? Sure. Powerful in the Force? Definitely.

Mary Sue? No.

Hell, even say she is, using that as a proxy to say that these are shit movies, financial follies or despised by the general SW fanbase as a few people are doing is an absolute boondoggle.

My only issue with Rey is how she was able to defeat Kylo literally days after she learned about the force. I don't know if that makes her a Mary Sue or not (as I really don't understand much that term anyways) but after that I haven't been able to take her character serious. I mean, is like watching Ezra Bridger defeating the Inquisitor in their first battle. Or Ahsoka Tano defeating Count Dooku or General Grievous in the first episode she appeared in (heck, that sounds ridiculous to even say it).



starcraft said:
KLAMarine said:

Sure but would it hurt to have her bleed? Give her opposition a semblance of threat level? Maybe we could have her rely on her teammates a little more? Have her teammates save her life like Luke was saved by Obi-Wan, C3PO/R2D2, and Han?

I want to feel as though our hero or heroine is truly in danger and only Luke convinces me of that. Rey not so much.

You're describing the scene where Ren captures her in the forest outside Maz's castle. Also when the team of Han, Finn and Chewy saved her twice on Starkiller base (One could argue she got herself out of containment, there was no indication she had any clue what to do next and was certainly happy to see them. She was absolutely fucked in that forest after defeating Kylo if her friends hadn't picked her up).

In the second film Luke had to pull her out of the dark side during her training, and the second time she succumbed to it all the convincing in the world didn't stop her falling prey to Snoke's trickery and running to see him. Where she again got her ass handed to her, and had to be saved by Kylo, who she then failed to defeat.

Quick learner? Absolutely. Highly skilled? Sure. Powerful in the Force? Definitely.

Mary Sue? No.

Hell, even say she is, using that as a proxy to say that these are shit movies, financial follies or despised by the general SW fanbase as a few people are doing is an absolute boondoggle.

Okay, let's make this simple: I wanna see Rey bleed. I wanna see her decapitated similar to how Luke was and Anakin was. Make her opposition more threatening in TFA, I appreciate Snoke getting the better of her in TLJ but in TFA, a lot of what she faces she gets out of a little too easy. Allow Han and Finn and Chewie rescue her from Ren's imprisonment: no mind trick.

Also, please allow Han to handle HIS Millennium Falcon; it's HIS Falcon. No need to have Rey show him up. It's a real shame Rey couldn't get a ship all her own that was distinctly hers, one I could call "Rey's ship and no one else's". Instead, she gets the Falcon which is just about tied to Han permanently.

Last edited by KLAMarine - on 16 April 2019

KLAMarine said:

Okay, let's make this simple: I wanna see Rey bleed. I wanna see her decapitated similar to how Luke was and Anakin was. Make her opposition more threatening in TFA, I appreciate Snoke getting the better of her but in TFA, a lot of what she faces she gets out of a little too easy.

Also, please allow Han to handle HIS Millenium Falcon; it's HIS Falcon. No need to have Rey show him up.

All personal preference, and totally fair enough! Hopefully you get to see some of that in TRoS!

Well, except the Falcon, hard to imagine Han handling the Falcon in the next movie...



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