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Jaicee said:
tsogud said:

Well on the topic of anal sex; women can and do achieve orgasm from consensual anal sex. The caveat is that the person doing the penetration needs to know how to perform it properly (sadly most straight cis men don't) and the receiver needs to be knowledgeable enough about their own body to know if it's right for them. Some people just can't do anal due to personal or medical reasons. Men and Women both weren't "designed" to have anal sex, we've just come to figure out that it is another way of having a fulfilling orgasm for both sexes. Anal sex does hurt but it hurts for anybody, especially if it's your first time, it's just the way the anus works but proper knowledge and execution minimizes discomfort/pain and it's perfectly safe to perform. It seems you have some misconceptions of anal sex, it's just one of numerous ways different individuals derive pleasure.

Being an inter-sectional feminist I do agree with most, if not all, of your views but your conclusion to outright ban and outlaw these practices and criminalize these individuals is where you lose me and it's one of the reasons I don't subscribe to your brand of feminism. There are A LOT of wrongs with these practices/industries, some of which you have so eloquently explained, but the fact of the matter is that if we made these things illegal, it will only hurt the women involved. Really, the only way forward that I can see is to legalize and regulate it so we can give the care these women deserve so they have a better standard of living.

I would like to know what you think is the best way to achieve the outlawing of these industries and practices and what should be done with the displaced women that were involved? I'm genuinely curious.

The main effect of legalizing the prostitution of women is and will always be to simply make it more common, not better. While we shouldn't penalize women for working in prostitution, purchasing sex from someone is not principally different from raping them. It really isn't. That's making someone have sex with you who almost certainly wouldn't otherwise, and mind you strictly on their terms at that. That simply cannot be allowed in my book.

As to what should be done with those who are displaced, robust exit support services that would offer temporary accommodation, help in applying for crisis loans or disability benefits, counseling, advocacy, and advice are required to help women successfully transition out of the sex industry and into other fields of work.

(Concerning anal sex, what I have spoken to is the rule of how it is experienced. I won't get any popularity points for pointing this out, but the simple truth of the matter is that the nature of authentic female sexual pleasure tends toward the unfashionably vanilla. And no, I'm not for outlawing anal sex or what have you. I pointed out a connection it's growing commonality and the proliferation of online pornography as part of my larger argument against pornography as an institution and proposed that online pornography should be blocked.)

"purchasing sex from someone is not principally different from raping them."

One involves getting permission, the other doesn't.

The two are different.



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KLAMarine said:

"purchasing sex from someone is not principally different from raping them."

One involves getting permission, the other doesn't.

The two are different.

First of all, that depends on how consensual their prostitution is.

Secondly, my point was that there is no difference in spirit. You're making someone (most likely a rape survivor who doesn't know better) have sex with you who almost certainly wouldn't otherwise, and mind you strictly on their terms at that. If the other person has to dissociate in order to weather the experience, clearly they are miserable. That's not what sex is supposed to be like.



coolbeans said:

Whoa!  Alarm bells are going off, mainly due to the "principally different" part.  Sure, she isn't looking to sleep with you without said money but...how often ISN'T money the equation for voluntary transactions?  Whether she turns down doing that sort of work or not, she'd still have agency (unless a trafficking victim which is something else entirely).  That's worlds apart from the repulsive violation of another's body in regards to rape.

We're talking about sex here, not handing someone a burger through the drive-through window. Just making sure we're on the same page in terms of grasping the difference in mental-emotional weight.



Jaicee said:
KLAMarine said:

"purchasing sex from someone is not principally different from raping them."

One involves getting permission, the other doesn't.

The two are different.

First of all, that depends on how consensual their prostitution is.

Secondly, my point was that there is no difference in spirit. You're making someone (most likely a rape survivor who doesn't know better) have sex with you who almost certainly wouldn't otherwise, and mind you strictly on their terms at that. If the other person has to dissociate in order to weather the experience, clearly they are miserable. That's not what sex is supposed to be like.

What do you mean by "no difference in spirit"? You're not forcing someone to have sex with you just because you offer to spend money for it. In your view sex workers seem to have absolutely no agency over their decicions. You're loading your arguments with heavy emotional wight(likely a rape survivor) but are you aware that our proposal would be a major infringement on the right of self determination?

I mean why shouldn't a women, who doesn't rely on sex work to make a living, decide to sell sex with her for money?

Last edited by MrWayne - on 11 August 2019

MrWayne said:

What do you mean by "no difference in spirit"? You're not forcing someone to have sex with you just because you offer to spend money for it. In your view sex workers seem to have absolutely no agency over their decicions. You're loading your arguments with heavy emotional wight(likely a rape survivor) but are you aware that our proposal would be a major infringement on the right of self determination?

No one has the right to buy another person's body! Not as far as I'm concerned! People who buy sex are taking advantage of others who are in a vulnerable mental-emotional state for their own personal benefit. I don't see what is so difficult to understand about that. It's a horrible, parasitic, typically misogynistic practice.

I also don't think that it's actually an audacious thing to suggest the above either. A survey on the topic of prostitution out of Ontario, Canada conducted last summer, for example found that 75% of people (including 81% of women) even in such a liberal-minded environment as that believe prostitution is bad for women and girls, that furthermore six in ten Ontarians oppose legalizing such practices as buying sex, brothel ownership, and pimping, and that just 28% consider being a prostitute a normal job to hold like the term "sex work" implies it to be. And again, that's in a pretty liberal-minded political environment, globally speaking. I point it out because people here are treating me like I'm some kind of aberrant, dangerous freak of nature for holding a perfectly normal opinion that aligns with that of probably most of the world's population (and especially its women) on this subject. It's this community that holds the unusual opinions when it comes to matters like prostitution, not me. I may be a radical feminist, but you don't exactly have to be one to find prostitution problematic!

Last edited by Jaicee - on 11 August 2019

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Jaicee said:
coolbeans said:

Whoa!  Alarm bells are going off, mainly due to the "principally different" part.  Sure, she isn't looking to sleep with you without said money but...how often ISN'T money the equation for voluntary transactions?  Whether she turns down doing that sort of work or not, she'd still have agency (unless a trafficking victim which is something else entirely).  That's worlds apart from the repulsive violation of another's body in regards to rape.

We're talking about sex here, not handing someone a burger through the drive-through window. Just making sure we're on the same page in terms of grasping the difference in mental-emotional weight.

I follow you on the mental-emotional complexities; however, the base of both occupations comes back to said workers still having agency over their bodies* and deciding to agree to the transaction.  A trade of x value for y value.  A man forcing himself onto another man/woman without their consent is absolutely vile and doesn't share this key aspect with prostitution.   

*(to emphasize again: this is disregarding the uglier stories of sex trafficking to focus on the principle of this argument)



coolbeans said:

I follow you on the mental-emotional complexities; however, the base of both occupations comes back to said workers still having agency over their bodies* and deciding to agree to the transaction.  A trade of x value for y value.  A man forcing himself onto another man/woman without their consent is absolutely vile and doesn't share this key aspect with prostitution.   

*(to emphasize again: this is disregarding the uglier stories of sex trafficking to focus on the principle of this argument)

You're not getting it. My point in comparing prostitution and rape is that, once the transaction is made, the one party, for all intents and purposes, LOSES their free will, their bodily autonomy, and they DON'T typically enjoy it! I have but proposed that such a surrender should not be an option. That's not the same thing as taking away a woman's self-determination, but more like assuring it by removing the commercial factor. That's how I view it.



Jaicee said:
coolbeans said:

I follow you on the mental-emotional complexities; however, the base of both occupations comes back to said workers still having agency over their bodies* and deciding to agree to the transaction.  A trade of x value for y value.  A man forcing himself onto another man/woman without their consent is absolutely vile and doesn't share this key aspect with prostitution.   

*(to emphasize again: this is disregarding the uglier stories of sex trafficking to focus on the principle of this argument)

You're not getting it. My point in comparing prostitution and rape is that, once the transaction is made, the one party, for all intents and purposes, LOSES their free will, their bodily autonomy, and they DON'T typically enjoy it! I have but proposed that such a surrender should not be an option. That's not the same thing as taking away a woman's self-determination, but more like assuring it by removing the commercial factor. That's how I view it.

That's not how it works at all. They can stop at any time.  That's legally how it works.  

If you're in the middle of sex, you are free to leave at any time.  

Someone's consent is only given in the moment.  And it can be taken away at any moment.  



Jaicee said:
coolbeans said:

I follow you on the mental-emotional complexities; however, the base of both occupations comes back to said workers still having agency over their bodies* and deciding to agree to the transaction.  A trade of x value for y value.  A man forcing himself onto another man/woman without their consent is absolutely vile and doesn't share this key aspect with prostitution.   

*(to emphasize again: this is disregarding the uglier stories of sex trafficking to focus on the principle of this argument)

You're not getting it. My point in comparing prostitution and rape is that, once the transaction is made, the one party, for all intents and purposes, LOSES their free will, their bodily autonomy, and they DON'T typically enjoy it! I have but proposed that such a surrender should not be an option. That's not the same thing as taking away a woman's self-determination, but more like assuring it by removing the commercial factor. That's how I view it.

Do you similarly believe that other forms of consensual sex which utilize unequal power dynamics such as bondage or S&M should also be outlawed?



Jaicee said:
MrWayne said:

What do you mean by "no difference in spirit"? You're not forcing someone to have sex with you just because you offer to spend money for it. In your view sex workers seem to have absolutely no agency over their decicions. You're loading your arguments with heavy emotional wight(likely a rape survivor) but are you aware that our proposal would be a major infringement on the right of self determination?

No one has the right to buy another person's body! Not as far as I'm concerned! People who buy sex are taking advantage of others who are in a vulnerable mental-emotional state for their own personal benefit. I don't see what is so difficult to understand about that. It's a horrible, parasitic, typically misogynistic practice.

I also don't think that it's actually an audacious thing to suggest the above either. A survey on the topic of prostitution out of Ontario, Canada conducted last summer, for example found that 75% of people (including 81% of women) even in such a liberal-minded environment as that believe prostitution is bad for women and girls, that furthermore six in ten Ontarians oppose legalizing such practices as buying sex, brothel ownership, and pimping, and that just 28% consider being a prostitute a normal job to hold like the term "sex work" implies it to be. And again, that's in a pretty liberal-minded political environment, globally speaking. I point it out because people here are treating me like I'm some kind of aberrant, dangerous freak of nature for holding a perfectly normal opinion that aligns with that of probably most of the world's population (and especially its women) on this subject. It's this community that holds the unusual opinions when it comes to matters like prostitution, not me. I may be a radical feminist, but you don't exactly have to be one to find prostitution problematic!

Here lies the problem, not all sex workers are in a vulnerable mental-emotional state. If prostitution is "buying another person's body" then so is every other work. So I disagree with you both for moral and for practical reasons.

I know that world wide speaking most people would disagree with me but that's not really a argument.

Jaicee said:
coolbeans said:

I follow you on the mental-emotional complexities; however, the base of both occupations comes back to said workers still having agency over their bodies* and deciding to agree to the transaction.  A trade of x value for y value.  A man forcing himself onto another man/woman without their consent is absolutely vile and doesn't share this key aspect with prostitution.   

*(to emphasize again: this is disregarding the uglier stories of sex trafficking to focus on the principle of this argument)

You're not getting it. My point in comparing prostitution and rape is that, once the transaction is made, the one party, for all intents and purposes, LOSES their free will, their bodily autonomy, and they DON'T typically enjoy it! I have but proposed that such a surrender should not be an option. That's not the same thing as taking away a woman's self-determination, but more like assuring it by removing the commercial factor. That's how I view it.

Same can be said about every other work. Also if you legalise prostitution you can assure that sex workers don't have to do everything the customers want.

Edit: Actually the-pi-guy puts it perfectly.

Last edited by MrWayne - on 11 August 2019