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The Official US Politics OT

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jason1637 said:
Machiavellian said:

So you blame the police for not having enough people to police a large group of people because it's somehow their job to be in multiples places at once. Somehow the police magically knows how many people will show up and how much manpower they will need to police a large area when they are already shorthanded.

I believe you really need to think this through a little more.  Blame is always easy to throw around unless you fully know the situation.  It would be much easier if the police just deny the rights you just told Pemalite these groups have and not let the protest happen at all since there is no way to know how many people will show up to these things.  It's not like there is a poster with the numbers advertised somewhere, especially since a lot of people can come from out of town.

We have a lot of police in this country and there is an approval process for these protests so they are informed beforehand about it and they should do a better job at being more prepared. This isn't their first protest so they can come up with a good estimate on the amount of participants bad on other protest.

Jason you are being very naive about this.  Yes, the protest which was the conservatives can be approved.  What is stopping the other people which was Antifa from coming.  There is no approval process for them and there is no way to know how many were going to show up and counter protest.  Its as if you are only looking at half the problem and not thinking about the total issue.  Anyone can just show up to these protest and there is no way to totally prepare or being in multiple places at once for already shorthand amount of Police.  

You are correct this isn't the first rodeo and the problem remains the same, not enough police for the area to police.  So what should happen is they deny any protest period and they would not have to worry about the issue at all.



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Machiavellian said:
jason1637 said:

We have a lot of police in this country and there is an approval process for these protests so they are informed beforehand about it and they should do a better job at being more prepared. This isn't their first protest so they can come up with a good estimate on the amount of participants bad on other protest.

Jason you are being very naive about this.  Yes, the protest which was the conservatives can be approved.  What is stopping the other people which was Antifa from coming.  There is no approval process for them and there is no way to know how many were going to show up and counter protest.  Its as if you are only looking at half the problem and not thinking about the total issue.  Anyone can just show up to these protest and there is no way to totally prepare or being in multiple places at once for already shorthand amount of Police.  

You are correct this isn't the first rodeo and the problem remains the same, not enough police for the area to police.  So what should happen is they deny any protest period and they would not have to worry about the issue at all.

You basically summed it up in the second half of your post. This has happened before and continues to happen. The police should know better and be better prepared for these situations. It's their fault for not being prepared. Denying them their right to protest is illegal and it would just be the cops being lazy.



Cops need to use their guns. Fire a few hundred bullets randomly in the crowd and then claim self-defense. Some of the protesters will have guns on them, so it's not even necessary to change the scene with some forged evidence afterwards.



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RolStoppable said:
Cops need to use their guns. Fire a few hundred bullets randomly in the crowd and then claim self-defense. Some of the protesters will have guns on them, so it's not even necessary to change the scene with some forged evidence afterwards.

You must not live in the US.  Cops have been doing that for years.



jason1637 said:
Machiavellian said:

Jason you are being very naive about this.  Yes, the protest which was the conservatives can be approved.  What is stopping the other people which was Antifa from coming.  There is no approval process for them and there is no way to know how many were going to show up and counter protest.  Its as if you are only looking at half the problem and not thinking about the total issue.  Anyone can just show up to these protest and there is no way to totally prepare or being in multiple places at once for already shorthand amount of Police.  

You are correct this isn't the first rodeo and the problem remains the same, not enough police for the area to police.  So what should happen is they deny any protest period and they would not have to worry about the issue at all.

You basically summed it up in the second half of your post. This has happened before and continues to happen. The police should know better and be better prepared for these situations. It's their fault for not being prepared. Denying them their right to protest is illegal and it would just be the cops being lazy.

So how do you become better prepared when you do not have the personnel.  Its very easy to make this statement but I do not hear any solutions coming from you.  How do you police an area you do not have enough people to be in all areas at once.

So its the police fault because they do not have enough people is this the only way you see it.  Needless to say, I am guessing you have absolutely no experience in this area.  How many protest have you been a part of in during your time on this earth.  I have been in a few and I can tell you this.  If you believe that there will always be a cop around to support your right to protest while another side is counter to you exercising your right you will always have someone to blame but it will mean nothing if you are getting stomped into the dirt.



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jason1637 said:
Pemalite said:

They have the right to protest... Until they don't.
Violence and extremism is where the line should be drawn... No exception.

The ones being violent should be arrested or given a light punishment as long ad they don't kill someone but the whole group should not be punished.

It's the mob mentality from like-minded peers that is the issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_mentality

Far-left and far-right groups that resort to any sort of violence tends to fester such nonsense ideas internally for long periods of time... Hence why I believe they should all be shut down until they can understand the limits to their rights, it's extremism at the end of the day.



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Machiavellian said:
jason1637 said:

You basically summed it up in the second half of your post. This has happened before and continues to happen. The police should know better and be better prepared for these situations. It's their fault for not being prepared. Denying them their right to protest is illegal and it would just be the cops being lazy.

So how do you become better prepared when you do not have the personnel.  Its very easy to make this statement but I do not hear any solutions coming from you.  How do you police an area you do not have enough people to be in all areas at once.

So its the police fault because they do not have enough people is this the only way you see it.  Needless to say, I am guessing you have absolutely no experience in this area.  How many protest have you been a part of in during your time on this earth.  I have been in a few and I can tell you this.  If you believe that there will always be a cop around to support your right to protest while another side is counter to you exercising your right you will always have someone to blame but it will mean nothing if you are getting stomped into the dirt.

They have the personnel to send a sufficient amount of officers to these protest.

If this was the first time something like this has happened I won't be blaming the police. The issue is that this keeps happening and the police are not prepared. I'm not a protest person but I have been to a few. All cops have to do is stop people from getting seriously hurt. Get involved when they see that violence is about to erupt and try to stop it.



Machiavellian said:
jason1637 said:

I don't think these groups should be forced to shut down. Yeah they're pretty toxic and should be condemned but they have the right to protest their far right and far left ideals. Police departments should do better jobs at trying to stop these encounters from getting out of control.

You cannot put this all on the Police, they are only so many and if the crowds on both sides are big they will not have enough personnel. The thing about these groups is once they go violent, then they place themselves in the position to be shut down, denied rights to public protest or assemble. Now the key is if the other side had the opportunity would they plant people to commit violence in the name of the other side.  Oh the games we can play once regulations starts flying around.

The police have a job to do. They serve and protect. That's their job and people look up to them and rely on them to do their job and do it properly. If they can't handle it, that's their problem, not the people's.

Or maybe people shouldn't be putting everything on the President? Considering they're just one person, who has a job to do for the people, who's supposed to just deal with it, whatever comes their way.



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Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

I know we've kind of moved on from this topic but just came across this article in relation to the issue of euthanasia.

Basically it outlines a retired school teacher's battle against motor neurone disease and the fact that he's having to spend much of his final time on this planet filling out forms and campaigning for legalised euthanasia.

He'll have to die earlier than he would if it was offered in Scotland and say his final goodbyes in a sterile hospital room in Zurich, rather than at home with his family...

Couple of quotes that I thought were particularly poignant from the man in question :

"If the choice of an assisted death was available to me here in Scotland so many of my worries would have been eased and my remaining time would have been spent in better ways than burdensome and complex admin. Instead, that precious time would be spent with my wife, my family and my friends.

"The current laws (and lack of laws) around assisted dying in Scotland are cruel, outdated and discriminatory.

"I intend to spend the next eight weeks working with Dignity in Dying Scotland trying to change them."

And his wife :

"I am spending the last few months of Richard's life watching him die very slowly before my eyes but, as well as that, I am watching him go through this process which is incredibly stressful.

"I would much rather be with friends and family here when it's his time than in a foreign country that's a transactional business arrangement and it's not with the people that I love."

She also believes it should be a "human right" for individuals to end their life at a time of their choosing.

Mr Selley added: "I think if those who oppose assisted dying could spend just one day in my shoes they would change their view."

The last one is the most important for me, within the context of the discussion we're having here - I'm observing some with quite strong views on the subject without actually having any actual relatable experience of what situations like this can be like to live through...



jason1637 said:

They have the personnel to send a sufficient amount of officers to these protest.

Do you have evidence for this claim?