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"Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker" Trailer

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zorg1000 said:
chakkra said:

I'm not sure I'm following you...

He said: "even The Last Jedi, which I feel got a lot of undeserved hate from a vocal minority..."

I just took that as if he thinks that only a vocal minority disliked the movie. Which is exactly what I said when I said: "But trying to say that it was just a "vocal minority" who didn't like this movie is... just... no."

I might be wrong and that is not what he actually meant. But at no point did he (nor ME) said anything about the validity of the criticisms.

Yes, he said it got undeserved hate from a vocal minority but he never said everybody who hates/dislikes it belongs to the vocal minority. That's just an assumption you made.

Okay then.  Thanks for the input.



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I will pass. Will watch on streaming or whatever.
TLJ absolutely destroyed the universe for me. This movie will be more of an attempt to clean up the mess ryan johnson created.
I trust JJ writing but I dont think he will be able to create a good ending to it.
And God, Ray is terrible. Liked her in the first movie but she went full mary sue on steroids in TLJ.



I'm sure there are plenty of people who are excited for it, but I can wait to see it later. It's very obvious that they're just playing script mad libs at this point, and as far as i'm concerned this entire journey was a waste because the skywalker saga already concluded in return of the jedi, which if these last 2 movies are any indication, is a way better movie.



Immersiveunreality said:
haxxiy said:
Rey might be Mary Sue-ish but that alone isn't a deal breaker to me. Lots of successful pop-culture series have had protagonists with flat character arches (Son Goku comes to mind, Aragorn perhaps as well).

I agree with Aragorn yes but Son Goku had so much training to endure to become so strong although in Super he is kinda flat indeed.

She should've her arm chopped off or an eye burned, or something, to show that no, she isn't up there and has paid dearly for her weakness. George Lucas at least knew in both trilogies the "reality ensues" implications of messing around with lightsabers and powerful foes.



 

 

 

 

 

starcraft said:
I am really excited for this, and have massive regret that I wasted time reading the toxic comments.

Rey has proven to be a great character so far - well written and well acted. Star Wars has always allowed force-capable characters to become powerful very quickly. People bitching and whinging about Mary-Sue concerns must never have liked Star Wars, given Luke Skywalker was the biggest Mary-Sue of all.

*received a couple of hours of spiritual guidance in a jungle*

*crushes all enemies*

I'll give you well acted, but a definite no on the well written.  No Mary Sue is a well written character.  And you obviously didn't watch the OG trilogy if you think Luke crushes all enemies after his training, which took days, not hours.  He gets his ass handed to him by Darth Vader after his training.  Vader even cuts off his hand.  And even after years of training off screen, he gets his ass handed to him by the Emperor and must be saved by his father.  What does Rey do the second she gets her hands on a lightsaber?  Defeats Kylo in not only dueling, but also using the Force to grab said lightsaber, even though he has had a decade or more of training in dueling and using the Force.

This is the problem I have with these new movies, aside from the poor writing.  "Fans" of the OG trilogy shitting all over it to feebly try to find some excuse to defend the new ones.  Rey is a Mary Sue, Luke is not.

zorg1000 said:
chakkra said:

I'm not sure I'm following you...

He said: "even The Last Jedi, which I feel got a lot of undeserved hate from a vocal minority..."

I just took that as if he thinks that only a vocal minority disliked the movie. Which is exactly what I said when I said: "But trying to say that it was just a "vocal minority" who didn't like this movie is... just... no."

I might be wrong and that is not what he actually meant. But at no point did he (nor ME) said anything about the validity of the criticisms.

Yes, he said it got undeserved hate from a vocal minority but he never said everybody who hates/dislikes it belongs to the vocal minority. That's just an assumption you made.

Unfortunately, I think he feels that all of those "haters" who have legit criticism of the film are classified as undeserved hate.  At least that's the feeling I got from debating him in my thread on TLJ.

Hiku said:

Well I brought up Luke, and the other things to highlight that the film had a lot of other problems. Many that cannot be fixed or explained away, that it's impossible to pinpoint any one particular reason for why they're for example bribing back Palpatine, unless there's some direct correlation.
Snoke being handled the way he was is a plausible reason for why they may be going that route since there's a correlation there, but with how much of a mess that film was, you never know.

As for Rey, there's a theory that she may be Palpatine's daughter, so the revelation of Palpatine's involvement in the teaser is interesting.
It could even be that she has his soul inside of her. Either of those things may shed some light on her power. But regarding her fight with Kylo Ren, what is the second fight you're refering to? Do you mean when they both tried to get the lightsaber after Snoke's death? That seemed to end in a tie, as it split in half. During the first fight, to be fair, Kylo was a very conflicted character. He's not outright evil, and doesn't execute officers who bring him bad news. When he fought Finn he was toying with him (as he didn't strike him when he fell, but turned around and let Finn get up again) which lead to even Finn landing a hit on Kylo's shoulder. This inner conflict that Kylo had probably affected his performance against Rey as well, although I don't think Rey having more natural talent and a clear focus should allow her to keep up with Kylo when it comes to swordplay. Though we'll see if Abrams plans to explain that. I'm not holding my breath though.
My original theory was that she was one of Luke's students, which would explain the vision (memory?) she had of Kylo showing up to destroy Luke's students. And that she for some reason had forgot. But then TLJ came out, and that was apparently not the case.

Yeah, the chase scene was another thing I had an issue with. Albeit one of the lesser issues I had because it pertains to physics.
The ships were already going at maximum speed, but they worried about running out of fuel. Except in space, they wouldn't slow down if they run out of fuel because there's no gravity. They'd keep going at the same speed until they somehow hit the breaks, or collide with something.

And yeah, I also thought of what Rose may think of Holdo's sacrifice. She was also an elderly character, like Luke. The message of the film seems to be that it's ok for them to sacrifice themselves. But not the young ones. Stop them from doing it, even if it means probable/certain death for the resistance.

Oh and the new Boba Fett, she didn't do much more than falling through a floor.
And the most powerful Jedi in history made a re-appearance after over 30 years. And fans waited that long to see him go out without demonstrating any of his combat abilities, except for a simple projection trick. He didn't even swing his saber.
In fact, if I recall correctly, there were no lightsaber clashes in the film, unless you count those weapons that Snoke's guards had.

They may try to redeem Snoke and say he faked his death. But the problem is I don't think they have time to develop and establish him as an interesting villain in the span of one film now. So that's another reason why I prefer Palpatine.

Oh and I thought it was weird how Kylo revealed who Rey's parents were. I understand wanting to know who your parents are and why they abandoned you. But he presented it in a way that made it seem as if she was hoping they would be Skywalkers, or from some special lineage. Which made it feel like he was talking to the audience more than Rey. "They have no place in this story."
As if Rian Johnson was addressing everyone in the audience who had their own theories about her lineage. Trying to make the point that 'not every Star Wars main character has to come from a special lineage'. Which is kind of a weird point to make regarding her, since she's clearly special anyway. 
I never cared too much about who her parents were, and I was fine with them being nobody. But I thought that scene was odd.

Personally, I'm not accepting any explanation for her power level, now.  Not when it comes off as an obvious retcon.  It also will never explain away how she got so powerful without going through training.  Nothing explains that.

As for Kylo, my problem is people are just reaching for excuses for why he could have been beaten.  The problem is they are just that, excuses.  Not legit reasons.  Now, we could say it was because he was injured, only the movie showed he was moving and fighting perfectly fine dispite that.  We could say it is because he is unbalanced or conflicted, but, again, the movie doesn't even hint at this.  He just got done killing his father and was supposed to have killed off his good side.  Sure, that may not have worked and he may not be exactly trying to kill her, but neither is he trying to lose the fight.  She isn't trying to kill him, either.  In the end, there is no legit reason he should have lost that battle.  Not how the film presented it.  She just got a lightsaber in her hand and became a master duelist within seconds.  Just like she became a master shot after having a blaster for a matter of seconds.

And the 2nd fight is referring to trying to grab the lightsaber.  It is a battle in the Force, something that, again, she should have had not shot of winning when she has had no training in it.  Of course, she still wins.  Sure, the lightsaber explodes.  However, Kylo is knocked out for half an hour, but she gets up immediately and is fine.  I count that as a win for her.

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 14 April 2019

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One of my favorite TLJ videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXNc-5X6xpw



KLAMarine said:
starcraft said:
I am really excited for this, and have massive regret that I wasted time reading the toxic comments.

Rey has proven to be a great character so far - well written and well acted. Star Wars has always allowed force-capable characters to become powerful very quickly. People bitching and whinging about Mary-Sue concerns must never have liked Star Wars, given Luke Skywalker was the biggest Mary-Sue of all.

*received a couple of hours of spiritual guidance in a jungle*

*crushes all enemies*

...No.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't create this ridiculous graphic.

It remains unclear how much training each of Luke and Rey received, but empirically the evidence we have suggests Rey received more instruction from Luke than Luke received from Yoda. Yoda himself appeared to state that Rey's training was sufficient.

Rey's knowledge, thus far, of mind probing and telekinesis pale's in comparison to Luke's in RotJ. She successfully tricked one stormtropper after initially failing. Luke was capable of mind tricking anyone except a Hutt or another force wielder.

Rey proved incapable of easily repelling the dark side in the cave, her initial efforts to adopt telekinesis failed, she was manipulated easily and obviously by Snoke at great distances. Indeed, only Kylo demonstrated any ability to deceive or defeat Snoke.

Rey was left alone as a child on a desert planet full of slavers. She survived as an athletic scavenger as a lone, young girl in that environment. If 'competent pilot from flying and and shooting his T-16 counts' then Rey's experiences should too. We have no knowledge of whether she'd flown previously, but its strongly suggested she had. As a force user, she picked up the quirks of the Falcon quickly, like every other jedi in the Galaxy.

TL:DR This totallist argument that Rey is a Mary Sue, somehow distinct from Luke, requires lists like the above to be reasonable. Clearly they can be picked apart ad nausuem. One reason so much of this hate seems to be motivated by something other than a genuine attempt to engage with the franchise is this clear refusal to acknowledge any information that conflicts with a pre-determined view of Disney's Star Wars films.

Don't like the latest movies? Thats your right. By the only two metrics available to us (reviews and box office receipts), you're in a very loud, small minority.



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

starcraft said:
KLAMarine said:

...No.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't create this ridiculous graphic.

It remains unclear how much training each of Luke and Rey received, but empirically the evidence we have suggests Rey received more instruction from Luke than Luke received from Yoda. Yoda himself appeared to state that Rey's training was sufficient.

Rey's knowledge, thus far, of mind probing and telekinesis pale's in comparison to Luke's in RotJ. She successfully tricked one stormtropper after initially failing. Luke was capable of mind tricking anyone except a Hutt or another force wielder.

Rey proved incapable of easily repelling the dark side in the cave, her initial efforts to adopt telekinesis failed, she was manipulated easily and obviously by Snoke at great distances. Indeed, only Kylo demonstrated any ability to deceive or defeat Snoke.

Rey was left alone as a child on a desert planet full of slavers. She survived as an athletic scavenger as a lone, young girl in that environment. If 'competent pilot from flying and and shooting his T-16 counts' then Rey's experiences should too. We have no knowledge of whether she'd flown previously, but its strongly suggested she had. As a force user, she picked up the quirks of the Falcon quickly, like every other jedi in the Galaxy.

TL:DR This totallist argument that Rey is a Mary Sue, somehow distinct from Luke, requires lists like the above to be reasonable. Clearly they can be picked apart ad nausuem. One reason so much of this hate seems to be motivated by something other than a genuine attempt to engage with the franchise is this clear refusal to acknowledge any information that conflicts with a pre-determined view of Disney's Star Wars films.

Don't like the latest movies? Thats your right. By the only two metrics available to us (reviews and box office receipts), you're in a very loud, small minority.

"It remains unclear how much training each of Luke and Rey received, but empirically the evidence we have suggests Rey received more instruction from Luke than Luke received from Yoda. Yoda himself appeared to state that Rey's training was sufficient."

>What evidence do we have?

"Rey's knowledge, thus far, of mind probing and telekinesis pale's in comparison to Luke's in RotJ. She successfully tricked one stormtropper after initially failing. Luke was capable of mind tricking anyone except a Hutt or another force wielder."

>Luke's mind probing happened in episode six, his third movie. Rey's mind probing happened in episode seven, her first movie.

See how they're not comparable? Rey's awfully quick.

"Rey proved incapable of easily repelling the dark side in the cave, her initial efforts to adopt telekinesis failed, she was manipulated easily and obviously by Snoke at great distances. Indeed, only Kylo demonstrated any ability to deceive or defeat Snoke."

>She's not as bad in TLJ as she is in TFA, I'll give her that.

"Rey was left alone as a child on a desert planet full of slavers. She survived as an athletic scavenger as a lone, young girl in that environment. If 'competent pilot from flying and and shooting his T-16 counts' then Rey's experiences should too. We have no knowledge of whether she'd flown previously, but its strongly suggested she had. As a force user, she picked up the quirks of the Falcon quickly, like every other jedi in the Galaxy."

>These explanations are nice and all but at the end of the day, she's still hyper-competent to the detriment of the film's tension or sense of danger. I'm trying to recall any instance in TFA wherein she was saved by someone else and I cannot come up with anything. Luke needed other people to come to his aid in his first movie, Rey saves herself in her first film.

TL:DR This totallist argument that Rey is a Mary Sue, somehow distinct from Luke, requires lists like the above to be reasonable. Clearly they can be picked apart ad nausuem. One reason so much of this hate seems to be motivated by something other than a genuine attempt to engage with the franchise is this clear refusal to acknowledge any information that conflicts with a pre-determined view of Disney's Star Wars films.

Don't like the latest movies? Thats your right. By the only two metrics available to us (reviews and box office receipts), you're in a very loud, small minority."

User reviews don't seem to look kindly to TLJ. Over half of 200k ratings disliked TLJ.

And a ticket purchase doesn't mean someone liked the film. Plenty of YouTube videos with people who paid to see the films hating on the new films.



It's a Star Wars movie.

I really really hate the title though. Pretty sure there have already been multiple Skywalkers rising, you can't just name a movie that. That would be like calling multiple games in a series Final Fantasy.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

starcraft said:
KLAMarine said:

...No.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't create this ridiculous graphic.

It remains unclear how much training each of Luke and Rey received, but empirically the evidence we have suggests Rey received more instruction from Luke than Luke received from Yoda. Yoda himself appeared to state that Rey's training was sufficient.

Rey's knowledge, thus far, of mind probing and telekinesis pale's in comparison to Luke's in RotJ. She successfully tricked one stormtropper after initially failing. Luke was capable of mind tricking anyone except a Hutt or another force wielder.

Rey proved incapable of easily repelling the dark side in the cave, her initial efforts to adopt telekinesis failed, she was manipulated easily and obviously by Snoke at great distances. Indeed, only Kylo demonstrated any ability to deceive or defeat Snoke.

Rey was left alone as a child on a desert planet full of slavers. She survived as an athletic scavenger as a lone, young girl in that environment. If 'competent pilot from flying and and shooting his T-16 counts' then Rey's experiences should too. We have no knowledge of whether she'd flown previously, but its strongly suggested she had. As a force user, she picked up the quirks of the Falcon quickly, like every other jedi in the Galaxy.

TL:DR This totallist argument that Rey is a Mary Sue, somehow distinct from Luke, requires lists like the above to be reasonable. Clearly they can be picked apart ad nausuem. One reason so much of this hate seems to be motivated by something other than a genuine attempt to engage with the franchise is this clear refusal to acknowledge any information that conflicts with a pre-determined view of Disney's Star Wars films.

Don't like the latest movies? Thats your right. By the only two metrics available to us (reviews and box office receipts), you're in a very loud, small minority.

You only find it ridiculous because it completely destroys your narrative.  She is a Mary Sue.  

Evidence points that Rey received more training than Luke? Come on, man, that's just laughable. Luke was obviously there for days. We see several different lessons he goes through. What do we see of Rey's? Luke gives her one quick lesson and calls it quits, fearing her awesome Mary Sue power. The rest she learns herself apparently. We also have the years in between ROTJ and ESB where Luke has obviously gone through more training.

Also, Luke was actually trained to become a Jedi. Mind control would have been one of those lessons. He also at least witnessed Obi-Wan demonstrate it. Where did Rey even learn about that power? Oh, right, she pulled it out of her ass, because she was never taught that or even knew Jedi could do that. The script called for her to be able to do it, so she could. Hmm, MaRey Sue?

Yoda approving of her so quickly, without barely any training, even though she demonstrated a lack of patience, is even more evidence of her Mary Sue status. Luke also demonstrated that lack of patience, which Yoda disapproved of. He also said that his friends may need to perish so that he could train to be strong enough to take on Vader and the Emperor. Not Rey, though. Instant approval from Yoda. In fact, he seemingly destroys some sacred tree and the Jedi tomes, something he mocks, to illustrate that she has all she needs. Something past Yoda would have never done.

And I'll ask you the same question I asked another, what movie did watch? Didn't repel the Dark Side? She easily repelled the Dark Side like no one before her. Sure, she confronted it, but there was no corruption. She wasn't enticed by its power. She confronted it and easily repelled it. Hell, later when Kylo suggests they take a grey path, she isn't enticed by it. She refuses because that's not the 100% good thing to do.

The problem isn't that she picks things up quickly. It's that she does it too quickly to even be considered realistic within established lore. Anything she does takes her mere seconds/minutes to master. Even without any proper training or knowledge she can perform such tasks.

TL:DR 

You don't like the Mary Sue arguments because you know you have no real defense against them. It's so blatantly obvious, so instead of actually arguing against them, you just to label a beloved character as a Mary Sue, too. So, your defence isn't really that she's not one, just that Luke is one, too (even though he isn't), so we should just except everything she can do, regardless of how little sense it makes.

Also, I wouldn't point out the BO, because that actually favors us. TLJ was supposed to make $750M+ at the domestic box office, which would have been about $1.7B WW. And that was the "safe bet," with higher end of the range being $800M+ DBO and $1.8B+ WW.  Even after the huge drop in its second weekend, analysts still projected it to hit $1.6B WW. Instead, it made $620M DBO and $1.33B WW, underperforming the safe bet by almost $400M. Black Panther beat it. It had worst legs than Rogue One, a spin-off, in the last half of its release. It led to a big decrease in merch sales.  Sure, not a flop, but it greatly underperformed.