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MrWayne said:
Jaicee said:

1)To your first point, whenever you have to recourse to "not all X's..." as an argument, you are clearly employing a strawman. You're highlighting possible rare exceptional cases as though they were the rule. As I have pointed out, 70 to 90% of prostituted women are sexual abuse survivors.

2)To your second point (the one about the nature of capitalism), there are some problems that are intrinsic to capitalist economics (which I'm also not a big fan of for those who haven't noticed), I agree, BUT, as I was pointing out to coolbeans, there is handing a random stranger a burger through a drive-through window and then there is having sex with them on their terms and their terms only. Those are very different things that carry radically different volumes of mental-emotional weight. Can you at least recognize that much?

1)Can you link me a study to those numbers? I'm not employing a strawman most Johns aren't sexually assaulting or raping their prostitutes they stick to what was agreed upon before the sex. Why should these people be criminalised.

2)that's the point, it's not "their terms and their terms only", law in germany says that prostitutes can stop with sex when ever they want.

No he cannot link you to such a study because pretty much his whole stance is just his opinion and made up number to justify his stance.  I personally am not a fan of prostitution but during my younger days I knew a lot of women who worked in the trade and none of them were sexually abused, raped or any such thing.  They worked the trade because it paid better than sitting at a desk.  Interesting enough a lot of them were also lesbians as well but that's another story.



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Machiavellian said:
MrWayne said:

1)Can you link me a study to those numbers? I'm not employing a strawman most Johns aren't sexually assaulting or raping their prostitutes they stick to what was agreed upon before the sex. Why should these people be criminalised.

2)that's the point, it's not "their terms and their terms only", law in germany says that prostitutes can stop with sex when ever they want.

No he cannot link you to such a study because pretty much his whole stance is just his opinion and made up number to justify his stance.  I personally am not a fan of prostitution but during my younger days I knew a lot of women who worked in the trade and none of them were sexually abused, raped or any such thing.  They worked the trade because it paid better than sitting at a desk.  Interesting enough a lot of them were also lesbians as well but that's another story.

This isn't really necessary...

If you would just google it real quick, you would find unanimous support among researchers for the idea that previous abuse is very common among prostitutes, and that goes equally for childhood sexual abuse.

Here is one article which indicates 60% of the study population were sexually abused as a child: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0145213481900508

Here is another that gives the number as 57% for child sexual abuse: http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Farley%26Barkan%201998.pdf

It is less easy to find results that include all sexual abuse (but I'm sure you could do it if you tried) and not just childhood sexual abuse, but it isn't hard to see how such numbers would be realistic...

Lets keep thing civil, now.



Jaicee said:
tsogud said:

Well on the topic of anal sex; women can and do achieve orgasm from consensual anal sex. The caveat is that the person doing the penetration needs to know how to perform it properly (sadly most straight cis men don't) and the receiver needs to be knowledgeable enough about their own body to know if it's right for them. Some people just can't do anal due to personal or medical reasons. Men and Women both weren't "designed" to have anal sex, we've just come to figure out that it is another way of having a fulfilling orgasm for both sexes. Anal sex does hurt but it hurts for anybody, especially if it's your first time, it's just the way the anus works but proper knowledge and execution minimizes discomfort/pain and it's perfectly safe to perform. It seems you have some misconceptions of anal sex, it's just one of numerous ways different individuals derive pleasure.

Being an inter-sectional feminist I do agree with most, if not all, of your views but your conclusion to outright ban and outlaw these practices and criminalize these individuals is where you lose me and it's one of the reasons I don't subscribe to your brand of feminism. There are A LOT of wrongs with these practices/industries, some of which you have so eloquently explained, but the fact of the matter is that if we made these things illegal, it will only hurt the women involved. Really, the only way forward that I can see is to legalize and regulate it so we can give the care these women deserve so they have a better standard of living.

I would like to know what you think is the best way to achieve the outlawing of these industries and practices and what should be done with the displaced women that were involved? I'm genuinely curious.

The main effect of legalizing the prostitution of women is and will always be to simply make it more common, not better. While we shouldn't penalize women for working in prostitution, purchasing sex from someone is not principally different from raping them. It really isn't. That's making someone have sex with you who almost certainly wouldn't otherwise, and mind you strictly on their terms at that. That simply cannot be allowed in my book.

As to what should be done with those who are displaced, robust exit support services that would offer temporary accommodation, help in applying for crisis loans or disability benefits, counseling, advocacy, and advice are required to help women successfully transition out of the sex industry and into other fields of work.

(Concerning anal sex, what I have spoken to is the rule of how it is experienced. I won't get any popularity points for pointing this out, but the simple truth of the matter is that the nature of authentic female sexual pleasure tends toward the unfashionably vanilla. And no, I'm not for outlawing anal sex or what have you. I pointed out a connection it's growing commonality and the proliferation of online pornography as part of my larger argument against pornography as an institution and proposed that online pornography should be blocked.)

Your view of prostitution and legalization are somewhat archaic. The legalization of something doesn't really make it more common, it just makes it so we can control the quality of life for the women. I totally understand where you're coming from when you say it's similar to rape, especially now in America because there's little effective legislation for it. Ultimately though it's not rape, one's a consensual transaction and the other is a non-consenual violent attack. The ways we can improve the industry to transform it into something that is not so similar to rape is through legalization and legislation. It'll help the women to feel empowered to go to the police when something is wrong instead of hiding due to fear of repercussions.

I like your plan on the exit support from the industry, we really need robust exit support services now tbh.

Yeah, if you're looking for "authentic" sexual pleasure, you wouldn't do anal if you're male or female, you'd just do plain vanilla sex. Anal is just another way to experience an orgasm for both sexes and both sexes will experience pain if not done properly and sometimes even when it is done properly. I'm not about shaming someone who enjoys vanilla sex, if that's what you want and like you do you boo but there are other ways to have an orgasm and sometimes, depending on the person, it can be even more intense.

My view is that in a perfect world we wouldn't have prostitution and all these problems we've been talking about but the sad truth of the matter is that prostitution is here and no matter how hard we try, it won't go away because humans will find a way to do anything, legal or illegal. So the best course of action is to control the quality of life through legislation and help curb the issues these women face and have a higher level of accountability in these industries to uphold a good, healthy standard for these individuals.



 

Jaicee said:
coolbeans said:

I follow you on the mental-emotional complexities; however, the base of both occupations comes back to said workers still having agency over their bodies* and deciding to agree to the transaction.  A trade of x value for y value.  A man forcing himself onto another man/woman without their consent is absolutely vile and doesn't share this key aspect with prostitution.   

*(to emphasize again: this is disregarding the uglier stories of sex trafficking to focus on the principle of this argument)

You're not getting it. My point in comparing prostitution and rape is that, once the transaction is made, the one party, for all intents and purposes, LOSES their free will, their bodily autonomy, and they DON'T typically enjoy it! I have but proposed that such a surrender should not be an option. That's not the same thing as taking away a woman's self-determination, but more like assuring it by removing the commercial factor. That's how I view it.

"...for all intents and purposes..."

You see, that's another hazy phrase you've used which I can't follow.  In today's world, it's possible for one to opt-out even after a deal's been cut.  It's not like they magically lose the ability to self-determine what to do with their body.  "Well, he did hand the $500 over so I guess I'm locked into doing this regardless."  I'm just not following this line of reasoning. 

the-pi-guy put it in a more succinct way; I just wanted to personally follow up.



sundin13 said:
Machiavellian said:

No he cannot link you to such a study because pretty much his whole stance is just his opinion and made up number to justify his stance.  I personally am not a fan of prostitution but during my younger days I knew a lot of women who worked in the trade and none of them were sexually abused, raped or any such thing.  They worked the trade because it paid better than sitting at a desk.  Interesting enough a lot of them were also lesbians as well but that's another story.

This isn't really necessary...

If you would just google it real quick, you would find unanimous support among researchers for the idea that previous abuse is very common among prostitutes, and that goes equally for childhood sexual abuse.

Here is one article which indicates 60% of the study population were sexually abused as a child: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0145213481900508

Here is another that gives the number as 57% for child sexual abuse: http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Farley%26Barkan%201998.pdf

It is less easy to find results that include all sexual abuse (but I'm sure you could do it if you tried) and not just childhood sexual abuse, but it isn't hard to see how such numbers would be realistic...

Lets keep thing civil, now.

My problem with the first link is that it gives nothing on where and how the data was gathered.  The second link is only for one city.  You do know the profession is world wide not just one city.  I would like to see something more comprehensive.  Either way, I can say I was wrong but it would be best to let the person I responded to do his own research ;)



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@Jaicee

I've read what you wrote and your provided sources but it still leaves me a bit perplexed. When I'm reading these numbers and you drawing conclusions based on them the thing that always pops into my mind is "correlation does not imply causation". It does look grim, but specifically in the cases of prostitution and porn I would like to draw a parallel to the internet and general globalization.

A lot of things got worse thanks to the internet and the ease of moving goods, people and information across the world. It makes certain crimes easier and the enforcement of law a lot harder. Yet it's a very important thing and something that is literally impossible to roll back. Crimes in porn and prostitution increased but so did overall consumption. Without having numbers to back it up something tells me that crimes related to those fields have not linearly increased with the exponential increase of consumption. Which would mean a numerical increase but a proportional decrease and overall improvement of the environment and all people involved with it.

Of course it does not excuse the higher numbers, but what would you do about it? What's the end goal here? Clearly it cannot be a complete ban on prostitution and porn. Porn is a very special case for me because the vast majority of it is made by willing performers and and even an even bigger part does not involve the actual participation of females or humans at all, i.e. art. Sex is literally too big to control because it's a big part of the lives of the majority of the world's population. The only thing I can see is a further push for policies and the spreading of awareness, which is exactly the thing that countries who did legalize prostitution are trying to do.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Jaicee said:
KLAMarine said:

"purchasing sex from someone is not principally different from raping them."

One involves getting permission, the other doesn't.

The two are different.

First of all, that depends on how consensual their prostitution is.

Secondly, my point was that there is no difference in spirit. You're making someone (most likely a rape survivor who doesn't know better) have sex with you who almost certainly wouldn't otherwise, and mind you strictly on their terms at that. If the other person has to dissociate in order to weather the experience, clearly they are miserable. That's not what sex is supposed to be like.

Your view on "what sex is supposed to be like" is not the be-all, end-all that everyone else should be bound by. Sex can mean many different things to many different people, it's in reality not some Hollywood-ized romanticized version either. I've read many articles where they say it's just not that big of a deal and they like the life style it affords them and it's easier than working a regular 9-to-5 job. 

Most people are miserable at their jobs. You think the person who works as a janitor likes cleaning toilets or the maid likes cleaning puke off bed sheets at a hotel? Even people working office jobs that are driving them to exhaustion.

No they don't. They do it for pay, and I imagine they'd rather be thinking about something else than cleaning a toilet, but it isn't slavery to pay someone to do that. 

If it's legal it's something that's much easier to give the worker's rights. They get mandatory regular check ins from police and health professionals to make sure there is no coercion going on and that there's always access to a safety net when ever they want it. 

They can choose to work with only a select few clients they are comfortable with as well much more easily in a legal setting. It's one of those things where making it illegal makes sexual puritans feel better about themselves, but it actually doesn't really help any of the people who choose to work in that profession. Making it illegal forces them to have to take greater risks to procure clients, work with people they may otherwise not choose to, have to go to locations they are not comfortable with which they wouldn't have to in a legal setting, and takes away law enforcement/health resources that are easily available in a regulated, legal environment. 

Your points made earlier in the thread about Amsterdam are also disingenuous, many workers there do favor a proposal to ban "tours" but those are like ridiculous tour groups/family groups/groups of seniors that want to walk around for morbid curiosity. The overwhelming majority of the workers are against banning the RLD entirely and are protesting the mayor's overall plans and have been quite vocal on that, but conveniently of course the actual opinions/voices of the people working don't get paid any heed when it doesn't fit a certain narrative. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 12 August 2019

Alright people, I've reached the conclusion that there is no point in my continuing this conversation because everyone is dug in on their positions and will not change their minds no matter what. Plus it's me against the world here and that's gotten pretty exhausting. I'm tired of writing each of you individualized essays that you're just going to dismiss as though I said nothing anyway. Everyone is ganging up on me in a way that's coming to feel self-reinforcing.

There is no point in continuing since the entire male population selflessly agrees that the sex industry is awesome and epically beneficial to women and that anyone who disagrees is a simple-minded prude.

⚠️ WARNED: Flaming  (generalization) ~ CGI

Last edited by CGI-Quality - 6 days ago

Jaicee said:

Alright people, I've reached the conclusion that there is no point in my continuing this conversation because everyone is dug in on their positions and will not change their minds no matter what. Plus it's me against the world here and that's gotten pretty exhausting. I'm tired of writing each of you individualized essays that you're just going to dismiss as though I said nothing anyway. Everyone is ganging up on me in a way that's coming to feel self-reinforcing.

There is no point in continuing since the entire male population selflessly agrees that the sex industry is awesome and epically beneficial to women and that anyone who disagrees is a simple-minded prude.

Maybe it feels that way because maybe *GASP* you're wrong in your conclusion??? No one that I saw dismissed you as though you said nothing. What I saw is that you came in with a radical idea and people were trying to figure out where you were coming from and were debating your conclusion you set forward because most here feel legalization and legislation is the way to deal with these issues. 

That last paragraph was really sexist and incredibly ignorant of what was said by many of the people here. It's like you choose to not see what is being said and instead carry on with your conclusion.



 

tsogud said:

Maybe it feels that way because maybe *GASP* you're wrong in your conclusion??? No one that I saw dismissed you as though you said nothing. What I saw is that you came in with a radical idea and people were trying to figure out where you were coming from and were debating your conclusion you set forward because most here feel legalization and legislation is the way to deal with these issues. 

That last paragraph was really sexist and incredibly ignorant of what was said by many of the people here. It's like you choose to not see what is being said and instead carry on with your conclusion.

I could always be wrong I guess, but I remain decidedly unconvinced, much as you remain convinced in your correctness.

Questions like prostitution are largely gendered issues. Does one really not expect me to reach any gendered conclusions or have any gendered observations here?

As I have already pointed out, believing that prostitution is bad for women is NOT a "radical idea", it's the view of most of the world's population most likely. I've provided some survey data to indicate that.