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sundin13 said:

1) For clarification, are you saying that you don't believe that calling all cops pigs or murders is just as bad as racism?

I am condemning the approach that generalizing anyone for anything is intrinsically bad and not weighing which one is worst than the other.

sundin13 said:

2) I didn't say you do condone it, but if that is what you got out of that, you seemed to have completely missed what I was saying. It isn't a question of morality. It is a question of who has the responsibility to do something about it. It is the responsibility of the system to correct these injustices which have brought us to this point.

The catalyst in this instance was the intrinsic actions of one individual.

sundin13 said:

3) I think that if you are spending your time during this crisis condemning those who are righteously angry over decades of injustice, regardless of how they choose to express that righteous anger, you are beating back the oppressed, because you are giving power to the oppressors. You are giving power to the military and the police who are stepping forward to silence these protests. You are giving power to those on the news, or in government who are reducing this righteous anger to thuggery and anarchism. You are giving power to those who benefit from the silence of the oppressed.t think you are wrong on this one.

False. I am not beating back the oppressed. I have already stated that I support the oppressed. Not once, not twice but multiple times.
Don't put words in my mouth.

sundin13 said:

While you may support the protesters in other ways, in this way and within this argument, you are benefiting the oppressors. Now, that doesn't mean that you have to support these actions, but I believe that if you truly believe in change, there are better ways to fight for it in ways that are consistent with your own personal morality, such as contributing to the charitable organizations which are helping the small businesses which have been destroyed.

I know that may sound harsh and extreme, but it is what I truly believe. I don't mean it as an indictment of your character, but a criticism of your actions. From everything I've seen from you, you seem to have your heart in the right place. I just think you are wrong on this one.

Even George Floyd's family is against the violence. It's not just me that is against it, but those who have directly been affected by this ordeal.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/george-floyds-brother-speaks-out-against-riots-my-brother-wasnt-about-that/

And:

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/george-floyd-protests-06-01-20/h_50318c1e410ea696ade2d70fc7c374fa





--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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KiigelHeart said:
vivster said:

The big irony here is that the police above everyone else should be trained to defuse dangerous situations WITHOUT the use of force. Talking people down, unarmed combat and calm deescalation are the main pillars of creating order, with force only used as the very last resort.

Somehow the US managed to twist it that the police thinks just because they're the only ones allowed to use force, that they should use it as much as possible to make their job as easy as possible. That's so incredibly pathetic, but it's not surprising considering what kind of pathetic people are allowed within the force.

Any policeman who is not able to subdue or control an unarmed suspect without the use of a weapon has the wrong job and should be fired or relegated to desk work immediately.

lol nowhere in the world is every cop able to subdue every unarmed suspect in every situation with "unarmed combat". We wouldn't have many female officers if that was a requirement for example. 

Using a firearm should be the last resort and never used against unarmed suspects of course. But tools like mace and taser are also used to subdue a subject safely for both the police and suspect. It always depends on resistance, location and situation in general. 

Talking and de-escalating are the first steps. If an officer is good at doing that and hae other good qualities, I wouldn't give him a desk job because he/she isn't a martial arts champion.

All of the non-violent options are included. That's why I said "control" and not "take down". I have never ever seen a policeman in Germany getting even handsy with another person unless they were attacked directly with a weapon. An officer even taking out a weapon, let alone use it is so incredibly rare here. Even the most dangerous criminals are handled with such care as to not hurt or injure them. That's why most women in the force can do the exact same job a man does. Most people respect the police here because they know they won't hurt anyone.

Let me do a quick calculation and say that 99% of uses of tasers and mace in by cops in the US is absolutely unnecessary to deescalate or control a situation. Seeing a cop in full protective gear using a weapon to deal with an unarmed human is absolutely crazy in my eyes. Same goes for excessive force like ground slams, punches or kicks. A good cop doesn't need to use force and if he thinks he does he shouldn't be allowed alone on the streets. The police is out there to protect people and to do that job I expect each and everyone of them to be stronger and more capable, but also more peaceful than the average citizen. Just like I expect a firefighter to be able to carry a person out of a burning building.

Last edited by vivster - on 03 June 2020

If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Gun sales through the roof, business owners probably fearful of attack. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/1/gun-sales-surge-80-may-research-firm/

Hope this doesn't lead to more confrontation and more loss of life...



Ka-pi96 said:
Machiavellian said:

Should that not tell you something concerning the difference between the US and other countries especially Europe.  Cops are trained to shoot to kill if they pull out their gun.  They are trained to aim for the chest.  The US is a nation built on having and possessing guns.  Its always about having having that smoke, being able to shoot someone you are fearful of.  Many laws allow you to shoot someone just because you felt threaten and for Police during shootings this is their main go to defense.  

The thing is, you cannot compare the US to Europe because the US has a culture of violence.  We see it all the time from police brutality, school shootings, psycho shootings, gang shootings you name it.  The US violent pass against POC, Indians, Blacks, Asians you name it.  The language the US understand is violence because that is how the US gained its freedom and how any real change happen within the country.  People do not do anything in the US until their life is impacted.  

There are some problems with this.

Firstly, I believe Switzerland has more guns per capita than the US. How many murders/mass shootings do you get there? It's certainly possible to have possessing guns be a pretty major thing in a country without having all the gun violence.

Secondly, plenty of European countries have violent pasts too, yet they've toned it down significantly these days compared to the US. Just look at Scandinavia. They were the vikings, one of the most violent cultures on the planet, yet these days it's one of the best and fairest places in the world to live. Both Ireland and the Netherlands gained their freedom through violence as well (and probably other European countries), yet they too are some of the best countries in the world to live in.

Racism is still an issue in Europe. No doubt about that. But the US just takes racism to a whole nother level. And it can't really claim a unique history as the reason either. So what the fuck is the issue?

Switzerland does not have more guns per capita, the US has a per-capita ownership rate several times that of Switzerland. Contrary to what most right-wingers think, Switzerland is not a gun-lover's paradise. They still have far more stringent restrictions on gun ownership, carrying, and storage than even California, a state right wingers hold up as the be-all end-all of evil and repression in the world, and they actually increased gun regulations last year. Switzerland is only liberal in gun ownership in comparison with the rest of Europe. Its laws would never fly in the US. If they didn't get struck down by the Supreme Court, the right would be rioting over them.

The US doesn't just have a violent history, there is a real "might makes right" mentality in play.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56j06plUgs



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coolbeans said:
Machiavellian said:

I will agree that saying Chauvin would not have been fired and charged within days without going through the proper police procedures is more conspiracy then anything else and closure to a gut feeling.  Even though I was not the one to raise this probable cause, it was something my friends and I immediately noticed especially since a few are police officers.  Due to the nature of the incident and Chauvin record, It would appear the city wanted to quickly jump on the situation and fire him immediately because they knew this was going to be bad.  Think about it, he was fired without any investigation and probably told if he kept his mouth shut nothing more would come of this but the protest and violence quickly escalated out of control and they had to respond with charges to try and appease the people.  Chauvin getting a lawyer really isn't any clue if procedures were followed or not.  You get a lawyer anyway because you need to review all of your options and of course if things go south and charges are made, you need to get your defense up.

Well then I guess I have to refer back to my initial response.  I just don't like entertaining those conspiracies when most/all of us on here don't have all the information regarding MPD's activities around this time.  In fact, I actually did some digging with a local MN paper that does rebut your/mine previous assumptions.  

-Monday night: MPD announced the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension & FBI would be investigating the incident.

-Tuesday:  All 4 officers were initially put on administrative leave pending further investigation, but that was subsequently fast-tracked to being fired later that afternoon.

So, a lot of what we're contesting is based on a timeline we weren't fully aware of.  This seems like more of an indictment on MSM coverage (surprise, surprise!) because I've not seen this kind of clearly-presented breakdown thus far.  If all that's stated within this report is true...we're literally looking at one of the most prompt police department reactions against one of their own in recent memory.  [EDIT: Of course it's fair to say the department's reaction isn't complete either with respect to the other three officers who're complicit.  I'm isolating that claim based on the one who did the deed.]

Ok, after reading that break down it does appear that the department did follow procedures and fired the officers in an unprecedented fashion.  I will admit I was not privy to all the info within this report since I did not receive all the info and could be blamed for jumping to conclusion to fast.  You have to admit we have never seen an investigation start so fast and meet out a decision within a day when an officer is part of a civilian death.  We probably will not be privy to all the information that cause such a fast decision until a trial but it would be interesting to get more detail.



Props to u/Elike09 on reddit for putting together this small list.

"To protect and serve" my ass. It's not "a few bad apples", it's apparently if anything "a few good apples". This isn't a police, this is a militia with no oversight.

firing something at innocent person on their porch:
https://streamable.com/u2jzoo
cop appearing to be enjoying himself today:
https://v.redd.it/jjclrdzp8x151
cop shooting something at guy for saying "fuck you":
https://v.redd.it/zepg0b43ly151
cops breaking supplies for peaceful protestors:
https://v.redd.it/v8x8isj0xz151
nypd driving into protestors:
https://v.redd.it/mztm15kh00251 https://gfycat.com/misguidedrecklesscod
cops shoving an old dude to the ground:
https://v.redd.it/bluggpblrz151
police actively seeking out fights compilation:
https://v.redd.it/m82yxl4qh0251
cop driving at people aggressively on a campus:
https://v.redd.it/ngxvkoro60251
cop shooting rubber bullets at people watching from apartment:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Sarah_Mojarad/status/1266633046591078400?s=09
police shooting the press with rubber bullets:
https://v.redd.it/o3v8ps7rat151
police arresting a CNN reporter:
https://v.redd.it/yce9bpk8mo151
police doing a drive-by pepper spraying
https://mobile.twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1266193926316228609
photographer being pepper sprayed:
https://i.redd.it/4ix8f3j6dy151.jpg
guy with hands in the air gets his mask ripped off and pepper sprayed:
https://v.redd.it/wlx0gyoe21251
lady who was coming home with groceries who got a rubber bullet to the head:
https://i.redd.it/ns0uj557x0251.jpg
https://mobile.twitter.com/KevinRKrause/status/1266898396339675137
reporter blinded by rubber bullets:
https://mobile.twitter.com/KillerMartinis/status/1266618525600399361?s=19
reporter describes getting tear gassed:
https://mobile.twitter.com/mollyhf/status/1266911382613692422
couple getting yanked out of their car and tased for violating curfew:
https://mobile.twitter.com/GAFollowers/status/1266919104574865410?s=19
young woman gets shoved to the ground by officer:
https://mobile.twitter.com/whitney_hu/status/1266540710188195843?s=20
reporter sheltering in gas station is pepper sprayed: https://twitter.com/MichaelAdams317
reporter trying to get home gets window shot out:


cops come at a guy for filming a police car burning:

photographer arrested:
https://youtu.be/9wgkGLmphLE
Columbus police assaulting protestors:

congresswoman sprayed with pepper spray during protest:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/30/politics/joyce-beatty-ohio-pepper-sprayed-columbus-protest/index.html
7 protesters fired on with rubber bullets:
https://v.redd.it/tal1ncha4o151
cops pepper spraying a group of protestors without provocation https://v.redd.it/0dxnkso0a1251
young child allegedly pepper sprayed:
https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/video-shows-milk-poured-over-face-of-child-pepper-sprayed-in-seattle-protest
horse tramples young woman, police investigating: https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2020/05/30/watch-video-captures-moment-police-horse-tramples-woman-during-houston-rally/
cop pushes protestor with his bike
https://twitter.com/ava/status/1266797973834395648?s=20
Reuters reporters detail being shot at with rubber bullets:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-protest-update/reuters-cameraman-hit-by-rubber-bullets-as-police-disperse-protesters-idUSKBN237050
man pepper sprayed as he watches from his second floor apartment balcony (at 13s)
https://v.redd.it/l0yq3023p2251
Sarasota cop kneels on man's neck
https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/region-sarasota-manatee/sarasota-officer-on-administrative-leave-after-kneeling-on-mans-neck-during-arrest-police-say
Cop suspended for kneeing protester
https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/breakingnews/story/2020/jun/01/florida-police-officer-suspended-pushing-kneeling-woman/524327/#.XtXZVttmsD8.reddit
NY Congressman Zellnor Myrnie pepper sprayed and handcuffed peacefully protesting
https://i.redd.it/k7k6ghqpmz151.jpg



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

This is just so heartbreaking to see. It's like seeing Superman raping a kitten. HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT! HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO THE OPPOSITE! IN WHAT KIND OF JOB DO YOU NOT GET FIRED FOR DOING THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO?

I like the police, it has an important job. It exists to specifically protect me and do justice. I look up to policemen, I respect them and if I ever had any trouble I'd look for the next policeman to help me, because I know that's not only their job but their calling to do. Just like I trust a doctor to do everything in his power to save my life. Imagine a doctor starting to chop up his patients and instead of prescribing painkillers he kicks you in the head. It's just pure madness, yet that's exactly what's happening in the states right now.

And instead of taking people to justice, they're being protected. Protected by other cops, protected by politicians. You want to categorize a terrorist group? Look no further than your own fucking police!



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

dx11332sega said:
I think Michael jordan or a face everybody likes should lead BLM . people would not feel animousity to jordan unlike kaepernick. If jordan leads blm it would make people listen to jordan . kaepernick is hated by half population of usa if jordan leads which most of usa wont ignore jordan was there childhood heroe kaepernick is an unkwon so i think thats where theres still bad apples still not listening? IDK?

Wouldn't matter, all they'd do is hate Jordan. The same half of the population will reflexively turn against anything that is even remotely critical of the status quo, and they'll immediately call it another attempt to take down Donald Trump.

vivster said:
This is just so heartbreaking to see. It's like seeing Superman raping a kitten. HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT! HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO THE OPPOSITE! IN WHAT KIND OF JOB DO YOU NOT GET FIRED FOR DOING THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO?

I like the police, it has an important job. It exists to specifically protect me and do justice. I look up to policemen, I respect them and if I ever had any trouble I'd look for the next policeman to help me, because I know that's not only their job but their calling to do. Just like I trust a doctor to do everything in his power to save my life. Imagine a doctor starting to chop up his patients and instead of prescribing painkillers he kicks you in the head. It's just pure madness, yet that's exactly what's happening in the states right now.

And instead of taking people to justice, they're being protected. Protected by other cops, protected by politicians. You want to categorize a terrorist group? Look no further than your own fucking police!

Police have "qualified immunity", as per a 1982 Supreme Court decision, Harlow v. Fitzgerald. It makes it incredibly difficult to even get them charged, let alone convicted. It's a real problem when you have criminal cops with no accountability. And the "good cops" don't talk.



SanAndreasX said:
dx11332sega said:
I think Michael jordan or a face everybody likes should lead BLM . people would not feel animousity to jordan unlike kaepernick. If jordan leads blm it would make people listen to jordan . kaepernick is hated by half population of usa if jordan leads which most of usa wont ignore jordan was there childhood heroe kaepernick is an unkwon so i think thats where theres still bad apples still not listening? IDK?

Wouldn't matter, all they'd do is hate Jordan. The same half of the population will reflexively turn against anything that is even remotely critical of the status quo, and they'll immediately call it another attempt to take down Donald Trump.

vivster said:
This is just so heartbreaking to see. It's like seeing Superman raping a kitten. HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT! HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO THE OPPOSITE! IN WHAT KIND OF JOB DO YOU NOT GET FIRED FOR DOING THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO?

I like the police, it has an important job. It exists to specifically protect me and do justice. I look up to policemen, I respect them and if I ever had any trouble I'd look for the next policeman to help me, because I know that's not only their job but their calling to do. Just like I trust a doctor to do everything in his power to save my life. Imagine a doctor starting to chop up his patients and instead of prescribing painkillers he kicks you in the head. It's just pure madness, yet that's exactly what's happening in the states right now.

And instead of taking people to justice, they're being protected. Protected by other cops, protected by politicians. You want to categorize a terrorist group? Look no further than your own fucking police!

Police have "qualified immunity", as per a 1982 Supreme Court decision, Harlow v. Fitzgerald. It makes it incredibly difficult to even get them charged, let alone convicted. It's a real problem when you have criminal cops with no accountability. And the "good cops" don't talk.

I think I know what's happening right now. They decided to do the Stanford Prison Experiment again, but this time on a bigger scale.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.