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EricHiggin said:
sundin13 said:

Nobody thinks that removing guns will completely solve the problem. It largely seems to be anti-gun control individuals who are holding that up like they will never budge an inch unless that ridiculous standard it met. The goal is not preventing 100% of crime, it is reducing it and making people be safer. Not every single person mind you, but generally.

As such, your final question is inherently ridiculous. We don't need to figure out how to prevent 100% of crime for us to prevent some other percentage of crime.

It's not just crime though. You at the very least have to figure out how to guarantee the armed, non aggressor individuals that they will be safe. No gun owner who feels safer with a gun is going to give it up if you tell them there is still a chance they could be killed by someone with a gun or another type of weapon. In that case it only makes sense to keep their guns so they have an equal chance or advantage against an attacker.

You don't though.

What you are asking is literally impossible. You cannot guarantee anyone, no matter what weapon they are or are not carrying, will be safe and there is no reason to expect that or hold that up as the standard gun control legislation needs to meet. Legislation is not designed to protect one individual, it is designed for the greater good. If a law prevents thousands of crimes, but allows one that wouldn't have happened without the law, that is a damn good law.

Further worth noting that gun control isn't about taking everyone's guns, but we've already gone over that.



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Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

So the weak started the weapon creation war and now they are losing so the strong should stop it and 'fix it' and hope for the best?

It's better to feel safe in a club and get shot dead than to feel scared and get shot dead, or have a chance because you can also have a gun?

Guns don't totally fix the issue, everyone knows this. The problem is that people seem to think getting rid of guns will completely solve the problem and it won't either. So if nobody has figured out a way for everyone to truly BE safe, then why change if you're a person who feels safe because you have a gun?

No. People of one nation vs people of another, which basically means one Gov vs another, unless you go way way back in history. Plus isn't that what the second amendment is partially for? So the people can protect themselves from the Gov and it's military might

I have no clue what you are talking about with this weak analogy.  Guns was not brought into the equation to give the weak an advantage.  Guns was brought into the equation because it was more effective at killing then using a knife or sword.  A gun is a killing weapon and its purpose is to kill.

As to your second paragraph, you have the same mentality that has us here today.  Why change because nothing will ever be 100% fixed.  Let's continue to go down the rabbit hole where we never look for any solutions, attempt any solutions and keep the status quo. Let everyone in the use feel they need to be armed in order to be safe walking the street, going to a movie, Church, walmart you name it.  Lets get America 100% armed and from there we can start deciding on how lethal are guns are because once everyone is armed well, you want to be the person who can drop the other person in one shot not 2.

So if guns were completely removed from society, everyone would feel completely safe knowing there are nations out there with guns and even nukes who look to do America harm? Some who could wipe out the entirety of America with just a portion of them? Sure they haven't been dropped in a long time, but when is the last time you were shot at? Yet you feel scared of being shot, and removing guns would somehow make you feel safe?

Why do nations like the U.S. and Russia have so many nukes? How many times have they used them against each other? Why? Maybe it has something to do with mutual destruction? So if everyone has a gun and knows how to use it, and you're face to face with someone with a gun, what's the point in using it if you're both likely to suffer from it? Aside from a lunatic with a gun who doesn't care about the consequences, but how is that any different than a lunatic who gains power to a country and it's weapons? Aren't Trump and Putin both a little off their rocker? Isn't Putin and Russia a powerful enemy of America? Removing guns in America will remove the fear of death altogether for Americans?

What if the media wasn't always pushing gun violence like it's just across the street coming for you anytime now, or how a simple tweet from the Prez has apparently pushed NK to the brink of nuclear war with America? Could everyone possibly live a little more fearless?

Maybe while 'fixing' the second amendment, they should also 'fix' the first amendment at the same time, killing two birds with one stone age weapon, because why not?



sundin13 said:
EricHiggin said:

It's not just crime though. You at the very least have to figure out how to guarantee the armed, non aggressor individuals that they will be safe. No gun owner who feels safer with a gun is going to give it up if you tell them there is still a chance they could be killed by someone with a gun or another type of weapon. In that case it only makes sense to keep their guns so they have an equal chance or advantage against an attacker.

You don't though.

What you are asking is literally impossible. You cannot guarantee anyone, no matter what weapon they are or are not carrying, will be safe and there is no reason to expect that or hold that up as the standard gun control legislation needs to meet. Legislation is not designed to protect one individual, it is designed for the greater good. If a law prevents thousands of crimes, but allows one that wouldn't have happened without the law, that is a damn good law.

Further worth noting that gun control isn't about taking everyone's guns, but we've already gone over that.

Correct, so you give them the choice to defend themselves with a weapon if they so choose. A weapon that makes them feel safe based on it's usefulness, within reason.

America was built around the individuals rights first. If it wasn't, then the second amendment wouldn't exist, because if the Gov ever came after you, it was obviously for the greater good, right? So why give individuals the right to bear arms? Neither would the first, because the Gov or media would steer you in the right direction as to how to conduct your speech, if not speak for you, because it would be for the greater good, right?

It just so happens that when you put individuals first, it also tends to help the collective overall as well.



I heard Trump got cucked this weekend, but I didn't know the meaning was so literal.

Right in front of his face! :P

His (illegitimate, no doubt) daughter is next:

Last edited by Jumpin - on 27 August 2019

I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

EricHiggin said:
sundin13 said:

You don't though.

What you are asking is literally impossible. You cannot guarantee anyone, no matter what weapon they are or are not carrying, will be safe and there is no reason to expect that or hold that up as the standard gun control legislation needs to meet. Legislation is not designed to protect one individual, it is designed for the greater good. If a law prevents thousands of crimes, but allows one that wouldn't have happened without the law, that is a damn good law.

Further worth noting that gun control isn't about taking everyone's guns, but we've already gone over that.

Correct, so you give them the choice to defend themselves with a weapon if they so choose. A weapon that makes them feel safe based on it's usefulness, within reason.

America was built around the individuals rights first. If it wasn't, then the second amendment wouldn't exist, because if the Gov ever came after you, it was obviously for the greater good, right? So why give individuals the right to bear arms? Neither would the first, because the Gov or media would steer you in the right direction as to how to conduct your speech, if not speak for you, because it would be for the greater good, right?

It just so happens that when you put individuals first, it also tends to help the collective overall as well.

I personally find your opinion to be ridiculous, but that is really all we have here. Your opinion is that you think we should put individual rights above the safety of our citizens. Sure, thousands of people get murdered every year, but that is a small price to pay. Typically when I have discussions with people who are anti-gun control, they aren't quite as honest about the fact that they value guns over lives.

That said, I think you have realize that this argument is inherently flawed, as it is not upheld as a standard in most areas. Some degree of restriction of individual rights is seen in virtually every aspect of life, including gun ownership. To apply this concept evenly, you would have to remove scores of laws which few people would oppose such as restricting firearm access to those with criminal convictions or mental illness, or even removing things like speed limits. Both of which are restrictions of individual freedoms which benefit the collective so I have to say that your final point is far too reductive to be of value.

Finally, I just want to say this. The most important, and most fundamental right is the right to life. I feel this is too often overlooked by anti-gun control advocates. This is considered an inalienable right in the Declaration of Independence and protecting that right is considered to be one of the core functions of government. As such, the government has a responsibility to act in order to protect its citizens. In discussions of gun control, both the Inalienable right to life and the Second Amendment must be considered in the discussion.



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Don't worry about breaking the law; I'll pardon you.

Also, *grabs popcorn*

Last edited by TallSilhouette - on 28 August 2019

TallSilhouette said:

Also, *grabs popcorn*

I wonder if the reason for that might be more that Fox News started to openly call him out, especially host Shep Smith:

In, other words, the Network is not blindly supporting him anymore, which certainly will hurt him, both on a personal level (considering his hubris and ego) and on a political level.



Jumpin said:

I heard Trump got cucked this weekend, but I didn't know the meaning was so literal.

Right in front of his face! :P

His (illegitimate, no doubt) daughter is next:

Proving Trump right one perfectly timed picture at a time?



sundin13 said:
EricHiggin said:

Correct, so you give them the choice to defend themselves with a weapon if they so choose. A weapon that makes them feel safe based on it's usefulness, within reason.

America was built around the individuals rights first. If it wasn't, then the second amendment wouldn't exist, because if the Gov ever came after you, it was obviously for the greater good, right? So why give individuals the right to bear arms? Neither would the first, because the Gov or media would steer you in the right direction as to how to conduct your speech, if not speak for you, because it would be for the greater good, right?

It just so happens that when you put individuals first, it also tends to help the collective overall as well.

I personally find your opinion to be ridiculous, but that is really all we have here. Your opinion is that you think we should put individual rights above the safety of our citizens. Sure, thousands of people get murdered every year, but that is a small price to pay. Typically when I have discussions with people who are anti-gun control, they aren't quite as honest about the fact that they value guns over lives.

That said, I think you have realize that this argument is inherently flawed, as it is not upheld as a standard in most areas. Some degree of restriction of individual rights is seen in virtually every aspect of life, including gun ownership. To apply this concept evenly, you would have to remove scores of laws which few people would oppose such as restricting firearm access to those with criminal convictions or mental illness, or even removing things like speed limits. Both of which are restrictions of individual freedoms which benefit the collective so I have to say that your final point is far too reductive to be of value.

Finally, I just want to say this. The most important, and most fundamental right is the right to life. I feel this is too often overlooked by anti-gun control advocates. This is considered an inalienable right in the Declaration of Independence and protecting that right is considered to be one of the core functions of government. As such, the government has a responsibility to act in order to protect its citizens. In discussions of gun control, both the Inalienable right to life and the Second Amendment must be considered in the discussion.

I never said the individual get's uncontrolled freedom, I just said the individual comes first. Kind of like how Trump never said the rest of the world can suffer needlessly, he just said America comes first. One way or another, no matter what stance you take, someone ends up better off than someone else period. There's no way around it, it just depends on who you decide get's the upper hand. When the upper hand goes to the individual, it tends to help the collective overall as well. Just look at how long the U.S. and it's documents have lasted and where America stands today as a whole.



EricHiggin said:
Machiavellian said:

I have no clue what you are talking about with this weak analogy.  Guns was not brought into the equation to give the weak an advantage.  Guns was brought into the equation because it was more effective at killing then using a knife or sword.  A gun is a killing weapon and its purpose is to kill.

As to your second paragraph, you have the same mentality that has us here today.  Why change because nothing will ever be 100% fixed.  Let's continue to go down the rabbit hole where we never look for any solutions, attempt any solutions and keep the status quo. Let everyone in the use feel they need to be armed in order to be safe walking the street, going to a movie, Church, walmart you name it.  Lets get America 100% armed and from there we can start deciding on how lethal are guns are because once everyone is armed well, you want to be the person who can drop the other person in one shot not 2.

So if guns were completely removed from society, everyone would feel completely safe knowing there are nations out there with guns and even nukes who look to do America harm? Some who could wipe out the entirety of America with just a portion of them? Sure they haven't been dropped in a long time, but when is the last time you were shot at? Yet you feel scared of being shot, and removing guns would somehow make you feel safe?

Why do nations like the U.S. and Russia have so many nukes? How many times have they used them against each other? Why? Maybe it has something to do with mutual destruction? So if everyone has a gun and knows how to use it, and you're face to face with someone with a gun, what's the point in using it if you're both likely to suffer from it? Aside from a lunatic with a gun who doesn't care about the consequences, but how is that any different than a lunatic who gains power to a country and it's weapons? Aren't Trump and Putin both a little off their rocker? Isn't Putin and Russia a powerful enemy of America? Removing guns in America will remove the fear of death altogether for Americans?

What if the media wasn't always pushing gun violence like it's just across the street coming for you anytime now, or how a simple tweet from the Prez has apparently pushed NK to the brink of nuclear war with America? Could everyone possibly live a little more fearless?

Maybe while 'fixing' the second amendment, they should also 'fix' the first amendment at the same time, killing two birds with one stone age weapon, because why not?

Lol, going self righteous on us are we.  To bad we have those pesky amendments in the constitution.  Anyway your whole play here doesn't hold water.  Even your Nuke analogy still leaves out how the US and other Nuke capable countries try to prevent others countries from developing their own Nukes.  If your logic was so sound then everyone should have nukes which in the bigger scheme sounds silly.

I guess you forgot all about those cowboys days which is pretty much where you want us to go back to.  Everyone with a gun would somehow stop all the killing and the murdering which is some very pie in the sky dream since history has already shone this isn't the case.  What would happen as it has happened in the past is that if everyone has a gun, then the gun will be the solution to all problems.  What you are advocating for is an America where you have to be armed.  Where you cannot go into your local store, church, school, concert you name it without carrying a gun.  Where you only feel safe if you are carrying a deadly weapon to kill your neighbor because you fear they are armed.  Yep sounds like a great way to live.