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Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

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uran10 said:

Just gonna leave this here:

Who better to know if a industry is corrupt then someone who worked in it.  Now does that mean the candidate is corrupt that's something totally different.



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Machiavellian said:
uran10 said:

Just gonna leave this here:

Who better to know if a industry is corrupt then someone who worked in it.  Now does that mean the candidate is corrupt that's something totally different.

The problem being the name cited is one of the corrupt parties... just saying



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I don't get why some of the more establishment Dems try to point to "Bernie or Bust" like they're the problem. No they are not the problem, they are exercising their right to vote for exactly who they want. The actual problem is when you peddle out candidates like Clinton and Biden and then shrug your shoulders and say "well I'd rather have the lesser of two evils so you all need to vote with me!" With that mentality nothing will ever change as a party, let alone as a nation!

I mean, why even have the damn primary if we all just need to rally around the apparent frontrunner even if we don't quite see eye to eye with said candidate on a number of issues (which we don't even know at the moment, it very well could be Bernie this time!) And unlike 2016, this time there are at least FOUR candidates I like and would support over Trump. It's no longer "Bernie or bust" for me but rather simply "progressive" or bust. Or at least someone I feel exists somewhat outside the system and truly offers new ideas that would make a positive change. Right now that is Bernie, Tulsi, Yang, Marianne Williamson. Would have been Gravel too if he was still running.

But that probably still won't be enough for some.



uran10 said:
Jaicee said:

Well here comes Uran with a new video from The Hill explaining how Ayanna Pressley is a liar, a fraud, and a shill for big business and the military industrial complex. What do you want to bet? I have no money to spare, but it's not as though making such a bet would constitute a risk and there are so few sure ways of making a buck these days.

Unfortunately for you, you're wrong. But I will say I never cared for Pressley and she was the only Justice Dem I've been sceptical of from the start, especially considering she endorsed Hillary and tried to make the case that she was more progressive than bernie so.... yea. I don't exactly consider that endorsement "amazing". But she does love Israel so........ anyway everyone knew she was gonna endorse Warren, same state, and the fact that she is more pro establishment than the rest. Anyway that's all I'll say on that, Its good to know that you take the time to watch Krystal and Sagaar tho :)

Actually let me say one more thing: I follow politician's records and rhetoric. Me being critical of Warren comes from her proving to me that she's not a fighter nor really truly progressive. She co-opts ideas, waters them down and does this means tested everything. In a comparison with Bernie she's a watered down version in almost every way and on top of that, she's just not a fighter. She's been late to how many parties? She's said one thing that calls out the establishment just to backpedal how many times? The Worst thing was her waffling on M4A and now that she's released her god awful plan that would hurt not only the middle class but small businesses, that's also full of loopholes... well... you get the point now. I like AOC, I love Rashida Tlaib and I love Ilhan. They all have flaws, and I'm still sceptical of them all but so far, they're doing well. Unfortunately, Pressley has never been in that category for me. I wont call her a liar or a fraud or anything of the sort, but she's trying to do the exact same game as Warren. Play both sides and ride the waves up in power, and just like Warren I'll call her out on that trash the moment she tries it to go higher. And Honestly, I've been wondering if I would support a primary challenger for her or not. So far voting aint garbage... well not completely atleast but I do want someone who is more progressive than her in that seat. I've been thinking like that for a while now and I know Jimmy dore brought it up way back when I watched him when she first got in. He highlighted that she's the sketchiest of them all and I agree. Maybe she'll prove me wrong, maybe not. I'm expecting her not to. My point is, trust goes a long way. I trust AOC, but not that much, she's been doing things that worry me. I really trust Ilhan and Tlaib tho. I'm still watching them both as they both do questionable things, but Tlaib so far seems to be the best. So instead of trying to be like "uran will bring up a video about x,y,z" maybe you should also do deep dives on the politicians and inspect their record, their rhetoric and their actions.

I never supported warren, 2016 was enough for me to go LOL NO. I like Tulsi and I somewhat support her as her FP is great, but the longer she goes on the more missteps I see that give me pause. I can understand Yang, but I think he's a libertarian trojan Horse and since he's now on that big money train, doesn't support M4A but says he'll use the same and his key platform UBI is a very bad implementation of it, I wouldn't ever support him either. and IMO Bernie, Tulsi and Yang are the only people bringing something to the table in the primaries, I legit see reasons why they're running while I don't see why Warren is running. She's running on a watered down Bernie platform and running around "I have a plan". Sounds very egocentric vs the "Not me, Us" That bernie goes around with doesn't it? All of this was to say something very simple and that is I dissect everything and everyone running and who they get endorsed by doesn't really matter to me as it says more about the person endorsing than the candidate half the time. And I hate to break it to you (I don't actually), but someone with Warren's political instincts is food for trump.

@Mnementh I respectfully disagree with your assessment. I quite frankly would hate a Bernie Warren ticket and Bernie himself has said that he wont have a white person on his ticket. A younger, woman of colour is specifically what he said. I do not trust warren as I've stated before and I don't see them on the same side at all. She's taken his signature policy and made a version of it that is so god awful that it would never pass and calls it a long term goal. She ha bad political instincts and honestly, she lies too much. She's known as bobblehead in her state for a reason and that behaviour is what someone does when they're lying. Let me be frank, Warren on Bernie's ticket will hurt Bernie's chances of winning vs trump. She's not the well liked and she keeps making mistakes and on policy like i stated above, she has no reason to be running. IMO she's in there to kill the progressive energy we have just like Obama did. I'm sure you can see the similarities and can see why I say this. I'm sorry but I just can't. After 2016 how can anyone even trust her and support her? How can you do so after standing rock? How can you do so after she lied over and over and over again? I just can't with her she's not trustworthy and she's not a fighter. That's why she has a means tested approach to everything. This is a turning point, a once in a lifetime shot to change trajectory and if Warren wins the primary everything goes up in smoke. We don't have time for middle ground and that's what she is.

I say this as a big Sanders supporter but I don't think you're fair to Warren at all. She and Pressley are progressives in their own right, they just have a different way at tackling the problems we're facing than the rest of the squad and Bernie. I don't agree with Warren's and Pressley's strategy and policies but that doesn't mean they're on the "wrong" side here. Blind cynicism can make friends look like enemies. At the end of the day the Warren and Sanders camp are on the same side of this fight.



 

tsogud said:
uran10 said:

Unfortunately for you, you're wrong. But I will say I never cared for Pressley and she was the only Justice Dem I've been sceptical of from the start, especially considering she endorsed Hillary and tried to make the case that she was more progressive than bernie so.... yea. I don't exactly consider that endorsement "amazing". But she does love Israel so........ anyway everyone knew she was gonna endorse Warren, same state, and the fact that she is more pro establishment than the rest. Anyway that's all I'll say on that, Its good to know that you take the time to watch Krystal and Sagaar tho :)

Actually let me say one more thing: I follow politician's records and rhetoric. Me being critical of Warren comes from her proving to me that she's not a fighter nor really truly progressive. She co-opts ideas, waters them down and does this means tested everything. In a comparison with Bernie she's a watered down version in almost every way and on top of that, she's just not a fighter. She's been late to how many parties? She's said one thing that calls out the establishment just to backpedal how many times? The Worst thing was her waffling on M4A and now that she's released her god awful plan that would hurt not only the middle class but small businesses, that's also full of loopholes... well... you get the point now. I like AOC, I love Rashida Tlaib and I love Ilhan. They all have flaws, and I'm still sceptical of them all but so far, they're doing well. Unfortunately, Pressley has never been in that category for me. I wont call her a liar or a fraud or anything of the sort, but she's trying to do the exact same game as Warren. Play both sides and ride the waves up in power, and just like Warren I'll call her out on that trash the moment she tries it to go higher. And Honestly, I've been wondering if I would support a primary challenger for her or not. So far voting aint garbage... well not completely atleast but I do want someone who is more progressive than her in that seat. I've been thinking like that for a while now and I know Jimmy dore brought it up way back when I watched him when she first got in. He highlighted that she's the sketchiest of them all and I agree. Maybe she'll prove me wrong, maybe not. I'm expecting her not to. My point is, trust goes a long way. I trust AOC, but not that much, she's been doing things that worry me. I really trust Ilhan and Tlaib tho. I'm still watching them both as they both do questionable things, but Tlaib so far seems to be the best. So instead of trying to be like "uran will bring up a video about x,y,z" maybe you should also do deep dives on the politicians and inspect their record, their rhetoric and their actions.

I never supported warren, 2016 was enough for me to go LOL NO. I like Tulsi and I somewhat support her as her FP is great, but the longer she goes on the more missteps I see that give me pause. I can understand Yang, but I think he's a libertarian trojan Horse and since he's now on that big money train, doesn't support M4A but says he'll use the same and his key platform UBI is a very bad implementation of it, I wouldn't ever support him either. and IMO Bernie, Tulsi and Yang are the only people bringing something to the table in the primaries, I legit see reasons why they're running while I don't see why Warren is running. She's running on a watered down Bernie platform and running around "I have a plan". Sounds very egocentric vs the "Not me, Us" That bernie goes around with doesn't it? All of this was to say something very simple and that is I dissect everything and everyone running and who they get endorsed by doesn't really matter to me as it says more about the person endorsing than the candidate half the time. And I hate to break it to you (I don't actually), but someone with Warren's political instincts is food for trump.

@Mnementh I respectfully disagree with your assessment. I quite frankly would hate a Bernie Warren ticket and Bernie himself has said that he wont have a white person on his ticket. A younger, woman of colour is specifically what he said. I do not trust warren as I've stated before and I don't see them on the same side at all. She's taken his signature policy and made a version of it that is so god awful that it would never pass and calls it a long term goal. She ha bad political instincts and honestly, she lies too much. She's known as bobblehead in her state for a reason and that behaviour is what someone does when they're lying. Let me be frank, Warren on Bernie's ticket will hurt Bernie's chances of winning vs trump. She's not the well liked and she keeps making mistakes and on policy like i stated above, she has no reason to be running. IMO she's in there to kill the progressive energy we have just like Obama did. I'm sure you can see the similarities and can see why I say this. I'm sorry but I just can't. After 2016 how can anyone even trust her and support her? How can you do so after standing rock? How can you do so after she lied over and over and over again? I just can't with her she's not trustworthy and she's not a fighter. That's why she has a means tested approach to everything. This is a turning point, a once in a lifetime shot to change trajectory and if Warren wins the primary everything goes up in smoke. We don't have time for middle ground and that's what she is.

I say this as a big Sanders supporter but I don't think you're fair to Warren at all. She and Pressley are progressives in their own right, they just have a different way at tackling the problems we're facing than the rest of the squad and Bernie. I don't agree with Warren's and Pressley's strategy and policies but that doesn't mean they're on the "wrong" side here. Blind cynicism can make friends look like enemies. At the end of the day the Warren and Sanders camp are on the same side of this fight.

And I disagree. I treat Warren the exact same way I treat everyone else. I already said it, I have 1 major issue first, thats money in politics. She's taken big money, used it in her presidential run and plan on taking it again in the general. Money is the root of corruption in american politics. As Bernie says, you can't fight the system while taking its money. She's backpedalled hard on so many issues, lied time and time again and now put out the most disingenuous argument for paying for M4A that will hurt the movement. And for Pressley, I'll just say she endorsed Hillary and claimed hillary was progressive, even tried to say moreso than Sanders. I'm very simple. You take that big money and you're out. On top of that, there are a hell of a lot of red flags. The Media doesn't like progressives, so why does Warren get so much good coverage while Bernie gets a blackout or smeared? I'm sorry but Warren is imo a fake friend to the movement. Honestly tho, look at how they treat Bernie, Tulsi and even Yang vs how they treat Warren. Look at Warren lying and equivocating on most issues when pressed about how she's just like Bernie.

Our main thing is that the system is corrupt and the main reasoning for that is money and that's why we can't get anything we the people want. Why would I think someone who has taken and will take that money is an ally or will fight against that system? We treat Pete like crap when he says that but no one hammers Warren for it in the same way? I'm sorry but no, I don't see them on the same side. Warren's meeting with Hillary, and courting the dem elite, THE SAME PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY WILL DO A SUPER DELEGATE REVOLT AGAINST BERNIE! You can call me cynical, but the more Warren talks, the more she "does", the more I get annoyed and angry cause all I see is this liar who keeps clinging to Bernie's coattail while undermining the movement at the same time. You say they're on the same side, but instead of focusing on issues she used the "Bernie's a white man and we don't need that rn" argument. Sure she didn't specify bernie but we all know the implications. Which ally is gonna throw you under the bus like that? oh yea, the fake / enemy kind!



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uran10 said:
tsogud said:

I say this as a big Sanders supporter but I don't think you're fair to Warren at all. She and Pressley are progressives in their own right, they just have a different way at tackling the problems we're facing than the rest of the squad and Bernie. I don't agree with Warren's and Pressley's strategy and policies but that doesn't mean they're on the "wrong" side here. Blind cynicism can make friends look like enemies. At the end of the day the Warren and Sanders camp are on the same side of this fight.

And I disagree. I treat Warren the exact same way I treat everyone else. I already said it, I have 1 major issue first, thats money in politics. She's taken big money, used it in her presidential run and plan on taking it again in the general. Money is the root of corruption in american politics. As Bernie says, you can't fight the system while taking its money. She's backpedalled hard on so many issues, lied time and time again and now put out the most disingenuous argument for paying for M4A that will hurt the movement. And for Pressley, I'll just say she endorsed Hillary and claimed hillary was progressive, even tried to say moreso than Sanders. I'm very simple. You take that big money and you're out. On top of that, there are a hell of a lot of red flags. The Media doesn't like progressives, so why does Warren get so much good coverage while Bernie gets a blackout or smeared? I'm sorry but Warren is imo a fake friend to the movement. Honestly tho, look at how they treat Bernie, Tulsi and even Yang vs how they treat Warren. Look at Warren lying and equivocating on most issues when pressed about how she's just like Bernie.

Our main thing is that the system is corrupt and the main reasoning for that is money and that's why we can't get anything we the people want. Why would I think someone who has taken and will take that money is an ally or will fight against that system? We treat Pete like crap when he says that but no one hammers Warren for it in the same way? I'm sorry but no, I don't see them on the same side. Warren's meeting with Hillary, and courting the dem elite, THE SAME PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY WILL DO A SUPER DELEGATE REVOLT AGAINST BERNIE! You can call me cynical, but the more Warren talks, the more she "does", the more I get annoyed and angry cause all I see is this liar who keeps clinging to Bernie's coattail while undermining the movement at the same time. You say they're on the same side, but instead of focusing on issues she used the "Bernie's a white man and we don't need that rn" argument. Sure she didn't specify bernie but we all know the implications. Which ally is gonna throw you under the bus like that? oh yea, the fake / enemy kind!

I don't think you've kept up on her campaign then if you're still saying the bolded, iirc she's taken back that statement and has sworn big money off if nominated. That's a huge step. Her strategy is working with establishment Dems, I don't agree with that at all that's why I'm with Bernie and his "no middle ground," but at least she's upfront with it like Bernie is with his stance. Just a different route to get to the same goal. I think they compliment each other really well.

The corruption money has on politics has been hammered in by BOTH of them. They both realize this is a big issue, maybe Warren is a little more soft on this issue, sure I'll grant you that considering she has taken big money before but it's not like it's falling on deaf ears with her. Money in politics is THE issue for progressives like myself so it's nice having two candidates actually talking about it, even though I do think Bernie will deliver better results as he hasn't taken any big money whatsoever.

All in all Warren has perfected her policies throughout this race enough to justify being a progressive and think that's pretty commendable of her. She has faults and shortcomings sure, some of which I've brought attention to on this thread but at the end of the day she's fighting for the same goal.



 

tsogud said:
uran10 said:

And I disagree. I treat Warren the exact same way I treat everyone else. I already said it, I have 1 major issue first, thats money in politics. She's taken big money, used it in her presidential run and plan on taking it again in the general. Money is the root of corruption in american politics. As Bernie says, you can't fight the system while taking its money. She's backpedalled hard on so many issues, lied time and time again and now put out the most disingenuous argument for paying for M4A that will hurt the movement. And for Pressley, I'll just say she endorsed Hillary and claimed hillary was progressive, even tried to say moreso than Sanders. I'm very simple. You take that big money and you're out. On top of that, there are a hell of a lot of red flags. The Media doesn't like progressives, so why does Warren get so much good coverage while Bernie gets a blackout or smeared? I'm sorry but Warren is imo a fake friend to the movement. Honestly tho, look at how they treat Bernie, Tulsi and even Yang vs how they treat Warren. Look at Warren lying and equivocating on most issues when pressed about how she's just like Bernie.

Our main thing is that the system is corrupt and the main reasoning for that is money and that's why we can't get anything we the people want. Why would I think someone who has taken and will take that money is an ally or will fight against that system? We treat Pete like crap when he says that but no one hammers Warren for it in the same way? I'm sorry but no, I don't see them on the same side. Warren's meeting with Hillary, and courting the dem elite, THE SAME PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY WILL DO A SUPER DELEGATE REVOLT AGAINST BERNIE! You can call me cynical, but the more Warren talks, the more she "does", the more I get annoyed and angry cause all I see is this liar who keeps clinging to Bernie's coattail while undermining the movement at the same time. You say they're on the same side, but instead of focusing on issues she used the "Bernie's a white man and we don't need that rn" argument. Sure she didn't specify bernie but we all know the implications. Which ally is gonna throw you under the bus like that? oh yea, the fake / enemy kind!

I don't think you've kept up on her campaign then if you're still saying the bolded, iirc she's taken back that statement and has sworn big money off if nominated. That's a huge step. Her strategy is working with establishment Dems, I don't agree with that at all that's why I'm with Bernie and his "no middle ground," but at least she's upfront with it like Bernie is with his stance. Just a different route to get to the same goal. I think they compliment each other really well.

The corruption money has on politics has been hammered in by BOTH of them. They both realize this is a big issue, maybe Warren is a little more soft on this issue, sure I'll grant you that considering she has taken big money before but it's not like it's falling on deaf ears with her. Money in politics is THE issue for progressives like myself so it's nice having two candidates actually talking about it, even though I do think Bernie will deliver better results as he hasn't taken any big money whatsoever.

All in all Warren has perfected her policies throughout this race enough to justify being a progressive and think that's pretty commendable of her. She has faults and shortcomings sure, some of which I've brought attention to on this thread but at the end of the day she's fighting for the same goal.

I have been following her campaign and that's why I know the big money thing is still a thing. She said she wont do big money fundraisers for her campaign but will do them for the DNC. The same dnc whose total amount raised will be reported with her campaign as one unit and will fund her campaign as well aka she's still taking big money.

Once again with what I said above, she has taken this money and has shown that she will take it again in the general. Bernie will stop the DNC from taking big money, she will not, she will raise it for them. You can't fight a system if you're taking its money. Why would I trust her again? Quick edit here: Big money is a litmus test and the ultimate litmus test in my view. To me, it doesn't matter what comes after, what you're saying etc because you've dipped into corruption. This is where public and private policies are created and its in human nature to payback those who help us. This money she took is all I needed to see. It doesn't matter who takes the money, if you take it I don't care about the rest of your record anymore, you're a traitor. On top of that I can dee dive on her record and her past and its not progressive but that's besides my point. Not supporting/pretending to support the policies I want is one thing, but taking money from the same people you constantly rail against while claiming you're fighting them is laughable.

And I disagree with the perfected policies thing. She's lying about M4A, her payment is a head tax that hurts small business and the middle class and will make it harder for wage increases to be passed, on top of that its exploitable. She doesn't go far enough on student debt, she doesn't tackle medical debt, her foreign policy is equivalent to that of a neoliberal and I could go on. I do not even slightly believe she will fight for what she says. Too much head faking, too much lying motions with the way she talks and moves, too much establishment types who know her saying she will pivot and above all else, if she was truly progressive the media would be treating her like Bernie or Tulsi, but they're propping her up. Red flags everywhere. All in all, she's still failing task #1 and for me, once you've failed it in this cycle you don't count anymore. She can't even say she'll give back the money cause she's already spent it.

Like I said, I judge everyone the same and there are only 2 candidates in this race that get pass my big money litmus test. That's Bernie and Tulsi. Actually i have to look into Williamson she might pass as well, but everyone else has failed, yang has failed recently but everyone else was failing from the get go. I do not trust someone like Warren especially since she is a known Liar and I do not see her actions as an ally to bernie. Its clear that she's trying to undercut him and I'm not here for it. The reason I seem to come off more hostile to Warren is because she's moving like a real fake friend and I see all her moves compared to everyone else because of who I follow on twitter etc. So when she does something good, I see it. When she does the incredibly dumb things she keeps on doing that proves she isn't trustworthy, I see it to.

Last edited by uran10 - on 09 November 2019

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DarthMetalliCube said:
Jumpin said:

Trump is toast!

Additionally, the vast majority of polls had Hillary way way up for the vast majority of the election period in '16. They also tend to be draw from a very small pool in very select areas - only 876 in this case apparently :/. Not quite an indication of like 180 million potential voters. The fact that they even have Buttigieg and Harris over Trump should be a gigantic red flag right there..

So yeaah I'd probably take those with a grain of salt. 

The sample is statistically fine, and ABC News - Washington Post is one of the best pollsters there is.  On the other hand, see Survey Monkey and Change Research, which poll thousands and thousands and their results still are trash.

Of course, at certain points of the 2016 elections, there were outliers even from A-rank pollsters showing Hillary with 8-11 points of advantage - just as many as there were polls showing Trump 2 - 4 points ahead. But most didn't.

This is an average of A-rank polls around this same time during the last election cycle. The few polls measuring generic ballots for the House elections showed more or less the same thing.

Unless you are referring to polls before June or July 2015, when Trump became a serious candidate and started polling first in the Republican primaries. But I don't think you'll disagree that it isn't reasonable to believe nothing of these apply nowadays.



 

 

 

 

 

uran10 said:
Jaicee said:

Well here comes Uran with a new video from The Hill explaining how Ayanna Pressley is a liar, a fraud, and a shill for big business and the military industrial complex. What do you want to bet? I have no money to spare, but it's not as though making such a bet would constitute a risk and there are so few sure ways of making a buck these days.

Unfortunately for you, you're wrong. But I will say I never cared for Pressley and she was the only Justice Dem I've been sceptical of from the start...ETC.

Close enough, PAY UP!



SpokenTruth said:

*sigh*

Former New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg is expected to announce his candidacy for president soon.

Oh brother. Just who we need. Because wealth taxes might mean he has to move to a slightly smaller mansion. Do you see the tears cascading down my face?

I mean yeah, there's a lot of persecution in the world. People of Kurdish decent are tortured and shot for being Kurdish and some American billionaire is facing the prospect of having to pay more taxes, so I guess it's true: everyone in this world suffers.

Hey, one billionaire became president, so now they're ALL entitled to be!

Last edited by Jaicee - on 09 November 2019