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SpokenTruth said:
JRPGfan said:

He was caught lieing about getting a blow job, by a willing partisipant, because of shame and fear of it wrecking his marrage.
Big deal, Trump told millions of lies hes got caught in.

Trump supposedly got caught with proof, of meddleing in elections (twice) and is not going to be convicted by anyone.
Remember his joke, about how he could walk down the street and shoot someone, and no one would care? nothing would happend.
Turns out thats real,.... he appears to be above the law.

While true, that's actually not what his charges were for his impeachment.  It was perjury and........obstruction of justice.

Yeah but his perjury was "the lie" about the blow job.... same with the Obstruction of justice thingy right?

Meanwhile Trump did something much more serious than tell a white lie about a blowjob.
Highly likely Trump actually meddled in elections, cheating the system from being a fair win.... not once, but now twice.
And nothing is going to happend to him, he wont even have to sit down for any questions.

Trump also warps truth and tells more lies than any other president before him, and about much more serious matters.
Nobody in the US seemingly cares, its becomes so common, its just shrugged off and laught at, "oh you how trump is".



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EricHiggin said:

Well I wasn't aware that using leverage was a crime. If that's the case then there's a ton of people in trouble. Was Trump supposed to confirm the aid before this call?

Seems like I wasn't the only one 'ignoring' certain points because 'I didn't like them'.

I still haven't seen any quotes as to what Trump said that would be considered worthy of a crime. Is there more than one version of the transcript?

Yes, using leverage for your OWN personal gain is a crime if you hold a government position.  Just maybe you should pay more attention to why its a crime for a US president or anyone in a government position to use leverage for personal gain is a crime.  I do not know what you do for a living but I usually have to work on government contracts and I can tell you the huge document I have to sign in acknowledgment on these policies which in violation is a quick and instant trip to the unemployment office.

Let me break this down for you and just maybe you might see the light.  I will use one of your tools as an example.

Lets say you are a private contractor and you go to a government official looking to do a project.  You ask the head of the division for the contract and he/she tells you in order to get the contract, you must do him/her a favor.  This favor involves you doing a contract for that person home for free or discount.

Now lets put that same scenario in perspective of what Trump did.  A foreign leader who is expecting aid from the US gets on the call with the US president.  The foreign leader ask about the aid and the US president who just withheld that aid which was already approved ask the foreign leader for a PERSONAL favor.  I can tell you from personal experience, everyone involved would be in danger.  The hint of quid pro quo in at the highest level of government which is the President office is bad news.  It totally undermines the position that the president can be bought or that personal favors can gain you access to government funds.



JRPGfan said:
SpokenTruth said:

Bill Clinton was impeached but not convicted.

He was caught lieing about getting a blow job, by a willing partisipant, because of shame and fear of it wrecking his marrage.
Big deal, Trump told millions of lies hes got caught in.

Trump supposedly got caught with proof, of meddleing in elections (twice) and is not going to be convicted by anyone.
Remember his joke, about how he could walk down the street and shoot someone, and no one would care? nothing would happend.
Turns out thats real,.... he appears to be above the law.

Using public money to bribe foreign nations to help you in your next election is a criminally jerkish move.

So in short: Bill Clinton got caught living out a sexual fantasy, while Trump got caught being a crooked jackoff.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

I don't really see how Bill Clinton has anything at all to do with Trump's current predicament, but let's not downplay his actions as just some sexual fantasy.

Bill Clinton has been accused of sexual harassment (including rape) by several individuals. Monica Lewinsky has been permanently damaged by the events of this "consensual" affair, which likely wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for Bill Clinton's position of authority.

Let's just...stop comparing or even downplaying the Bill Clinton situation. It's an entirely different ordeal.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

I have to say, I love Rudy. The man knows when the crap has hit the wall and its time to save his own neck. As Rudy stated before this is all done and over with, he will be the Hero of this saga. Rudy is going to roll just about anyone he can into this mess. One of my favorite quotes I read on this happiness "Hire a clown, get a circus". This quote speaks volumes on Trump administration so far.



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Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

Well I wasn't aware that using leverage was a crime. If that's the case then there's a ton of people in trouble. Was Trump supposed to confirm the aid before this call?

Seems like I wasn't the only one 'ignoring' certain points because 'I didn't like them'.

I still haven't seen any quotes as to what Trump said that would be considered worthy of a crime. Is there more than one version of the transcript?

Yes, using leverage for your OWN personal gain is a crime if you hold a government position.  Just maybe you should pay more attention to why its a crime for a US president or anyone in a government position to use leverage for personal gain is a crime.  I do not know what you do for a living but I usually have to work on government contracts and I can tell you the huge document I have to sign in acknowledgment on these policies which in violation is a quick and instant trip to the unemployment office.

Let me break this down for you and just maybe you might see the light.  I will use one of your tools as an example.

Lets say you are a private contractor and you go to a government official looking to do a project.  You ask the head of the division for the contract and he/she tells you in order to get the contract, you must do him/her a favor.  This favor involves you doing a contract for that person home for free or discount.

Now lets put that same scenario in perspective of what Trump did.  A foreign leader who is expecting aid from the US gets on the call with the US president.  The foreign leader ask about the aid and the US president who just withheld that aid which was already approved ask the foreign leader for a PERSONAL favor.  I can tell you from personal experience, everyone involved would be in danger.  The hint of quid pro quo in at the highest level of government which is the President office is bad news.  It totally undermines the position that the president can be bought or that personal favors can gain you access to government funds.

So when the Dems do it, and brag about it, it's ok, but when Trump does it, it's unacceptable?

If crimes or wrongdoing happened in Ukraine, that may have involved American's, possibly politicians, the people shouldn't know? What about Russia?



EricHiggin said:

So when the Dems do it, and brag about it, it's ok, but when Trump does it, it's unacceptable?

If crimes or wrongdoing happened in Ukraine, that may have involved American's, possibly politicians, the people shouldn't know? What about Russia?

We already went over this.

You had no argument then. You appear to still have no argument now.

The ousting of the Ukrainian prosecutor was entirely in line with international opinion, and there is no evidence that the motive on Biden's part was personal gain considering the fact that the company that Hunter Biden was involved with, was not under active investigation and the Prosecutor that was ousted was one of the main roadblocks to international investigations.


You have no argument.



sundin13 said:
EricHiggin said:

So when the Dems do it, and brag about it, it's ok, but when Trump does it, it's unacceptable?

If crimes or wrongdoing happened in Ukraine, that may have involved American's, possibly politicians, the people shouldn't know? What about Russia?

We already went over this.

You had no argument then. You appear to still have no argument now.

The ousting of the Ukrainian prosecutor was entirely in line with international opinion, and there is no evidence that the motive on Biden's part was personal gain considering the fact that the company that Hunter Biden was involved with, was not under active investigation and the Prosecutor that was ousted was one of the main roadblocks to international investigations.


You have no argument.

If a bunch of other people or countries agree doing bad things is ok, then no point in arguing, just go along with it? Could other countries be forced to agree due to leverage from a superpower?

There's no proof, since the original prosecutor was ousted due to leverage, used by none other than Biden, only to be replaced by someone that Biden feels is right for the job? Man it's nice when things fall into place like that. Thank God for fate I guess?

You realize Trump said nothing illegal in his call correct? I don't even need an argument since you don't have one because there's nothing to defend.



SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

So when the Dems do it, and brag about it, it's ok, but when Trump does it, it's unacceptable?

If crimes or wrongdoing happened in Ukraine, that may have involved American's, possibly politicians, the people shouldn't know? What about Russia?

When Dems do what exactly?


The $1 billion that Biden is referencing was part of a larger international push to fight corruption in Ukraine. The IMF threatened to withhold $40 billion on top of the $1.7 billion they were already holding out on.

Further, there was no underlying personal or political gain from it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the difference. This is where the legal and ethical problems come in.

Where did Joe Biden request anything from the Ukrainians that would benefit him personally or politically?

If you cannot answer that question with a specific instance, stop.

EricHiggin said:
sundin13 said:

We already went over this.

You had no argument then. You appear to still have no argument now.

The ousting of the Ukrainian prosecutor was entirely in line with international opinion, and there is no evidence that the motive on Biden's part was personal gain considering the fact that the company that Hunter Biden was involved with, was not under active investigation and the Prosecutor that was ousted was one of the main roadblocks to international investigations.


You have no argument.

If a bunch of other people or countries agree doing bad things is ok, then no point in arguing, just go along with it? Could other countries be forced to agree due to leverage from a superpower?

There's no proof, since the original prosecutor was ousted due to leverage, used by none other than Biden, only to be replaced by someone that Biden feels is right for the job? Man it's nice when things fall into place like that. Thank God for fate I guess?

You realize Trump said nothing illegal in his call correct? I don't even need an argument since you don't have one because there's nothing to defend.

"If you cannot answer that question with a specific instance, stop", said every sane liberal, independent, and conservative American, and Earthling, when it comes to the Russia investigation.



EricHiggin said:

If a bunch of other people or countries agree doing bad things is ok, then no point in arguing, just go along with it? Could other countries be forced to agree due to leverage from a superpower?

There's no proof, since the original prosecutor was ousted due to leverage, used by none other than Biden, only to be replaced by someone that Biden feels is right for the job? Man it's nice when things fall into place like that. Thank God for fate I guess?

Why is it wrong to oust an incredibly corrupt prosecutor who is internationally acknowledged as being incredibly corrupt? What is wrong about that? If your argument is that Biden's actions were wrong because the prosecutor was a great 10/10 guy who did nothing wrong, you would be disagreeing with basically the entire world and I think you will have to do at least a little bit to actually convince anyone of that point. However, even if you were able to prove the entire international community wrong, this man who you think was working tirelessly to bring down Hunter Biden....wasn't. Again, he was actually standing in the way of international investigations, preventing the company Hunter Biden was involved with from being investigated, and just recently, this prosecutor stated that he is not aware of any possible violation of Ukrainian law by Joe or Hunter Biden.

There is nothing wrong with the United States using its economic leverage to impact foreign governments. That is the entire purpose of sanctions (and foreign policy in general). The problem comes when instead of acting in the interests of the county, you begin to act in the interest of yourself. Asking for a hit job on a political opponent is extremely corrupt. Asking for a government to remove a corrupt prosecutor is not.

Your entire argument is based on a flawed rationality, to the very core. There is nothing there.