Quantcast
The Official US Politics OT

Forums - Politics Discussion - The Official US Politics OT

the-pi-guy said:
EricHiggin said:

Why would I legitimately ask if there was nobody around who understood the Earth was round, why didn't they understand it was round? Obviously there would need to be some people around who understood for it to make any sense. A minuscule minority of people who were laughed at, shunned, jailed, and killed because of their 'outrageous' suggestions. Two different understandings at once apparently was unacceptable, yet necessary. So did the flat Earthers all suffer from DK back then?

I have no idea what you're talking about here. 

A minuscule minority of people who were laughed at, shunned, jailed, and killed because of their 'outrageous' suggestions. => who are you talking about?

So did the flat Earthers all suffer from DK back then? => I have no idea what time frame you are talking about.  

If you can't follow this conversation point there's no point in continuing.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

Around the Network
EricHiggin said:
SpokenTruth said:

This is twice you've proven that you don't fully grasp what the Dunning-Kruger effect is.  I'll explain it in math terms.

Imagine a given subject has 100 units of data to possibly know.  Those on the lower end of the D-K scale who know 5 units of data but are unaware the remaining 95 exist would inaccurately claim their percentage of overall knowledge on that subject is higher than it truly it.  These people often presume there is only 20 units, for example, and would therefore claim they know 25% of all there is to know on the topic when in fact it's just 5%.

On the other end of the D-K effect, those who know 20 units of data and are aware there is still much more to learn will often claim they know 10% of the topic despite actually knowing 20%.

It's a measure of how much they believe that their knowledge comprises all there is to know. Or, better stated, the meta-cognition of personal knowledge.

And yes, it makes a sound.  Sound is the mechanical oscillation of pressure waves through a medium and exists irrespective of a receptive audience.

Thanks for answering the question. It explains everything.

The correct answer is nobody can know for sure unless it can be directly measured and understood.

Ever heard of Schrodingers cat?

Are you really trying to bring in quantum mechanics and superposition to a discussion about meta-cognition?



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

the-pi-guy said:
EricHiggin said:

Thanks for answering the question. It explains everything.

The correct answer is nobody can know for sure unless it can be directly measured and understood.

Ever heard of Schrodingers cat?

The weirdness of Quantum Mechanics has little bearing on what we observe on the large scale.  

I assure you, the Moon is still  there even when no one is looking at it.  

Just like how in the time of flat Earth the overwhelming majority of people would assure you that the Earth was indeed flat. So much so they just might throw you in jail or kill you for not believing them?



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

Thanks for answering the question. It explains everything.

The correct answer is nobody can know for sure unless it can be directly measured and understood.

Ever heard of Schrodingers cat?

Are you really trying to bring in quantum mechanics and superposition to a discussion about meta-cognition?

You're the one who answered the question when I clearly stated it didn't need to be answered because it was quite off topic.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

EricHiggin said:
the-pi-guy said:

The weirdness of Quantum Mechanics has little bearing on what we observe on the large scale.  

I assure you, the Moon is still  there even when no one is looking at it.  

Just like how in the time of flat Earth the overwhelming majority of people would assure you that the Earth was indeed flat. So much so they just might throw you in jail or kill you for not believing them?

The world was known to be spherical for thousands of years.  Galileo wasn't thrown in jail for claiming it was spherical.  Christopher Columbus and all his contemporaries knew the Earth was spherical.  
It's a myth that people thought the Earth was flat until Columbus.  

Galileo was thrown in jail for trying to mix his religious beliefs with his scientific reasoning.  

But sure, let's go with that. 

In an age, where only a few people know the Earth is moving, you're wondering where the DK effect is.  

If most of the people who studied the Earth knew it was moving and everyone else thought it was wrong, then the people would be an example of the DK effect.  

Someone can know something that an expert doesn't, but it isn't likely that someone would know something that no expert knows.  



Around the Network
EricHiggin said:
SpokenTruth said:

Are you really trying to bring in quantum mechanics and superposition to a discussion about meta-cognition?

You're the one who answered the question when I clearly stated it didn't need to be answered because it was quite off topic.

You asked a question about sound and then...

Wait....you brought up Schrodinger's Cat as some weird metaphor about sound - whether it exists or not without anyone to hear it?

What the...? It's like Poe's Law showed up with Schrodinger's Cat to a party to troll everyone, and Heisenberg wasn't sure if he was coming or going but it was all relative to Einstein. 

I'm done.

Back to US politics.

Last edited by SpokenTruth - on 17 April 2019

Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

the-pi-guy said:
EricHiggin said:

Just like how in the time of flat Earth the overwhelming majority of people would assure you that the Earth was indeed flat. So much so they just might throw you in jail or kill you for not believing them?

The world was known to be spherical for thousands of years.  Galileo wasn't thrown in jail for claiming it was spherical.  Christopher Columbus and all his contemporaries knew the Earth was spherical.  
It's a myth that people thought the Earth was flat until Columbus.  

Galileo was thrown in jail for trying to mix his religious beliefs with his scientific reasoning.  

But sure, let's go with that. 

In an age, where only a few people know the Earth is moving, you're wondering where the DK effect is.  

If most of the people who studied the Earth knew it was moving and everyone else thought it was wrong, then the people would be an example of the DK effect.  

Someone can know something that an expert doesn't, but it isn't likely that someone would know something that no expert knows.  

People figure things out all the time who aren't experts. Lot's of those things even end up lost to time. Being an expert may make it more likely you should be able to come up with certain answers or new idea's, but there's no guarantee's. Especially with the communication system today. People who end up better than many others who sat at home and learned on the internet instead of spending years in school and loads of cash. Who's the smart one there? Don't the experts say you really need more education with the 'right' people teaching and in the proper environment?

Also, who deems experts, experts? Many times you have to prove many things before you're considered an expert, but if you were right the entire time, shouldn't you have been an expert from the beginning? If those experts didn't know you were right, why are they considered the experts?

Since others seem so sure Trump suffers from DK, and DK points out that those type of people may very well be the one's who aren't aware their DK'd, don't you think it's possible that it's all true? Maybe everyone in the conversation could possibly effected to some degree?

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

You're the one who answered the question when I clearly stated it didn't need to be answered because it was quite off topic.

You asked a question about sound and then...

Wait....you brought up Schrodinger's Cat as some weird metaphor about sound - whether it exists or not without anyone to hear it?

What the...? It's like Poe's Law showed up with Schrodinger's Cat to a party to troll everyone, and Heisenberg wasn't sure if he was coming or going but it was all relative to Einstein. 

I'm done.

Back to US politics.

Ya. Is the cat dead or not? If only there was a device in the concealed box that could capture and analyze its heartbeat and brainwaves. Guess we just have to open it up and see to know for sure. 

I agree.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

Why would I legitimately ask if there was nobody around who understood the Earth was round, why didn't they understand it was round? Obviously there would need to be some people around who understood for it to make any sense. A minuscule minority of people who were laughed at, shunned, jailed, and killed because of their 'outrageous' suggestions. Two different understandings at once apparently was unacceptable, yet necessary. So did the flat Earthers all suffer from DK back then?

If a tree falls in the woods and nothing that can measure it's effects is within range to capture and analyze it, does it make a sound? (You can answer this if you like but it's not a serious question)

This is twice you've proven that you don't fully grasp what the Dunning-Kruger effect is.  I'll explain it in math terms.

Imagine a given subject has 100 units of data to possibly know.  Those on the lower end of the D-K scale who know 5 units of data but are unaware the remaining 95 exist would inaccurately claim their percentage of overall knowledge on that subject is higher than it truly it.  These people often presume there is only 20 units, for example, and would therefore claim they know 25% of all there is to know on the topic when in fact it's just 5%.

On the other end of the D-K effect, those who know 20 units of data and are aware there is still much more to learn will often claim they know 10% of the topic despite actually knowing 20%.

It's a measure of how much they believe that their knowledge comprises all there is to know. Or, better stated, the meta-cognition of personal knowledge.

And yes, it makes a sound.  Sound is the mechanical oscillation of pressure waves through a medium and exists irrespective of a receptive audience.

I feel like that analogy could be improved a bit. It doesn't capture that the more you understand the data, the more you understand the amount that you've yet to understand. I would say it's more like a maze with an unknown number of rooms (it's 100, but people at the start don't know that) and from the entrance you can see 5 of them and don't even know it's a maze yet, so from the entrance you think you can guess the basic path to the other side, you think it's just a simple path. Only when you actually walk to the 5th visible room do you actually see there are tons of branching paths, and realize there's probably upwards of 50 and it'll be quite a task to find your way to the other side.

As for the tree in a forest question, it depends on how you understand the word sound in that context. If a tree falls in the forest, obviously it makes sound waves, but without an observer, there is no phenomenological sound. In the latter sense of the word sound, it's a similar question to "is your red the same as my red?" in that it speaks of the hearing experience of something, not the physical manifestation that brings about that experience. When we say that something "made a sound" we don't generally mean that sound waves were emitted from it, we mean the actual experience of that sound when we hear it. Sound is not the mechanical oscillation of pressure waves through a medium. Sound is experienced by the mind, because of mechanical oscillations of pressure waves happening to hit our eardrum. As such, those mechanical oscillations would exist irrespective of an observer, but the sound would not. If you wish to have a discussion about phenomenology, however, I think it would be best to take it to PMs, before we're accused of being off topic in the politics thread.



the-pi-guy said:

EricHiggin said:

How did the Trump name alone become worth so much if it's organization has always been full of low standards people? Isn't that why every restaurant wants to have the golden arches on their roof?

Trump didn't build the company with his two bare hands.  
His dad started the company.  

Just to add to this point, Donald Trump had an allowance from his dad since he was a baby - a tiny little sum of 200 grand per year. He was already millionaire before he hit puberty due to this. Oh, and his "very small sum" of 1 million loan from his dad (which an everyman like us wouldn't get from any bank under any circumstances even if we could build the Perpetuum Mobile and make billions with it)? Try 413 Millions! Add to this the fact that he inherited the company and heaps of money from his father, and he probably just turned 10 Billions into 10 Billions, not 1 Million into 10 Billions.



the-pi-guy said:
EricHiggin said:

Just like how in the time of flat Earth the overwhelming majority of people would assure you that the Earth was indeed flat. So much so they just might throw you in jail or kill you for not believing them?

The world was known to be spherical for thousands of years.  Galileo wasn't thrown in jail for claiming it was spherical.  Christopher Columbus and all his contemporaries knew the Earth was spherical.  
It's a myth that people thought the Earth was flat until Columbus.  

Galileo was thrown in jail for trying to mix his religious beliefs with his scientific reasoning.  

But sure, let's go with that. 

Actually, he got thrown  into jail because he insulted the pope, who was supporting him until then, by comparing him to a moron. Of course the church wanted to have exactly none of it.

The second part is, that he dismissed that the earth would be in the center of the universe (well, what was known back then, which is just most of the solar system plus the stars), but rather the Sun. While correct (and the church accepted it shortly after), the way he proclaimed it was so much in-your-face that they couldn't stand him anymore.

But yes, the fac that the earth was round was known since biblical times. What's more, the size of the earth was also known. This is why Columbus had massive problems to find someone to finance his expedition: Imagine sailing to Japan from Europe by going westwards, you'd have to sail around more than half the globe. Had America not been in the way, they would all have died of hunger long before they reached their destination.

P.S. Even without Columbus's trip, the discovery of the continent wouldn't have waited long - just 8 years later the Portuguese discovered Brazil, also by accident (due to a sea maneuver called a volta do mar).