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Forums - Sports Discussion - 2019 NBA Postseason: The Toronto Raptors are NBA Champions!

NightlyPoe said:

Pinkie_pie said:

Its a combination of everything. Wilt playoff avg isnt comparable to jordan and of course championships. Bill stats isnt comparable to jordans and he played with more fellow hall of famers than any other superstar at the time(thats why wilt will always be ranked ahead of bill even though bill has more championships. Kareem has 1 more mvp and huge career stats because he played for 20 years to get those. He also played with 2 players that are top 20 ever. Jordan with pippen who i wouldnt rank in the top 50. Lebron carried 1 bad team to the finals and that was last year when he had no kyrie. The east has been weak thats why we see kawhi carried a toronto team to the finals in his 1st year in the east. Lebron fans like to argue that jordan could never taken the Cleveland team to the finals but we have no idea what jordan could have done with that team. Lebron had to join wade and bosh to be great. Their accomplishments arent comparable. Jordan has more mvps, finals mvp, defensive 1st team, dpoy all in less years. As for magic, bird and curry it shouldnt even be a debate, especially curry.

Longevity is a positive trait and should be factored in.  Particularly when there was no physical reason why Jordan retired.  We probably lost four prime years from Jordan's career because of his mental fragility.  We would have lost more if Chicago hadn't remained a championship level team (Jordan said he wouldn't have come back from his first retirement if Pippen had been traded for Kemp as had been proposed).  That is a definite negative and should be penalized.  The fact that Kareem and Lebron remained dominant players for so long isn't something to just brush off.  Jordan being unable to play without a deck stacked in his favor is not something to overlook.

Toronto's likely to win the championship, so let's put aside the idea that they only made it because the East is weak.  Especially if you're still insisting that the Warriors are as good as they were three years ago.  They're an excellent team with a lot of quality pieces beyond Kawhi, who is obviously a beast in his own right, and will be deserving champs if they win.

You also forget that Lebron dragged the Cavs to the Finals in 2007.

Like I said, if I had to start a team, I would take Bird and Curry over Jordan.  There's just so much more you can do because of what they bring to the table.  They were/are glitches in the system.  Jordan, particularly in the first half of his career was very much a singular sensation that left his teammates just watching him play.  It took Phil Jackson to figure out how to make Jordan work on a team.  I'm not sure how many other coaches could have figured out how to do that, but there aren't many.  I think that pretty much any coach could figure out how to make Curry, Bird, or Lebron work.  Heck, I've lost track of how many mediocre coaches Lebron's had.

I think i should stop after reading you would start a team with bird or curry over jordan. Thats the craziest stuff i read in a while. I would start a team with a guy whos best at scoring and defending over anyone



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NightlyPoe said:
Pinkie_pie said:

I think i should stop after reading you would start a team with bird or curry over jordan. Thats the craziest stuff i read in a while. I would start a team with a guy whos best at scoring and defending over anyone

That's probably because you're just repeating an argumentum ad populum and accolades as proofs.  I'm actually looking at what works in winning games. And I would contend that a disruptive presence on offense that lifts the whole team's efficiency to the point where they're basically playing on easy mode is worth more to a team than scoring and defense.  As such, I would find it easier to build a championship team around Bird, Curry, or James than I would Jordan's more straightforward offensive skills.

And if I were just limiting myself to individual efforts, I would take Chamberlain over Jordan as he's a better scorer, defender, and rebounder than Jordan.  And about on par as in terms of passing skills given their positions.

Easier to build a championship team around bird, curry or lebron yet they all only won 3 championship each compare to jordans 6. As soon as jordan had an all star player his team winning championships. Could have been 8 straight if he didnt retire during his prime when his dad left him. You want o win a championship? You get a guy who has the highest scoring avg and steals in the playoffs and never played a bad finals series unlike those 3 players you mentioned. Lebron and curry have had multiple bad finals series



NightlyPoe said:
Pinkie_pie said:

Easier to build a championship team around bird, curry or lebron yet they all only won 3 championship each compare to jordans 6. As soon as jordan had an all star player his team winning championships. Could have been 8 straight if he didnt retire during his prime when his dad left him. You want o win a championship? You get a guy who has the highest scoring avg and steals in the playoffs and never played a bad finals series unlike those 3 players you mentioned. Lebron and curry have had multiple bad finals series

Yes, easier to build a championship team around them.  You're using a quirk in history that Jordan did win championships because his team was excellent as proof.  Jordan could just as easily have never won a championship in his whole career if not for the right events that he could not control.

If championships are the measure, Bill Russell wins.

Again, I'm looking at the players and what wins games.  I'm not limiting my view to who happened to play better in a 30 game stretch.

What 30 game stretch you on about? You know what wins games? Defense, scoring and will to win and thats what jordan was best at. He never melted down at ant point of his career and always pushed his team and exerted his will. And you know why you should build your team around jordan over lebron? Loyalty. He wont cut and run and is willing to stay and build a good team into a great franchise. That doesnt happen by taking your talents wherever you can win championship. You still havent told me any good reason why you would build a team around bird curry or lebron over jordan. 



Pinkie_pie said:
NightlyPoe said:

Yes, easier to build a championship team around them.  You're using a quirk in history that Jordan did win championships because his team was excellent as proof.  Jordan could just as easily have never won a championship in his whole career if not for the right events that he could not control.

If championships are the measure, Bill Russell wins.

Again, I'm looking at the players and what wins games.  I'm not limiting my view to who happened to play better in a 30 game stretch.

What 30 game stretch you on about? You know what wins games? Defense, scoring and will to win and thats what jordan was best at. He never melted down at ant point of his career and always pushed his team and exerted his will. And you know why you should build your team around jordan over lebron? Loyalty. He wont cut and run and is willing to stay and build a good team into a great franchise. That doesnt happen by taking your talents wherever you can win championship. You still havent told me any good reason why you would build a team around bird curry or lebron over jordan. 

HAH Jordan would have peaced out of that Cavs organization.  Most players would have checked out asap.  It was and is incompetently run.  Jordan stuck around because the organization had a brain and was making good moves.  They picked up strong players a few years into Jordan's career and had staff that knew what they were doing.

Honestly, the fact Lebron went back to Cleveland shoots your "chasing rings" argument out of the sky.  He could have had more chances had he stayed in Miami, but he wanted a championship for his home so he went back.  

As for picking players other than Jordan, every player has their place and some are flat out more flexible.  You pick Jordan, your effectiveness is going to be determined by how good of a triangle you can assemble and how good your coach is at running it.  Because that's Jordan's place, as part of the triangle.  Other players you can be a lot more flexible with how you assemble your team and who coaches.  That is less a GOAT discussion thing and more of a strategic thing.  I would personally go Chamberlain over Jordan cause I know he can adapt to at least three radically different roles depending on what you need.  



Nuvendil said:
Pinkie_pie said:

What 30 game stretch you on about? You know what wins games? Defense, scoring and will to win and thats what jordan was best at. He never melted down at ant point of his career and always pushed his team and exerted his will. And you know why you should build your team around jordan over lebron? Loyalty. He wont cut and run and is willing to stay and build a good team into a great franchise. That doesnt happen by taking your talents wherever you can win championship. You still havent told me any good reason why you would build a team around bird curry or lebron over jordan. 

HAH Jordan would have peaced out of that Cavs organization.  Most players would have checked out asap.  It was and is incompetently run.  Jordan stuck around because the organization had a brain and was making good moves.  They picked up strong players a few years into Jordan's career and had staff that knew what they were doing.

Honestly, the fact Lebron went back to Cleveland shoots your "chasing rings" argument out of the sky.  He could have had more chances had he stayed in Miami, but he wanted a championship for his home so he went back.  

As for picking players other than Jordan, every player has their place and some are flat out more flexible.  You pick Jordan, your effectiveness is going to be determined by how good of a triangle you can assemble and how good your coach is at running it.  Because that's Jordan's place, as part of the triangle.  Other players you can be a lot more flexible with how you assemble your team and who coaches.  That is less a GOAT discussion thing and more of a strategic thing.  I would personally go Chamberlain over Jordan cause I know he can adapt to at least three radically different roles depending on what you need.  

We never know if jordan would have left that Cleveland team but the fact that he didnt leave chicago whenthey were struggling suggest otherwise. And you can bet that if Cleveland didnt have the no.1 draft pick lebron wouldnt come back to Cleveland. Cleveland with kyrie and love was in a better position to win a championship than a bang up wade and health issue bosh. So again you havent told me a good reason why you would start a team with bird curry or lebron over jordan if you want to win championships. Jordan never melted in the finals like curry, lebron and bird did. Jordan won 6 championships with only 1 all star which is twice as much as bird curry and lebron even though they had multiple all stars for most of their careers

Last edited by Pinkie_pie - on 10 June 2019

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Pinkie_pie said:
Nuvendil said:

HAH Jordan would have peaced out of that Cavs organization.  Most players would have checked out asap.  It was and is incompetently run.  Jordan stuck around because the organization had a brain and was making good moves.  They picked up strong players a few years into Jordan's career and had staff that knew what they were doing.

Honestly, the fact Lebron went back to Cleveland shoots your "chasing rings" argument out of the sky.  He could have had more chances had he stayed in Miami, but he wanted a championship for his home so he went back.  

As for picking players other than Jordan, every player has their place and some are flat out more flexible.  You pick Jordan, your effectiveness is going to be determined by how good of a triangle you can assemble and how good your coach is at running it.  Because that's Jordan's place, as part of the triangle.  Other players you can be a lot more flexible with how you assemble your team and who coaches.  That is less a GOAT discussion thing and more of a strategic thing.  I would personally go Chamberlain over Jordan cause I know he can adapt to at least three radically different roles depending on what you need.  

We never know if jordan would have left that Cleveland team but the fact that he didnt leave chicago whenthey were struggling suggest otherwise. And you can bet that if Cleveland didnt have the no.1 draft pick lebron wouldnt come back to Cleveland. Cleveland with kyrie and love was in a better possible to win a championship with a bang up wade and health issue bosh. So again you havent told me a good reason why you would start a team with bird curry or lebron over jordan if you want to win championships. Jordan never melted in the finals like curry, lebron and bird did. Jordan won 6 championships with only 1 all star which is twice as much as bird curry and lebron even though they had multiple all stars for most of their careers

No, Jordan got his screw ups out of the way in the seasons he never made it to the finals.  

And actually, I did give a reason, you just don't want to hear it. 



Nuvendil said:
Pinkie_pie said:

We never know if jordan would have left that Cleveland team but the fact that he didnt leave chicago whenthey were struggling suggest otherwise. And you can bet that if Cleveland didnt have the no.1 draft pick lebron wouldnt come back to Cleveland. Cleveland with kyrie and love was in a better possible to win a championship with a bang up wade and health issue bosh. So again you havent told me a good reason why you would start a team with bird curry or lebron over jordan if you want to win championships. Jordan never melted in the finals like curry, lebron and bird did. Jordan won 6 championships with only 1 all star which is twice as much as bird curry and lebron even though they had multiple all stars for most of their careers

No, Jordan got his screw ups out of the way in the seasons he never made it to the finals.  

And actually, I did give a reason, you just don't want to hear it. 

The seasons he didnt make the finals was when he had no help whatsoever. As soon as pippen turned into an all star they started winning championships. Pippen becoming an all star in his 3rd season was the major reason why they started winning championship, not the triangle system. If you want to win many championships you build a team around jordan because he won 6. Lebron, bird and curry only won half as much and all choked in the finals. 



NightlyPoe said:
Pinkie_pie said:

What 30 game stretch you on about? You know what wins games? Defense, scoring and will to win and thats what jordan was best at. He never melted down at ant point of his career and always pushed his team and exerted his will. And you know why you should build your team around jordan over lebron? Loyalty. He wont cut and run and is willing to stay and build a good team into a great franchise. That doesnt happen by taking your talents wherever you can win championship. You still havent told me any good reason why you would build a team around bird curry or lebron over jordan. 

Jordan didn't just cut and run instead of building a good team.  He simply retired.  I'm going to repeat that:  He quit.  If the Bulls had fallen apart after his first retirement, he would have just stayed retired.  Jordan was only willing to play for a poor team when he was older and no one expected anything of him.  He couldn't take the pressure of not playing when the deck was stacked in his favor.

Compare that to Lebron who has jumped to a basketcase lottery team in twice.  Which one of them is truly the one willing to take up a challenge?

I thought I had said why I'd take those players over Jordan many times.  They are disruptive on offense and not only create opportunities to score for themselves, but they do so in a way that makes it significantly easier for their teammates to score.  Jordan's offense is less dynamic and doesn't raise the overall level of the team.  There's a reason why Jordan's record when he was scoring in the 50s and 60s wasn't all that great.  His teammates stopped playing and just sorta watched him.

30 games is about how many NBA Finals games each has played (a bit more in Lebron's case).

He never quit because his team was bad. He retired because his father was murdered. His team was still the best when he retired because he stayed and built a dynasty. Lebron was the one that quit and ran to join up with wade and bosh because he knew he couldnt win a championship with Cleveland. I cant believe you think jordan 1st retirement is the same as lebron leaving Cleveland to join wade and bosh. Jordan wanted to beat the best. Not join them. Lebron went back to Cleveland because they still had kyrie and the no.1 pick and Lebron knew he could get an all star player for that which was kevin love. Jordan also was a better leader than lebron. When Jr smith had brain fade at the end of game 1, lebron didnt encourage his team instead he was sitting on the bench in silence and feeding the discouragement. Jordan not only won all of his finals series , (the 30 games you mentioned) his home and away record is still far better than curry and lebron. Build a team around jordan with a single all star and you start winning championship after championship and thats why its easier to win championship if you build a team around jordan because he only needs 1 all star. Bird, curry and lebron had multiple all stars but could only win 3 championship each compare to jordans 6



Jordan's shot to win his sixth title and last match ever as a Bull remains as one of his greatest ever moments in NBA history. The Shot, no foul call, he created space and got it as Russell stumbled. Jordan won the match and his sixth NBA title and sixth NBA Finals MVP.
I have seen this footage countless times on Youtube. Greatest Shot of all time.



NightlyPoe said:
Pinkie_pie said:

He never quit because his team was bad. He retired because his father was murdered. His team was still the best when he retired because he stayed and built a dynasty. Lebron was the one that quit and ran to join up with wade and bosh because he knew he couldnt win a championship with Cleveland. I cant believe you think jordan 1st retirement is the same as lebron leaving Cleveland to join wade and bosh. Jordan wanted to beat the best. Not join them. Lebron went back to Cleveland because they still had kyrie and the no.1 pick and Lebron knew he could get an all star player for that which was kevin love. Jordan also was a better leader than lebron. When Jr smith had brain fade at the end of game 1, lebron didnt encourage his team instead he was sitting on the bench in silence and feeding the discouragement. Jordan not only won all of his finals series , (the 30 games you mentioned) his home and away record is still far better than curry and lebron. Build a team around jordan with a single all star and you start winning championship after championship and thats why its easier to win championship if you build a team around jordan because he only needs 1 all star. Bird, curry and lebron had multiple all stars but could only win 3 championship each compare to jordans 6

Several things:

1.  Jordan quit after Phil Jackson retired, the team's core was getting old (he was 35, Pippen was 32, and Rodman was 38), and it was going to be difficult to bring everyone back.  It was going to be even harder to keep everyone on the same page.  Jordan knew that without Jackson, the Bulls were going to fall apart.  So, yes, Jordan quit because his team was bad.  Or at least his team was unlikely to win another championship.  Jordan was already approaching burnout again, and had no desire to fail.  So he quit again and only came back when the pressure of being Jordan was off.

2.  Jordan did not retire the first time because his father died.  Not only has Jordan said he planned to do it before his father died in his autobiography, but he was telling people he wanted to retire as early as 1991 as documented in the biography "The Jordan Rules" released in 1992, Jordan was talking about it through the 93 season, and the night after they won the championship he told Darrell Walker that he'd probably seen him play for the last time the night after winning the first threepeat.  Jordan was simply burnt out.  At best you can say that maybe he would have changed his mind if his father were still alive and his murder crystallized his thoughts, but this just kicks the retirement can down the road one more year.  He didn't want to be Jordan anymore and switched to a sport where there wouldn't be a burden that comes with failing.

Yes, quitting to avoid the pressure of failure was a common theme in both retirements.  Jordan is lauded for his mental tenacity, but his mentality was toxic and shortened his career.  If the Bulls had fallen apart after he left, as they would have if they didn't have a 2nd MVP candidate, the best coach in the league, and Krause re-tooling on the fly, Jordan would have stayed retired because he wouldn't have wanted to spend a second rebuilding.  No more championships, no more games.  And the only reason it didn't happen was because the Chicago Bulls really were a good team and not just a one-man show.

Do you see what I mean by a quirk in history?

3.  I didn't compare Lebron's going to Miami to Jordan's first retirement.  I compared it to the other two team changes.  But Jordan quitting was a much bigger black mark than Lebron leaving a team that would never win a championship to stack the deck in his favor for a few years.

4.  When Lebron arrived back in Cleveland, Kyrie Irving was only a budding talent, there was no guarantee of getting Kevin Love, and the rest of the team was a hot mess.  That was a gamble.  It was a challenge.  If it were merely chasing rings, James could have gone to any of the two dozen teams that were better than the Cavaliers.  He chose the challenge of winning in Cleveland.  As he chose the challenge of Los Angeles.  The "chasing rings" narrative is long over.

5.  Jordan needed one star.  And the best coach in NBA history.  And the league's best shooter.  And the best rebounder in the league.  And the best 6th man in the league.  The Bulls were never a two-man team either.  Again, without Jordan they only lost a couple more games in 1994.  Yes, they got a couple of pieces, but obviously they were still good without Jordan.

So, two points.  First, Michael Jordan's legacy rested on a very shaky set of circumstances.  The six championships might well have never happened if not for events totally out of his control.  And a large reason for it is due to a flaw in Jordan's makeup that forced him out of the game early twice even with all his success.

Second, that's why championships don't mean as much as you're making out.  Yes, players have a say in how things turn out.  But so do injuries, both to themselves and their teammates.  The salary cap has a say in things.  A front office and coaching staff has a say.  Trainers have a say.  The era you're in and your competition has a say.  You can repeat "six championships" all day, but that isn't the end of the discussion.

Jordan was 35 when he retired the 2nd time. 95% of the players lucky to be playing at that age. Jordan had already won 3 championships with the team that drafted him when he 1st retired he didnt have anything else to prove unlike Lebron leaving his team because he knew he couldnt win.  Again jordan didnt need the best rebounder, the best 6th man to win his 1st 3 peat. Jordan haters always making shit up im done with you