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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

uran10 said:
haxxiy said:

Come on folks, tossing the "moderate" label on Warren as if it were some insult, even if it were true, it's just lame. She's to the left of probably 80% of the American populace. If you want a candidate that has never attacked anyone else in the race, then Bloomberg is actually the guy for you.

I honestly wish it weren't, considering the awkwardness it causes to party members later in the generals, but that has always been part of the game.

And that's definitely not the case. 80% of the american populace? Really? Are you sure about that? You're under the impression that americans are center right or right of center when that is not the case in the slightest. Do you want to know how I can say that? Look at bernies Left wing Agenda. Remove Bernie, and the dumb socialist labels from them.

Now Look at polling data on these issues, all of the issues that Bernie is running on. Guess what? They're popular. Why is it that all these left wing ideas are Popular if America is some center right wing country? It's cause its not. She's a Moderate. Look at her platform, she's moon walked away from M4A and no Moren, she wasn't being "honest" about how to pay for it. She revealed a plan that said "I'll fight for a public option and put a regressive tax to pay for it just so I can say the middle class wont have to pay more in taxes". It was foolish and the plan is a dud. Bernie has told you how he'll pay for M4A so many times yet he keeps getting asked the same question when the fact of the matter is. ITS CHEAPER THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW AND COVERS EVERYONE! But Yes, with that out of the way. If you're bringing me means tested solutions to problems as the "best option", then you're giving me the "moderate" position. Student Loan debt is a problem, and will probably cause another crash. Let's get rid of some of it instead of all, that will totally fix the issue. I mean, If we're talking about the people in congress she's definitely to the left of most of them, but considering most of them are corporate sellouts that's really not that hard to do. But if you really compare her to the general public which btw is economically "Liberal" but Culturally more conservative then depending on the metric you're either dead wrong or right. But in the grand scheme of things, you're definitely just wrong.

In other words, look at the ideas, look at where they are on the scale and look at how they poll. If americans are saying they're for lefty ideas, when the person you're saying is not a moderate is trying for watered down versions of these ideas.... well..... I think that speaks for itself.

Moren said:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/medicare-for-all-isnt-that-popular-even-among-democrats/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/245462/democrats-favor-moderate-party-gop-conservative.aspx

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/482469-majority-in-new-poll-says-they-would-not-vote-for-socialist-gallup

https://news.gallup.com/poll/245813/leans-conservative-liberals-keep-recent-gains.aspx

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/442292-poll-majority-view-socialism-as-incompatible-with-american-values

It's not like you can say a $15 minimum wage or legalizing marijuana are the popular ultra left wing ideas Sander is running on since virtually everyone in the field embraces these and have been floating around since Obama's second term. So it's not like even he came up with them when he ran against Clinton.

Or if the country is that much to the left as you say, why is it that even within the ~ 30% or so of the American electorate that identifies as a Democrat, half of them aren't going to choose Sanders in the primaries if given the chance to pick someone else? I would assume he'd be the consensus pick, considering everyone else would look a Republican by comparison when you consider this 30% of Democrats encompass the most left-leaning Americans.



 

 

 

 

 

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Oh, this stuff is just hilarious, I love it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9q-RrjTz8



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Errm, and apparently this happened: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/14/de-blasio-to-endorse-sanders-115138



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Mnementh said:

Oh, this stuff is just hilarious, I love it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9q-RrjTz8

Megalomaniac Buttigieg is so over the top yet so him...

Bloomberg: Who broke the TV? It's not showing my face *LMAO*



Oh boy...



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OTBWY said:

I think since Bernie has the most minority support, the large latino base in Texas will help him greatly. I'd reckon we are in for a surprise and theres no stopping Bernie unless Biden magically saves his collapsing campaign.

The most recent survey I've found put Sanders' nationwide support among black Democratic voters at 19%, which is third place, but also probably good enough in a several-way contest. As long as he leads the field among Latino voters, that is, which he currently appears to. Not too surprising considering that he's the serious anti-ICE candidate in the field.

I think Bernie's probably going to win the nomination this time for that reason. By all appearances, the neoliberals are realistically too divided to stop that from happening this time around. You're right, sticking with Biden has been and remains the only realistic chance they've got of defeating Sanders. If that much they cannot pull off, then this thing is in the bag.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 15 February 2020

Cerebralbore101 said:

Speaking of Texas and Latinos, how long until Texas turns blue forever and puts an end to Republican presidents? 

I don't know if anything is forever, but how long until it becomes possible for Democrats to win statewide elections again in Texas? Considering that the state is already less than 50% white, I'd say the answer is "whenever Democrats finally decide to activate Latino voters", which I suspect is something that could happen if Bernie Sanders is at the top of the presidential ticket, considering his uniquely principled stand against institutions like ICE.



haxxiy said:

Come on folks, tossing the "moderate" label on Warren as if it were some insult, even if it were true, it's just lame. She's to the left of probably 80% of the American populace. If you want a candidate that has never attacked anyone else in the race, then Bloomberg is actually the guy for you.

I honestly wish it weren't, considering the awkwardness it causes to party members later in the generals, but that has always been part of the game.

Current polling on the issues indicates that most Americans are pretty much aligned with Bernie Sanders on economic policy. Specifically, most of the public supports the Green New Deal, some form of Medicare-for-all (specifically, Sanders is starting to win the argument in favor of a single-payer system, as I've pointed out before), tuition-free college, and a $15/hour minimum wage. Those are all mainstream positions in today's America.

Conversely though, the public is more moderate than the progressive Democrats on social policy. The general public broadly supports same-sex marriage, but believes that abortion is immoral and should only be legal in the first trimester. Similarly, opinion polling consistently suggests that the public broadly opposes Trump's border wall, supports the introduction of a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, and believes that immigrants are fundamentally good for the country. However, the polling also indicates that the public is, conversely, broadly against affording undocumented immigrants with access to taxpayer-funded programs of social uplift like Medicare and Medicaid, and certainly opposes abolishing ICE. (The Latino community has a different opinion on some of those things, but I'm talking public opinion in the country overall.) Also, 60% of Americans support the death penalty.

Now: Consider that Elizabeth Warren is literally hopping with excitement for unisex prisons. Consider that Bernie Sanders believes that the Boston Marathon bomber should have the right to vote. Consider that both Warren and Sanders have expressed openness to legalizing brothels in the course of this campaign. Do these sound like mainstream opinions to you? (Spoiler: only 37% of Americans consider pornography to be morally acceptable; it's less popular than abortion. How do you think the public feels about formal prostitution?)

My point is that, yes, these candidates, both of them, definitely embrace some views that could be considered left of where the general consensus is. The ideas highlighted in the paragraph immediately preceding this one (unisex prisons, voting rights for convicted terrorists, legalizing brothels) qualify as left of where I stand, let alone of where Jane and Joe Average Americans are.

These things said, the public, including me, is also broadly willing to vote for somebody who doesn't agree with them on just everything so long as that candidate is perceived as more aligned with their views and interests than the alternative(s) overall. To that end, whoever the eventual Democratic nominee is can afford to take some positions that are left of overall public opinion here and there.

My point though is that there's no question in my mind that these are both left wing candidates. It's silly of anyone to suggest otherwise.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 15 February 2020

When is Biden dropping out? When is the MSM gonna turn their back against him and ask him to drop out? He's become a nuisance that's taking away votes more favorable candidates like from Pete & Amy. He'll be under fire from the very people that championed him very soon.



Jaicee said:
OTBWY said:

I think since Bernie has the most minority support, the large latino base in Texas will help him greatly. I'd reckon we are in for a surprise and theres no stopping Bernie unless Biden magically saves his collapsing campaign.

The most recent survey I've found put Sanders' nationwide support among black Democratic voters at 19%, which is third place, but also probably good enough in a several-way contest. As long as he leads the field among Latino voters, that is, which he currently appears to. Not too surprising considering that he's the serious anti-ICE candidate in the field.

I think Bernie's probably going to win the nomination this time for that reason. By all appearances, the neoliberals are realistically too divided to stop that from happening this time around. You're right, sticking with Biden has been and remains the only realistic chance they've got of defeating Sanders. If that much they cannot pull off, then this thing is in the bag.

Oh, hmm. I was going by this but perhaps it is not as recent as your data: https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-leads-all-democratic-candidates-support-non-white-voters-new-polls-show-1486807 It's also not very specific. But I do think that Biden's troubles will make them move over to Sanders more than likely. I can't imagine them moving over to Pete.