I blame the cold war, red scare, McCarthyism and the Comics Code for that. Under those, anything other than idolatry and mindless support for those two institutions were considered very bad, to the point that any criticisms of them, no matter how justified, were either outright banned or enough to brand you as a supporter of communism and an enemy of the state if you're unlucky.

The effects of these decades of lack of criticism, and thus the resulting meaningful reforms, can be clearly seen now by the behavior of the police and military police forces during this crisis. The gap is so large that even if serious reforms were to take place right now, it would still take decades for them to come into full effect.

Why aren't you giving the same benefit of the doubt to the actual protesters? How come it's only a few bad apples when it comes to the police but all the protesters are acting in extremist ways?? And most of the lives hurt and/or lost were the protesters when the police acted with violence and instigated the peaceful protests btw.

It's not just this one officer, it's not just this one murder, it's not just this one event. It's decades long police brutality upheld by a centuries old oppressive, systematically racist form of governance that values the lives of black people less than that of white people. This hatred has woven itself into every institution in America. These protests, not the violence agitated by the police, are the manifestation of the voices of people that aren't being heard and that aren't being protected and provided for like they should.

"Well then you and the rest of those in the US with your opinion had better hurry up and figure out how to engage in meaningful conversations towards some kind of consensus with your rioting peers."

>Not easy to reason with people who are mid-riot.

"Your demonstrated strategy for political discourse on this forum lacks imagination in your pursuit to learn, in that you choose to not exercise your imagination. You seem too scared to think/talk about situations that's not got some perfectly framed and uncut video-footage associated with it, which limits your ability to be aware of what can/cannot be likely. Unfortunately we dont have that luxury in the real-world and without using your imagination, it's gonna be hard to properly exercise empathy and connect with those on the other side to work on a solution that gets collective buy-in ... some might also call this a functioning democracy ;)"

>Imagination is nice and all but it can only get us so far. I'm quite fond of camera footage, cameras are unbiased witnesses after all and I like to see actual events and base my actions on actual events over imagined events.

Understood. Will do. So do you agree with me that preventative measures are in fact proactive measures?

The USA also doesn't value it's workers with a federal minimum wage of just $7.25, which is absolutely pathetic. - How can anyone survive on that even working full time? How do people afford a child? An Education on $7.25?
There are even American hospitals that will charge parents to hold their own baby after it has been born. Like. What the shit.

The debt continues to increase despite one of Trumps many broken election promises that the deficit would be fixed, they are more concerned with giving billionaires and big business a tax break, which ironically he probably benefits from directly.

I think the American dream is still there... It's just on the back burner, there is systemic functional issues from the very top, right down to the bottom of government which needs a significant revaluation and overhaul.

My parents were low-income, but low-income in Australia is still damn respectable, but as I was growing up, they studied and improved their education, they fell into higher paid jobs and entered middle income tax thresholds... Even minimum wage you can afford a comfortable lifestyle, you don't need to worry about healthcare, education costs, putting food on the table, anything on top of that is just a bonus.

Ironically, I didn't want to be a shit kicker, so entered the health industry which paid the bills and worked to become a first responder and entered a tax threshold higher than both my parents incomes combined. - Amazing what a proper functional education system and job market can do.

The flip side to all of this is that... You do have a subset of society who don't have any real work ethic, so they just live on welfare for their entire lives and just drink, do drugs. That's their choice, guess it keeps them out of societies hair and gives other people with motivation more opportunities in the job market, so that is a positive I guess.

It's not. You do the wrong thing in Australia and you get your ass dragged through court, police or not.
No one is above the law.

There are also stringent training and mental health tests that are frequently performed to ensure abuse cases are minimal.

I tend to work with police at most major incidences here and they are for the most part, just normal people with goals and aspirations.

They have lost their social license, hopefully this results in the catalyst for systemic changes in the American law enforcement system.

I think the issue I have with all of this... Is that people are painting all police officers with the same coloured brush.
...And that is equally as dangerous as painting all African Americans with the same coloured brush.

Using your logic of silence is violence can be applied to any demographic, if you have a person of colour murder someone, should we label every person of colour the same? No. No we do not. That is how racism and bigotry starts and that just isn't acceptable. Ever.

Just because it's an Authority on the receiving end doesn't change that. - First responders (And I will include police in this) are typically trained to "take a step back" if they are uncomfortable with something, there isn't any shame in police officers taking a step back and not getting involved, you will not be caught in any crossfire from either side then.

I would assume a large proportion of protestors aren't doing the wrong thing, could have framed my statements a little better, I have not and will not pick a side in this childish bullshit.
But from the visual representation I have seen, things are pretty extreme and the protestors and counter protestors are being extremist.

Demonstrations need to be peaceful, it needs to take the legal route.
If someone takes the low road, you take the high road.

Either side cannot be forgiven for their transgressions and those people need to be held accountable in the rule of law.

I am part of the LGBTQI community, I know very well from first hand experience what it's like to be on the receiving end of discrimination, especially as someone who was "out" when the country was very homophobic, but no way is causing violence and destruction an appropriate answer.

Just a few comments I have in relation to some of the things you said here:

-In regards to the first part of your post, I agree that not all cops are racist and not all cops abuse their power, however, something I've said a few times in this thread, is that looking at this as an issue with individuals either being good or bad is the wrong way to go about it (imo). The issue isn't that some people choose to abuse the power that they have been given, it is that the system is built in such a way that these abuses will be both inevitable and common. That is why I try to not go down this route of "one bad apple" or "not all cops". It just isn't productive in my opinion, no matter what side of the issue that it is coming from. Now, I'll let tsogud speak for themselves, but I think their post is pretty consistent with the opinion I've expressed here. They are communicating an indictment of the system, while asking the individuals involved with that system to demand change. I think that is entirely fair, personally.

Further, there is a big difference between comparing the police system to a racial group. One is a system, while the other is not. I think as such, it is neither hypocritical nor problematic to condemn the police system and not condemn a racial group due to the actions of individuals within those groups. They are fundamentally different and as such, this comparison holds no water (imo).

-In regards to the second part, I would just like to say, that while I personally disagree with the violent and destructive behaviors of some individuals involved in these protests, I do not believe that it is my right as a white man to step in and tell those who have been the victims of systematic injustice, how they are allowed to protest.

Which is why I promote the path of systemic legislative change through peaceful means, such change needs to be demanded by all... And now that the police have lost their social license, now is the perfect time to do so, just need someone competent at the very top to get the ball rolling.

"Police" is an identifier to a group of individuals, it's not just a system, it's an identifier of those in the service.

African American is also an identifier to a group of individuals, yes there are differences between the two, but the logic that is used for one can be used for the other for the most part.

Either way, I am not in the business of labeling all demographics with the same colour of brush, neither should anyone else.

I disagree. Everyone should condemn violence. - Maybe my view is skewed on this, but I have a degree of empathy towards individuals that are suffering, probably why I do what I do, put my life at risk to save others.

Violence affects more than just the direct participants.

And we should be scrutinizing how people protest, there is a right and wrong way to go about things... Protesting that results in life and property lost is not appropriate, shit even legal protesting.

I disagree pretty fundamentally with that first bit to the extent that I completely fail to see your logic. It is the responsibility of the police system to regulate itself. Like, it is the responsibility of my boss to ensure that I am meeting my task in a way which meets the shared goal of the organization I work for. Similarly, there is group responsibility when an officer fails to uphold their responsibility in the police system as there is within any organization. However, for the policing system, their responsibility isn't just to a boss or shareholders, it is to the community. When an officer fails to demand change within a broken organization that is negatively impacting the community, they are failing to uphold their foundational responsibility.

None of these characteristics apply to a racial group. There is no system of responsibility linking individuals and there is no foundational responsibility. These are individuals with some shared traits, not a part of a common web with a shared purpose within a system of command and responsibility.

The comparison simply fails.

As for the second bit, maybe if this wasn't a problem that had been going on for generations I would be able to agree with you. I would like it if people protested the "right" way, however, we have largely seen that protesting the "right" way hasn't worked. More so, when someone does protest in a completely nonviolent way, they are still told "not here, not now, not like this, can't you do it in a way where we don't have to look at it". Like, I don't like violent protests, but all of this blood is on the hands of the system which has failed to implement change. I've quoted this a few times, but in the words of Martin Luther King Jr "a riot is the language of the unheard [...] And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention."

Telling these victims of injustice how to protest after they've been given the finger every time they've tried to protest peacefully seems entirely inappropriate to me. You do what you want, but I feel my moral responsibility in this affair is to let the people express their entirely justified rage and sorrow as they would like, and focus my efforts elsewhere.

"As for the second bit, maybe if this wasn't a problem that had been going on for generations I would be able to agree with you. I would like it if people protested the "right" way, however, we have largely seen that protesting the "right" way hasn't worked."

>The LA riots of the 90s didn't seem to do a thing to prevent Floyd's death either. Maybe rioting and looting isn't the way either?

"More so, when someone does protest in a completely nonviolent way, they are still told "not here, not now, not like this, can't you do it in a way where we don't have to look at it". Like, I don't like violent protests, but all of this blood is on the hands of the system which has failed to implement change."

>I'm still curious as to what change it is you'd like to see.

When one sets out to achieve a goal, it's important to define that goal so that one can track progress and discern the moment it has been achieved.

I think Dr. King knew that and practiced non-violence his whole life and managed to get things done without rioting or looting. I'm sure he had his detractors that told him "that's not the right way", among them people like Malcolm X, but had Dr King resorted to violence, that would have been the moment his detractors would have gained higher moral basis to oppose him and potentially win allies that were sympathetic to King's goals but also very much opposed to violence.

"I've quoted this a few times, but in the words of Martin Luther King Jr "a riot is the language of the unheard [...] And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention."

>Officer Derek was fired and has been hit with murder/manslaughter charges.

When person a kills person b, directly or indirectly, the appropriate course of action is to put that person on trial and carry out the sentence as given.

Not sure what more one could want. Perhaps we could put in place measures to reduce the risk of mishap but I don't think there ever will be a time where we can reduce the likelihood of mishap to absolute zero. Law enforcement means confrontation of some sort is ultimately inevitable and there will never not be a potential for something somewhere to go wrong.

How does one guard against human error? Against corruption? Against accident?

One can try with great success but never perfect success. The potential for something going wrong somewhere will never be absolute zero.

You are falsely equating a profession, with which you have a choice, with a racial group, with which you don't. How can that make sense to you?? They chose to be a cop, they chose to take and follow an oath to protect the citizens of their country not murder them, they chose to stay silent and standby while someone was getting murdered. You don't choose, or change, your race, you don't choose the society in which you are born into, you don't choose to be systematically targeted because of the color of your skin. Their badge comes off at the end of their shift or when they quit or get fired, but black people cannot take off their skin when they're tired of the injustices. They are themselves 24/7 and because of that they're callously targeted by an oppressive system day in and day out. How can you seriously equate the two and treat it as if they don't have any major difference??

We need major criminal justice reform in America and defunding of the police across the board to ever hope to stop the problem of police brutality that's been going on for decades. The system is broken and has been broken for far too long.

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." - Desmond Tutu

You can't, as a white person, decide how black and brown people are supposed to act when their family members are being murdered in cold blood. That's just not how it works. The same way a straight cis person can't decide when and how it's appropriate for queer people to protest the injustices and murder of their own. What do you think happened at Stonewall?? What do you think happened when black people demanded not to be property?? Do you think they just held hands with the slave owners and the KKK and sang Kumbaya until they felt guilty and everything was solved?? It is never when the oppressor is comfortable with change that actual change happens, because they are never going to be comfortable, change has to be demanded by the people. From what you're saying, if you were alive back then you'd describe the slaves as extremists because they didn't take your self described "proper route"???

In our constitution it says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

The current system of governance has never appropriately and fairly secured these unalienable rights for black people in this country. EVERY. SINGLE. INSTITUTION. Whether it's housing, education, the crimal justice system, etc. has systematically, overtly and covertly, targeted black and brown people in America for centuries. Until there's justice there can never truly be any peace.

In response to the death of Martin Luther King Jr, 110 American cities started rioting. After the 6th day of riots, the Civil Rights Act of 1968 was passed. Note that.

— Toni Harris ✨ (@ToniHarris) May 31, 2020

Here is a gift to white people who insist they know what Martin Luther King Jr. would have said.

A thread

— Michael Harriot (@michaelharriot) June 1, 2020