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Jaicee said:
tsogud said:

Maybe it feels that way because maybe *GASP* you're wrong in your conclusion??? No one that I saw dismissed you as though you said nothing. What I saw is that you came in with a radical idea and people were trying to figure out where you were coming from and were debating your conclusion you set forward because most here feel legalization and legislation is the way to deal with these issues. 

That last paragraph was really sexist and incredibly ignorant of what was said by many of the people here. It's like you choose to not see what is being said and instead carry on with your conclusion.

I could always be wrong I guess, but I remain decidedly unconvinced, much as you remain convinced in your correctness.

Questions like prostitution are largely gendered issues. Does one really not expect me to reach any gendered conclusions or have any gendered observations here?

As I have already pointed out, believing that prostitution is bad for women is NOT a "radical idea", it's the view of most of the world's population most likely. I've provided some survey data to indicate that.

You can have a gendered observation but it crosses a line when you make a sexist generalization.

Sis. No one argued the bolded. It is bad. We were arguing your proposed solutions to the issues. Currently it's really bad but what will make it worse is to criminalize it and make it illegal. To address the issues faced by the women involved, legalization and legislation is a completely valid way of mitigating the problem. That's what was being debated. Literally no one that I saw was saying prostitution is good for women and that the sex industry is amazing, what they said was quite the opposite.

Last edited by tsogud - 6 days ago

 

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Okay, one final aside on this topic of the sex industry. We've talked mostly about the consequences of the sex trade (prostitution, pornography, etc.) for heterosexual women, but not so much for lesbians. There was a story I was just now reading that I'd like to highlight: Google tweaks algorithm to show less porn when searching for 'lesbian' content.

The campaigners for this cause observed that "in their research, they found that only the word 'lesbian' was linked to pornographic sites, whereas searching for 'gay' or 'trans' linked to informative pages including Wikipedia, top news articles, and specialized blogs".

This is a real issue. Because lesbians are an all-female group by definition, we are sexualized way more than anyone else. The top search term on both Pornhub and YouPorn is, in fact, 'lesbian'. To judge by the leading search results one encounters (a large percentage of which seem to involve things like penetration with penile-shaped objects), one seriously doubts that it's mainly lesbians who are doing these searches. Even gay men sometimes participate in the sexual objectification of lesbians (example).

The consequences of people viewing lesbians more as entertainment than as people can get very real. To highlight a high-profile example of what I mean that made global headlines earlier this year, there was group of male teenagers who approached a lesbian couple on a bus in London and, on learning of their sexual orientation, demanded that they kiss for the group. When the couple refused, they were beaten and had to be hospitalized. Likewise, just the other weekend, a lesbian couple was physically attacked at Amsterdam Pride after refusing the advances of two men. In these sorts of ways, we can see how pornography fosters a dangerous culture of male entitlement to women, and not just the straight or even bi ones. So yeah, I'm very glad that Google has recently tweaked their algorithm for the term 'lesbian' to produce informative results comparable to what appears when one searches for 'gay' or 'trans'.

Just wanted to posit that as a final thought.

Last edited by Jaicee - 6 days ago

Jaicee said:

Okay, one final aside on this topic of the sex industry. We've talked mostly about the consequences of the sex trade (prostitution, pornography, etc.) for heterosexual women, but not so much for lesbians. There was a story I was just now reading that I'd like to highlight: Google tweaks algorithm to show less porn when searching for 'lesbian' content.

The campaigners for this cause observed that "in their research, they found that only the word 'lesbian' was linked to pornographic sites, whereas searching for 'gay' or 'trans' linked to informative pages including Wikipedia, top news articles, and specialized blogs".

This is a real issue. Because lesbians are the only all-female group in the queer community, we are sexualized way more than anyone else. The top search term on both Pornhub and YouPorn is, in fact, been 'lesbian'. To judge by the leading search results one encounters (most of which seem to involve things like penetration with penile-shaped objects), one seriously doubts that it's mainly lesbians who are doing these searches. Even gay men sometimes participate in the sexual objectification of lesbians (example).

The consequences of people viewing lesbians more as entertainment than as people can get very real. To highlight a high-profile example of what I mean that made global headlines earlier this year, there was group of male teenagers who approached a lesbian couple on a bus in London and, on learning of their sexual orientation, demanded that they kiss for the group. When the couple refused, they were beaten and had to be hospitalized. Likewise, just the other weekend, a lesbian couple was physically attacked at Amsterdam Pride after refusing the advances of two men. In these sorts of ways, we can see how pornography fosters a dangerous culture of male entitlement to women, and not just the straight ones. So yeah, I'm very glad that Google has recently tweaked their algorithm for the term 'lesbian' to produce informative results comparable to what appears when one searches for 'gay' or 'trans'.

Just wanted to posit that as a final thought.

Yeah thank you for that. This should be made more aware, the type of sexism and objectification of lesbians isn't brought up much. Even straight women can engage/promote this problem.

I'd also like to point out that the conversation has been centered on cis white women as well and hasn't touched on the unique difficulties transwomen/transmen/gay men have and the hardships poc have in these fields.

These things are complex and raising awareness about them helps tremendously with the cause.

Last edited by tsogud - 6 days ago

 

the-pi-guy said:
Jaicee said:

That's not how it works at all. They can stop at any time.  That's legally how it works.  

If you're in the middle of sex, you are free to leave at any time.  

Someone's consent is only given in the moment.  And it can be taken away at any moment.  

I'm sorry, but this is just incredibly dissociated from reality. Most women in the world can't walk away in the middle of consensual sex... let alone prostitutes.

It's like saying drug dealers and loan sharks will abide to laws of contracts and obligations.

Any sociologist and psychologist working in the field could tell you that, so I'm not talking about any feminist theory of rape culture here.



 

 

 

 

 

Even though I don't agree with all of Jaicee's points she's right about prostitution being bad for woman. For someone to turn to prostitution something must have gone wrong in their life and as a prostitute they're more exposed to an abuse lifestyle.



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haxxiy said:
the-pi-guy said:

That's not how it works at all. They can stop at any time.  That's legally how it works.  

If you're in the middle of sex, you are free to leave at any time.  

Someone's consent is only given in the moment.  And it can be taken away at any moment.  

I'm sorry, but this is just incredibly dissociated from reality. Most women in the world can't walk away in the middle of consensual sex... let alone prostitutes.

It's like saying drug dealers and loan sharks will abide to laws of contracts and obligations.

Any sociologist and psychologist working in the field could tell you that, so I'm not talking about any feminist theory of rape culture here.

>I'm sorry, but this is just incredibly dissociated from reality. 

I don't mean that it's an easy thing to do.  Just that it's the legality of it.  If a woman isn't allowed to stop when she wants, it becomes rape.  

Unfortunately there is a lot wrong with our justice system that make it unlikely that rape would be convicted. 



haxxiy said:
the-pi-guy said:

That's not how it works at all. They can stop at any time.  That's legally how it works.  

If you're in the middle of sex, you are free to leave at any time.  

Someone's consent is only given in the moment.  And it can be taken away at any moment.  

I'm sorry, but this is just incredibly dissociated from reality. Most women in the world can't walk away in the middle of consensual sex... let alone prostitutes.

It's like saying drug dealers and loan sharks will abide to laws of contracts and obligations.

Any sociologist and psychologist working in the field could tell you that, so I'm not talking about any feminist theory of rape culture here.

There have been way to many men finding themselves in prison who believe that once things get started they are free to continue until they are satisfied. I do know about anyone else but the first thing I taught my older son before heading into high school and again before going to college.  If a woman says no at any time during sex, you get up and leave.  Its was always foolish for men to believe they have unfettered access to continue sex if a woman says no.  To many guys during college found out that this leads to you pleading for your life in court and hoping the judge and your peers see it your way.



the-pi-guy said:
haxxiy said:

I'm sorry, but this is just incredibly dissociated from reality. Most women in the world can't walk away in the middle of consensual sex... let alone prostitutes.

It's like saying drug dealers and loan sharks will abide to laws of contracts and obligations.

Any sociologist and psychologist working in the field could tell you that, so I'm not talking about any feminist theory of rape culture here.

>I'm sorry, but this is just incredibly dissociated from reality. 

I don't mean that it's an easy thing to do.  Just that it's the legality of it.  If a woman isn't allowed to stop when she wants, it becomes rape.  

Unfortunately there is a lot wrong with our justice system that make it unlikely that rape would be convicted. 

Ask Mike Tyson.  Trust you me, men do get convicted over this stuff and I have witness a few incidents when I was in college.



Person - An individual should be able to choose where to work no matter the conditions, however much that earns them.
People - Wrong. The Gov must force basic standards and wages that are outrageously high because individuals are weak and/or misguided.

Person - The Gov shouldn't allow an individual to sell their body as work because they are weak and/or misguided.
People - Wrong. An individual should be able to choose where to work no matter the conditions, however much that earns them.

Person - WTF?



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

So much for boycotting Trump donors. -_-

Rich people are shit-eating parasites who are fucking over the rest of us, and there's nothing we can do about it.



Some days I just blow up.